YASNY Posted February 7, 2003 Share Posted February 7, 2003 First of all, GREAT post BrandoFan. You have picked up on all the intangibles that make Jose the main man, at least defensively, on the White Sox. Put him back at short, leave him alone and he will have a wonderfully productive season. Nothing sickens me more then errors and mental mistakes (picked off, missing cut off man, throwing to the wrong base, swinging at pitches way out of the zone, etc) Chisoxfn, these are exactly the type of mistakes Jose rarely makes, the mental errors. In fact, his baseball savy more than makes up for the occasional booted ball. I'll say this about his physical errors, someone mentioned focus and I'm sure that is the deal. His errors generally occur in non-crucial situations or when there is no one on base. It's like his focus picks up in tight games, runners on base, needing that next out type of situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted February 7, 2003 Share Posted February 7, 2003 Don't get me wrong, Chisoxfn- for all the clutch defense Jose displays and for the DP he turns, he is still nowhere near the Gold Glove level. All I am saying is that the defensive gap between Jose and Rollins or Clayton is definately narrow-er than the error totals would indicate. He is still "decent" at best when healthy, nothing more. Giving props where they due, as it were. I'd like to see Rollins play 3b while we're at it. ETA: Does anyone rememer a play last year in which Jose actually beat a perfectly routine force out at second base off the bat of Maggs or Hurt (they were safe), in the process almost breaking his leg? He didn't have a prayer; as soon as the lazy 2B SOB decided he didn't have to rush, Jose stuck it to him. That was amazing- vintage Manos hustle!! How do you put a statistical value on something like that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baggio202 Posted February 7, 2003 Share Posted February 7, 2003 Nomar Garciaparra led American League shortstops in errors last year. Errors are the stupidest baseball stat created (followed closely by fielding percentage, which relies on errors). Valentin is a better defensive player the "The Choice." How many did Nomar have though? I'm sure it wasn't anywhere near the 40 manos would put up over a full season at short. manos never made 40 errors in a season...he has had 2 seasons wehre he made 30 plus...out of how many in the league now....ill go on record and say if manos plays the entire year at SS..22 errors this year..we can live with that.. guess you wouldnt have been a fan of luis aparicio either..he was very similiar to manos...great range, great arm...prone to make errors...luis high for errors was 35..one less than manos...he also had another season where he made 30..his lowest total was 12..he averaged about 22 errors a season...very jose valentin-esque...his lifetime fldg pct was 972, jose 's is 956...thats only like 3 errors a season...yet aparicio is considered the best fldg SS in the game not named ozzie or honus.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YASNY Posted February 7, 2003 Share Posted February 7, 2003 yet aparicio is considered the best fldg SS in the game not named ozzie or honus.... And, personally, I don't think Ozzie has anything on Looie. Ozzie made more of what looked like the spectacular plays, but I think Aparicio buttoned down the left side of an infield better than anyone I have ever seen. Casey Stengel once commented that Aparicio, defensively, was worth an average of a hit a game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SI1020 Posted February 7, 2003 Share Posted February 7, 2003 Lollar, Aparacio, Fox and Landis. Few teams in the history of the game were as strong up the middle defensively. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CubKilla Posted February 7, 2003 Share Posted February 7, 2003 I've felt this way about him for a long long time. Two seasons ago I went nuts when he was getting playing time over Joe Crede. Last year, I felt the same way when he was our starting 3rd baseman. Please. Crede's call-up was delayed by one man and one man only. K-LAYTON!!!!! End of story. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baggio202 Posted February 7, 2003 Share Posted February 7, 2003 Lollar, Aparacio, Fox and Landis. Few teams in the history of the game were as strong up the middle defensively. i never seen those guys play but my understanding on lollar was he was a below average defensive player..is that true??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted February 7, 2003 Share Posted February 7, 2003 I think he will get better defensively (ton of DP, difficult "saves", etc), but I agree with you that the lapses in concentration and occasional errant throws will probaby remain for he is the kinda dude who forces the issue big time. Still, don't you agree that if Jose-Jimenez duo turns the most DPs in the league and Jose keeps error count under 25 (assuming range/cannon are still there), it would mean he ought to be considered a decent SS? It think so. I would never dream his error total dip into single digits...lol Thanks for the kind words Brando. As far as what you proposed on Jose's numbers. If he had 25 errors or less, I'd call him an above average shortstop. I think offensively he's better then most shortstops, even though I wish he'd stop forcing the issue and chase all those bad pitches. I think your right when you talk about Jose and his age. He may just be one of those guys that gets better with age, ala Luis Gonzalez or Rich Gannon in the NFL. Not many even knew of Manos before 2000 with the Sox, and he's put up numbers that very few shortstops have. All he has to do is stay healthy and get the error totals down and I'll actually say that I'd like to have him back next season playing shortstop. Well, unless the Sox want to go get Tejada. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted February 7, 2003 Share Posted February 7, 2003 First of all, GREAT post BrandoFan. You have picked up on all the intangibles that make Jose the main man, at least defensively, on the White Sox. Put him back at short, leave him alone and he will have a wonderfully productive season. Nothing sickens me more then errors and mental mistakes (picked off, missing cut off man, throwing to the wrong base, swinging at pitches way out of the zone, etc) Chisoxfn, these are exactly the type of mistakes Jose rarely makes, the mental errors. In fact, his baseball savy more than makes up for the occasional booted ball. I'll say this about his physical errors, someone mentioned focus and I'm sure that is the deal. His errors generally occur in non-crucial situations or when there is no one on base. It's like his focus picks up in tight games, runners on base, needing that next out type of situation. Oh I know Jose doesn't make many mental mistakes. I was just bringing up what I don't like. He does chase too many horrible pitches and makes too many errors. I think he can solve one of them, and cut back on the other (ie, Errors). If he does those two things I'll be very happy cause I know his other numbers will be better then most shortstops. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted February 7, 2003 Share Posted February 7, 2003 Nomar Garciaparra led American League shortstops in errors last year. Errors are the stupidest baseball stat created (followed closely by fielding percentage, which relies on errors). Valentin is a better defensive player the "The Choice." How many did Nomar have though? I'm sure it wasn't anywhere near the 40 manos would put up over a full season at short. manos never made 40 errors in a season...he has had 2 seasons wehre he made 30 plus...out of how many in the league now....ill go on record and say if manos plays the entire year at SS..22 errors this year..we can live with that.. guess you wouldnt have been a fan of luis aparicio either..he was very similiar to manos...great range, great arm...prone to make errors...luis high for errors was 35..one less than manos...he also had another season where he made 30..his lowest total was 12..he averaged about 22 errors a season...very jose valentin-esque...his lifetime fldg pct was 972, jose 's is 956...thats only like 3 errors a season...yet aparicio is considered the best fldg SS in the game not named ozzie or honus.... Well, I'd like to of seen Aparicio play. From what I've heard he was amazing to watch. As far as the error totals, I'd assume he'd hit 40 if he played every game. Of course thats me assuming. I do think you coul be onto something that if he plays one position all season that he will have fewer errors, soley because he isn't always moving around, having to do so many other things. Shortstop is a very tough position and Jose makes plenty of amazing plays. For the first time ever, you people have actually convinced me of Jose's value and the fact that I am happy with him starting this season and maybe even next (IF he cuts down on the errors and K's) I also agree with some that have said he could hit 30 hr's. This would be the year, but he may lose out on some at bats because he'll be asked to move runners over more often, now that he's in the 2 hole. Of course, I think the entire Sox team should be willing to move guys over, like they did in 2000. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted February 7, 2003 Share Posted February 7, 2003 First of all, GREAT post BrandoFan. You have picked up on all the intangibles that make Jose the main man, at least defensively, on the White Sox. Put him back at short, leave him alone and he will have a wonderfully productive season. Nothing sickens me more then errors and mental mistakes (picked off, missing cut off man, throwing to the wrong base, swinging at pitches way out of the zone, etc) Chisoxfn, these are exactly the type of mistakes Jose rarely makes, the mental errors. In fact, his baseball savy more than makes up for the occasional booted ball. I'll say this about his physical errors, someone mentioned focus and I'm sure that is the deal. His errors generally occur in non-crucial situations or when there is no one on base. It's like his focus picks up in tight games, runners on base, needing that next out type of situation. Oh I know Jose doesn't make many mental mistakes. I was just bringing up what I don't like. He does chase too many horrible pitches and makes too many errors. I think he can solve one of them, and cut back on the other (ie, Errors). If he does those two things I'll be very happy cause I know his other numbers will be better then most shortstops. Jason....you're not starting to like Jose now are you? Anyways.....I really don't think that those 36 errors are that big of a deal....he did that in 2000....in the games he made errors, how many would you bet that the Sox had a sizeable lead at the time of the error(say, 3 runs or more)....I'd guess probably about 10-15 atleast...maybe more. So, defensively, I think we'll see a lot of errors this year out of Jose....because we have an explosive offense and a dominant 1-2 punch along with a good 3-4-5. I could see a 40+ error season coming up....but, IMO, it doesn't necessarily make him a bad SS.....because I think he'll hit .270-.280 with 30 bombs and 90-100 RBI....but that's my opinion....assuming Frank puts up the numbers he has in the past(which I know he will). I think our lineup will be the best in the majors....and our pitching will be good. We have the minor league depth to acquire a need at the deadline, if necessary....we are ready for the season. I can't wait. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elrockinMT Posted February 7, 2003 Share Posted February 7, 2003 Jose Valentin brings something to the White Sox that is key to any winning team. He brings leadership and aggressive play. Jose never gives up and refuses to let others give up. I hope the Sox don't make the mistake of trading him. I see no need to get a Jimmy Rollins especially with the talent we have waiting in the wings. I also can't see us giving up a Jon Rausch after losing Wells and Fogg. The Sox are one of the only teams that can fill its future starters from its wealth of minor league talent. The other being Atlanta. I think the Sox farm system has done a fantactis job of developing young hurlers. Trading them away would be a mistake. KW has made some good moves this year without giving up the farm other than Joe Valentine so let's not start now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted February 8, 2003 Share Posted February 8, 2003 Jose Valentin brings something to the White Sox that is key to any winning team. He brings leadership and aggressive play. Jose never gives up and refuses to let others give up. I hope the Sox don't make the mistake of trading him. I see no need to get a Jimmy Rollins especially with the talent we have waiting in the wings. I also can't see us giving up a Jon Rausch after losing Wells and Fogg. The Sox are one of the only teams that can fill its future starters from its wealth of minor league talent. The other being Atlanta. I think the Sox farm system has done a fantactis job of developing young hurlers. Trading them away would be a mistake. KW has made some good moves this year without giving up the farm other than Joe Valentine so let's not start now. I have to part-disagree, elrockinMT. As much as I love and respect Jose for his on and off field contribution, I would probably do the Rollins trade straight up. If Jose was perfectly healthy all the time ala Tejada or Vizquel and/or was making Sandy Alomar money, then I'd think about it. Of course, this is probably the last year in which Jose is making more than 3 mill a year and the last year Rollins is dirt cheap (he is arbitration eligible after '03; if he has another All-Star appearance this year, he will be asking for Jose Valentin money, more if his agent is Scott Boras LOL!). However, Rauch is a HOF (meaning in the same category as Mark Prior) caliber talent, health issues notwistading. Forget about Kip Wells- if this kid ever get back into 93-95 fastball zone ((which looks like it's 98-100 considering his leg and arm span, his off speed arsenal and intimidation factor), bring his awesome curve, continues to hone slider and change and gets 400 innings under his belt...lights out. Rollins's questionable potential (as he puts on more weight and gets more money his defensive range will decrease and his 45 SB days will magically disappear, trust me on this) and even more questioble hitting ability (680 OPS- are you effin' kidding me?! This isn't 1963) are NOT worth Rauch alone. He isn't worth a healthy Malone and Sanders either, IMO, but you have to give up in order to get something... Our farm system is not nearly as good at this moment as some give it credit for, though, to be fair, there has been a whole lot of promotions in the recent years. We have some talented people in A (Cotts, Honel, Webster, Ring, Stumm) and AA (Malone, Diaz, Fernandez) and AAA (Borchard and Almonte and Valenzula even), but none of them are ready to contribute until 2005. We need to focus on the likes of Lee and Konerko and Jimenez and Rowand and hope and pray that Reindorf has enough sense to expand payroll to 65-70 Mill if we want to compete past 2003... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mathew Posted February 8, 2003 Share Posted February 8, 2003 It is generally suggested that Jose's error cost game about 5 times in 2000, and he won far more likely. Though I don't think you can really track that stuff, but even if he doesn't play well, who cares, he's not Royce. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YASNY Posted February 8, 2003 Share Posted February 8, 2003 It is generally suggested that Jose's error cost game about 5 times in 2000, and he won far more likely. Though I don't think you can really track that stuff, but even if he doesn't play well, who cares, he's not Royce. I remember seeing that broke down after the 2000 season. His errors cost us something like 2 games, and one of those was questionable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted February 8, 2003 Share Posted February 8, 2003 For all it's worth, he cost Mike Sirotka a shutout tie with Pedro at Fenway...There had to be others, but I also remember that considering his 36 errors led the league, the actual amount of games his defense cost/saved actually put him in the middle of the pack, which is where Royce " Super SS Savior!" Clayton was that year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baggio202 Posted February 8, 2003 Share Posted February 8, 2003 For all it's worth, he cost Mike Sirotka a shutout tie with Pedro at Fenway...There had to be others, but I also remember that considering his 36 errors led the league, the actual amount of games his defense cost/saved actually put him in the middle of the pack, which is where Royce " Super SS Savior!" Clayton was that year. ther eis no gaurentee we would have won that game in boston had jose not made that error...it would have still been tied..and judging by the strike zone boston as getting that day i dont think there was a chance in hell we were gonna win.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SI1020 Posted February 8, 2003 Share Posted February 8, 2003 Lollar, Aparacio, Fox and Landis. Few teams in the history of the game were as strong up the middle defensively. i never seen those guys play but my understanding on lollar was he was a below average defensive player..is that true??? Sorry for the delay. In answer to your question IMO NO NO a thousand times NO! Lollar was excellent defensively. I know we have all argued the relative merits and demerits of fielding average, but for catchers I think it is more important than for most other positions. Lollar retired with a .992 fielding percentage. which at the time was one of the highest ever. In 1954 he threw out 18 straight runners trying to steal. He was an excellent handler of pitchers. In a 1957 article authored by Bill Furlong who used to write for the old Chicago American, Billy Pierce said that Lollar helped him get out of many jams. Lollar did have one major weakness. He was probably the slowest man on the basepaths I ever saw. You think Paul Konerko is slow? He's Ricky Henderson compared to Lollar. Lollar was involved in the key play of the 1959 World Series. The Sox were rallying from a two run deficit late in the game ( can't remember the exact inning) when Lollar was thrown out at the plate by at least 15 or twenty feet. End of rally. Dodgers win game 2 and go on to take the Series in 6 games. Good old Sherm was a 7 time all star and a very important part of the 59 team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SI1020 Posted February 8, 2003 Share Posted February 8, 2003 More on Lollar. They started giving the Golden Glove awards in 1957. In that year they did not give two sets of awards, one for each league. Lollar was baseball's first Golden Glove catcher. He also won the AL award in 1958 and 1959. If they had given the award earlier in his career he surely would have won several more. At the time he retired Lollar had the highest lifetime fielding average for a catcher. As of 1995 he was still ranked 1st on the all time list, behind Bill Freehan, Elston Howard and Jim Sundberg. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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