wright has a setback

[BrandoFan]

Like I said, if you choose to pretend like it's the players' fault and/or just a big freakin' coincidence all the while ignoring the evidence and the pervalent opinion (I am not alone in this), go right ahead.

[clujer420]

95-98 mph moving fastball (which was supposed to reach triple digits in the future as doctors promissed

Are you high dude? A doctor says that a guy's fastball is going to reach 100 MPH someday, so then if it doesn't happen, someone f***ed up? Doctors everyday give horrible and incorrect information to their patients, so to use a doctor's "promise" of what will happen in the future as evidence in this debate is preposterous.

[BrandoFan]

Are you high dude?

 

Great retort.

 

Did you even read the whole post or just picked up on the "doctors" part? Do you even know who Barcelo is/was?

[clujer420]

Are you high dude?

 

Great retort.

 

Did you even read the whole post or just picked up on the "doctors" part? Do you even know who Barcelo is/was?

Did you read my whole post, or did you just pick up on the "Are you high?" part?

 

And yes, I know who Barcelo was. He was a pitcher, like so many before him in the sport, who could have been something special, but got injured.

 

I've spoken my side of this debate, and neither one of us is going to change their opinion, so I'm through for now. I've gotta go to work anyway.

 

I'd be interested to hear what Chisoxfn has to say about this, since his opinion seems to be the only one I value around here lately.

[Chisoxfn]

Brando, as far as the prospects, your really overhyping them I think, something White Sox fans are very used to now a days because of the high amount of prospects that have been overhyped over the years. Only the Yankees hype more prospects.

 

Now back to Barcelo, there is no way that the Sox screwed this guy up. If I recall he had arm surgery back when he was in the Giants organization, then came to the Sox and pitched great, but then needed another surgery. The reason was, he never changed his mechanics and some guys just put too much pressure on their arms. Remember that guy with the Devil Rays that broke his arm pitching like twice, same type of thing. Barcelo was amazing, but HOF? I don't think so. The Sox didn't know if he'd ever be able to start and when they acquired him he was mainly considered closer material, but they had some hope that eventually he could make it to the rotation. Someone can check me on that, cause I didn't know as much about baseball at that age.

 

Lets talk Malone. First off, Malone came out of nowhere two years ago. Before that he had always struggled with control and him struggling with it this past season wasn't any shocker. Injuries were the big reason, but he's still a very "raw" pitcher and he's extremely young. Look around the majors and most pitchers don't become "studs" until they are much older, with quite a few year development process. Some shoot up and just stick from the get go, but thats rare. To be honest the Sox don't have the prospects like Wood or Prior those guys were extremely special guys.

 

Malone, don't give up on this kid. The Sox aren't rushing guys anymore, so he won't be seen this year (Not likely, maybe in September), but he'll reach AAA this year and could fight for a job next year, but may end up having more like a year and a half in AAA, which is a good thing. 2 years in AAA can be very good for a young pitcher.

 

In regards to Rauch, once again, I think you look way too much into his injury. Before the injury the guy was good, but overhyped, at least I think he was. Take away his height and he's not quite as special. The guy doesn't have an amazing fastball, but he does throw a very good curve and slider, unfortunately he isn't throwing the slider right now as he's not 100%, imo. I'm not at all the games, so I'm not positive on that, but its what I've heard. Rauch also has a change up that he's working on and his fastball is solid. He's not someone to forget about, but arm injuries take time to get back. This guy was a nobody when the Sox picked him and look what he's turned into.

 

Now talking about Sirotka, the guy was alright, but we didn't screw him up. Him pitching in Japan in the summer did him in, and he wasn't an ace. He was solid, but gave up too many baserunners per inning to ever be a true #1. He was more like a good #2.

 

In regards to the whole coaching thing, I go with Brando. When your in AAA making crap for money and you have a shot at the majors, you listen to your coach, thats what they are there for, to help you. You can say your things, but you can't just refuse. They are going to do all they can to make it to the show and they have to make a good impression on the coaches so they can earn some money as well as fullfill their dream.

[Chisoxfn]

Oh ya with Kris Honel. I think there are some reasons to worry, but I wouldn't worry too much. I think the big reason people are afraid are because of his so called velocity drop, but I think scouts overhyped the fastball from the get go. He's pretty much always thrown 90-91. Its his secondary pitches that are phenomenal, but his heater has good movement too.

 

Then talking about Stumm, that guy is talented, but the arm couldn't handle the stress. He will be pitching again this year eventually. Also, since you mentioned the Cubs, they lost Christensen, Will Ohman, Scott Chiasson, and a few other prospects with arm injuries that they were counting on. Steve Smyth too.

[1549]

Yep. He wasn't the key part of the White Flag deal for nothing: great poise and control for a 20yo; 95-98 mph moving fastball (which was supposed to reach triple digits in the future as doctors promissed), excellent slider and nice, improving off-speed arsenal. Huge, long fingers that would have allowed him to put freaky spin on the ball had he decided to become a truly all-around pitcher later on...

 

Barcelo was not a hof player, injuries happen, you can't blame the fact that Barcelo has been injured each of the past three years all on Nardi...every team in the league has injuries, Mariners 6'10 once stud lefty Ryan Anderson, hurt hasn't pitched last 2 years. John Patterson the D'Backs top pitching prospect has mirrored Rauch in his development, bouncing from injuries to poor springs...Brad Lidge a top Houston youngster has had injuries...it's everywhere dude, so don't act like the sox are a freak thing

[BrandoFan]

Brando, as far as the prospects, your really overhyping them I think

 

Re: "hyping"

 

1. I only talked about 8-10 best of the best (that's what gets me mad)) guys outt of hundereds that are in our ML system.

 

2. Scouts from varying publictions have been VERY high on ALL people I mentioned. Perhaps MORE enthusiastic that your average fan would be.

 

3. Those pitchers were/are going a DAMN good job of justifying the hype.

 

Ginter, West, Biddle, Fogg, Ulacia, etc up VERY good numbers at AA. I mean ERA's under 3.00. Malone was downright dominant. Honel and Stumm were GREAT hs pitchers as well as dominating the A ball. And I don't even need to mention Barcelo, Wells, Garland and Rauch.

 

Re: Nardi and injuries/"mechanical problems"/Kip Wells Syndrom is another story altogether and I don't wish to confuse the two. Malone was reported to have "arm problems" all OF 02 and Jason Stumm was told he had a dead arm in 01 before realzing that it was a TEAR...

Refer to my previous posts for more.

 

Barcelo being "amazing", but not "HOF? WTF? If he has great stuff and, more importantly, maturity, then saying "HOF ceiling" and "amazing" is appropriate. Ditto Rauch. The reaosn Wood, Cruz and Prior are great is because they are HEALTHY and our pitchers are NOT,.

[BrandoFan]

Barcelo was not a hof player

 

Well, he had as good if not better stuff and maturity than Kerry Wood and Mark Prior. Just say you've never seen him pitch healthy and avoid embarassment. Besides, I never said he was a "HOF player", just that he had "HOF ceiling". Too bad his arm fell off.

 

Sox weren't a freak thing

 

You only mentioned a FEW pitchers from different organizations. I mentioned no less than 12-15 quality prospects from just one. Not such an aberration. (Look at Cubs: Kerry Wood is still relatively healthy and Zambrano, Cruz, Prior are looking great. And we had BETTER, deeper for sure, pitching system)

 

 

Quit yer extrapolatin' in other words.

[Chisoxfn]

Barcelo was not a hof player

 

Well, he had as good if not better stuff and maturity than Kerry Wood and Mark Prior. Just say you've never seen him pitch healthy and avoid embarassment. Besides, I never said he was a "HOF player", just that he had "HOF ceiling". Too bad his arm fell off.

 

Sox weren't a freak thing

 

You only mentioned a FEW pitchers from different organizations. I mentioned no less than 12-15 quality prospects from just one. Not such an aberration. (Look at Cubs: Kerry Wood is still relatively healthy and Zambrano, Cruz, Prior are looking great. And we had BETTER, deeper for sure, pitching system)

 

 

Quit yer extrapolatin' in other words.

Embarassment????

 

What are you talking about. I saw him pitch in 2000, but even then that was after one surgery, from him screwing up his arm with the GIANTS.

 

You talk as if all our top 10 prospects are going to become stars. They are called prospects, not stars when you talk about them because most of them will fail, and some will come out of nowhere and make it.

 

I understand a lot of them put up good numbers in AA, AAA, etc, but that doesn't guarantee anything. You also need to make do with many things.

 

Also, look at Wood, healthy??? Look at the injuries he had, now he's healthy, one season over 200 innings though in his entire career.

 

You need to realize not everyone is a hall of famer until they prove it. If everyone that had HOF potential lived up to it, then the hall of fame would be useless and everyteam would have 9 hall of famers on it.

[WhiteSoxPride3035]

If someone has not already posted this today, March 27th, Danny Wright was placed on the 15-day disabled list.

[BrandoFan]

Chisoxfn I didn't say YOU should be embarassed. I was responding to that other dude.

 

You talk as if all our top 10 prospects are going to become stars

 

That's just not fair. I never said that. If you read the comments carefully, I was first talking about Nardi and Co. and only then mentioned some of the better ones (which statistics, empirical evidence and scouts' reports more than support, btw); whether they would become "all-stars" had they stayed healthy/with Sox organizaiton/with different pitching coach is a TOTALLY different issue. I expressed my opinion and didn't feel the need to preface every single statement with a lazy cop-out "...of course most are busts anyway so blaming the organization or Nardi for any wrong-doing is pointless."

 

You need to realize not everyone is a hall of famer until they prove it

 

Oh, common, I only semi-seriously mentioned TWO out of hundreds--no, thousands of prospects. I assumed that those reading it would be smart enough to know that HOF talent is NOT the same thing as HOF career, not by a long shot. Besides, my priginal point was about Nardi and Co; even if you disagree with my assessment of talent, the inordinate amount of injury busts is still a concern.

 

Yes, I do think that Barcelo and Rauch had absolutely amazing skills** and were ruined. Nothing unreasobale there.

 

**- (I am experiencing deja vu all over again typing this) Barcelo: in 99/early 2000 was consistently in 94-97 range, touching 98 on occasion. Yes, doctors indeed did promise that his elbow would actually allow him to reach triple digits, not that he needed it anyway. He slider was a plus-plus pitch and curve/change combo were average at worst. His maturity (even while clearly showing signs of injury while in BP for the Sox, he was still very effective and his walk/inning number was nothing short of excellent for a declining power pitcher) and Pedro-esque fingers were yet another asset which would have ensured a dominant ML; career in my opinion. Rauch: 92-95 fastball; great curve; plus slider; improving change. Great control for someone who is 6'11. He was a pitcher, even more so than Barcelo. You're seriouslyt underestimating his size: when someon with his leg and arm span and size is coming you at a weird angle, as Hawk mentioned, a normally tough 94 mph fastball looks 98-100 mph and is unhittable if spotted. Mix in very good breaking stuff Rauch had and an adequate change and you have someone who is practically untouchable when on. (Add to it 2-3 years of ML experience -Randy Jphnson, Curt Shilling were all that good in their first 500+ innings and you have a making of HOF player. Since Rauch (unlike Wells) was solid mentally, physical health was the only concern. Alas, the worst case scenario happened...sigh. ). The game against the Twins late 2002 was just a tiny glimpse of what could have been (and still could be, but unlikely)

 

Speaking of so-called Sox fans' bias/hype, back in '97-98 (my first year following the Sox)people were saying that Maggs and Lee were not going to amount to much and are overhyoed because they were held back. (Hell, Lee was bashed 6 months ago!) in '99 everyone was screaming that newly acquired Konerko was only let go by the Reds because he failed to prove that he deserved the Minor League PotY and would only be mediocre DH-type for the Sox...Also in '98 Sirotka was considered to be a solid #3-4 at best ...in 2000 everyone bashed Sox for over-praising BOTH Kip Wells and Joh Garland and were dumbfounded as to why a AA pitcher Mark Buerhle of no impressive stuff would be promoted. Same with Fogg in 2001...Oh and if I have to count how many people COMPLETELY gave up on the "career AAAA player" Joe Crede as recently as middle 2002--the very same people who complained that Borchard "is not and will never be McGwire-type" and pronounced that A's won the Bradord-Olivo trade and Jimenez was "just another Yankees bust"...all that for the sake of garden-variety "counter-hyping" as a form of backlash against the team's recent bouts with gross underachievement. The reasoning was as follows: "the team sucks, JR is cheap, management consists of his favorites--therefore the prospects that other scouts deemed worthy must be bad too if they are not producing IMMEDIATELY" or some variation thereof. Afterall Kerry "Jesus" Wood and Mark "Messiah" Prior were dominant right off the bat...

 

It's true- some people are guilty in over-praising prospects and pipe-dreaming...but many are also condemning some really talented guys too soon, often without even SEEING them pitch, hiding behind the "most prospects don't pan out" wisdoms as if "most minor league prospects" have anything to do with Barcelo throwing a screaming 98 mph moving fastball on the outer part of the plate for a K...I guess the "sceptics" claiming that healthy Barcelo and Rauch weren't someting really special are the same bunch who think that, say, Jose Valentin's defense is HORRIBLE, seeing only errors on paper and that Carlos Lee's batspeed is just average because he only hits 25 homers or that Keith Foulke was "god" because of that ERA or that just because not everything can be blamed on Nardi, he (along with people who insisted on hiring him) isn't reponsible for a big part of our pitching ills...one-dimensional thinking is what it is.

[YASNY]

Saying that a prospect should not listen to his coaches is a rediculous statement. These kids are wanting to make the big time. The coaches are baseball lifers, professionals hired by the organization to specifically teach these kids how to play baseball. You can't blame the kids. The Nardi fiasco is one youcan blame directly on Jerry Manual. He selected his pitching coach. As for the guys currently in the minors. most of them have been trained and taught by current Sox pitching coach Don Cooper. Did he screw all these kids up? I really don't think so.

[BrandoFan]

The coaches are baseball lifers, professionals hired by the organization to specifically teach these kids how to play baseball. You can't blame the kids

 

Actually if a (really talented) player busts, part of the blame, perhaps a big one, is still with the kid himself. That goes without saying, and I never intended to pretend othewise despite what a couple of central arguement-ignoring, word-in-the-mouth-putting fellas will have you believe...HOWEVER, many do underestimate the role of a pitching coach on one's development (or lack thereof) and injuries. Sure, Curt Shilling right now, at 37, is too much of a professional and a veteran to listen to his coach TOO MUCH (although I bet he still does- these all-stars not only possess more pure talent than an average pitcherm but also work harder and learn/re-adjust better), but when you're talking about a 19-22yo kid, the role of the pitching coach rises exponentially. It goes without saying that improper instruction not only leads to high ERA's, mechianical problems and "step backs", but also, unfortunately, to career-threatening injuries that do nothing to improve the former three.

 

As far as I am concerned, Barcelo, Rauch, Wright, Sirotka, Stumm, Kane, Malone, West, Biddle, Wells, Ginter, Honel. Fogg, Ulacia and even Garland and Burehle (now) were mishandled at some point. (That's more than a DOZEN of really talented and minor-league dominating pitchers in the span of only 2 years.) I am sure Cooper is not entirely innocent in the matter, either, but Nardi and people who hired him share a larger part of the blame in my book. YMMV.

 

Let's hope I am wrong and Burhle/Galrand don't go down in 2003 and that Diaz, Honel, Wight, Rauch, Malone and Stumm bounce back big time either with our ML team or as major talent-bringing trade bait.

[SoxFan1]

I think everyone is overreating a tad! Chill out people! Nardi did :fyou up the pitching and yes he screwed up a few arms back then but we have a new pitching coach, remember! Honel will be in the majors possibly this year in September or next year for sure. He has got some stuff. Malone, Honel, Munoz, Rauch, Stewart, Sanders, and others have bright futures in the majors! I can honestly say the Sox have one of if not the best minor league pitching prospects in the bigs. Go Sox!

[BrandoFan]

people overrating a tad

 

Nobody but nobody said every single one of these guys should have won a Cy Young in their first year...Sheesh. It was INDEPENDENT scouts who rated them high and it was their actual pitching that did all the talking: Rach, Barcelo, Wells, Fogg, Buehrle, Stumm, Galand, Malone, Ginter, Biddle, Wight, West, Sirotka were all DOMINANT in AA/AAA and showed glimpses of excellence in the major league duty, though, like I said, Barcelo, Rauch, Wells and Wright were FAR from their best when called up for various reason that didn't have anything to do with actual talent. Should I ignore all the evidence to the contrary in favor of good ol' safe truism"most prospects are busts" ?

 

Malone, Honel, Munoz, Rauch, Stewart, Sanders, and others have bright futures in the majors! I can honestly say the Sox have one of if not the best minor league pitching prospects in the bigs

 

Major props for your optimism. But. let's see:

 

-Munoz is a relief pitcher and after what happened to Barcelo, I wouldn't dream to project him as anything but a bullpen guy/5th starter, Sean Lowe in his prime type.

 

-Malone looked awful in 2002. Totally screwed up. Even scouts who had him in the top 30 (in the NATION!) dropped him off their radars. Could be coincidence, sure, but in light of his "arm problems", I don't tihnk so.

 

-Rauch you already know my opinion about.

 

-Even if Honel does get back his mid-90's fastball, he is still only 19-20 and 3-4 years away from contributing on the major league level. He is cocky and I like that, but let's allowhim mature physically (skinny kid to say the least), mechanically (needs a good change or a slider as a third out pitch) and mentally. No more A/AA call-ups.

 

-Sanders? Meh.

 

-Stewart? Parque Lite. Proving me wrong as I type this.

[SoxFan1]

I respect your opinion but youve got to admit, if these guys worked hard enough they could be forces to be reckoned with. Its true. Go Sox!

[Wong & Owens]

Actually if a (really talented) player busts, part of the blame, perhaps a big one, is still with the kid himself.  That goes without saying, and I never intended to pretend othewise despite what a couple of central arguement-ignoring, word-in-the-mouth-putting fellas will have you believe...HOWEVER, many do underestimate the role of a pitching coach on one's development (or lack thereof) and injuries.  Sure, Curt Shilling right now, at 37, is too much of a professional and a veteran to listen to his coach TOO MUCH (although I bet he still does- these all-stars not only possess more pure talent than an average pitcherm but also work harder and learn/re-adjust better), but when you're talking about a 19-22yo kid, the role of the pitching coach rises exponentially.  It goes without saying that improper instruction not only leads to high ERA's, mechianical problems and "step backs", but also, unfortunately, to career-threatening injuries that do nothing to improve the former three.

 

As far as I am concerned, Barcelo, Rauch, Wright, Sirotka, Stumm, Kane, Malone, West, Biddle, Wells, Ginter, Honel. Fogg, Ulacia and even Garland and Burehle (now) were mishandled at some point. (That's more than a DOZEN of really talented and minor-league dominating pitchers in the span of only 2 years.) I am sure Cooper is not entirely innocent in the matter, either, but Nardi and people who hired him share a larger part of the blame in my book.  YMMV.

 

Let's hope I am wrong and Burhle/Galrand don't go down in 2003 and that Diaz, Honel, Wight, Rauch, Malone and Stumm bounce back big time either with our ML team or as major talent-bringing trade bait.

Eassssssy, Mr. Conspiracy Theory.

 

First off, the number of major league pitchers that will never spend time recuperating from an arm injury are very few. With the exception of some freaks of nature, Johnson, Clemens, Maddux, even most very good pitchers get hit with arm injuries. Kevin Brown, Jaret Wright, Joe Mays, Matt Anderson, Mariano Rivera, Andy Pettitte, Orlando Hernandez, Pedro Martinez, Pat Hentgen, Scott Erickson, Chris Carpenter, Wilson Alvarez, Alex Fernandez, Gil Meche, Ryan Anderson, Ken Cloude, Jarrod Washburn, Aaron Sele, Jeff Zimmerman, Jason Isringhausen, Billy Koch, Kevin Millwood, Kerry Wood, Jon Lieber, Kris Benson, Matt Mantei, Shane Reynolds, Billy Wagner, Wade Miller, Matt Morris, Pedro Astacio is just a very short list of pitchers ranging from good to great to "HOF ceiling" prospect, that have all suffered arm injuries. The fact of the matter is that the human arm is NOT constructed to throw repeatedly at high velocities, nor is it built to handle the stress of throwing repeated breaking balls. Using your logic, every pitching coach on every team, major and minor league, is responsible for ruining careers.

 

Now, I'm no fan of Nardi, but he can't be held responsible for screwing up minor league players he had nothing to do with developing. Easy it is to forget that he was a genius in 2000, getting a Central Division championship out of a rotation of Sirotka, Parque, Eldred, Baldwin, and whoever. Even if all 4 of those guys are 100% healthy right now, I don't think more than 3 major league teams would swap their rotations for them.

 

Finally, you seem to put a lot of stock in "independent scouting reports." Well, simply put, scouts are wrong--a lot. I would have no problem betting everything I own that for every 1 "can't miss" prospect that makes it, there are 3 that didn't come close. How many rounds are in the draft, 3000? How many players are in a team's minor league system? All those players are there because some scout somewhere thought they could make it to the MLB. What percentage actually pans out? I have no idea, but I'm sure it's very small.

 

Now, we have a good team to look forward to, and whining about Nardi or Terry Bevington or whoever isn't going to bring Donn Pall back again. The chips have fallen, and we still have a mighty fine squad. The real enemy is not coaches, ex-coaches, or scouts, it is the Minnesota Twins.

[SoxFan1]

Uuuum, I agree!? Actually, that was great analysis Ghost. Go Sox!

[BrandoFan]

Using your logic, every pitching coach on every team, major and minor league, is responsible for ruining careers.

 

No, over-using my logic and ignoring what I actually said on the matter would lead to that conclusion. (Kinda like me using that Little League exaggeration earlier...hehe)

 

all 4 of those guys are 100% healthy right now, I don't think more than 3 major league teams would swap their rotations for them.

 

Slightly OT, but it was CLEAR to quite a few at that time that out of the 4, only Sirotka was actually very talented; other 3 along with Navarro, Snyder, etc were overachieving mediocrities (see I am not a misguided homer! lol). Each of his three full ML season, he improved. Despite having an AWFUL (I mean really) defense behind him, Mike Sirotka was an All-Star pitcher with a ERA in 3.70s; even if his progress had stopped at that point (hindsight 20/20), that's still pretty f***ing close to an ace material. I mean, if he played for the Tribe and their D. at the time, his era would be a HALF point lower. No doubt about that. Tell me with a straight face you wouldnt want to have Mike as you THIRD starter if he remained healthy. (Not that Sirotka's case couldn't serve as a warning aganst over-using another lefty who shall remain nameless)

 

Finally, you seem to put a lot of stock in "independent scouting reports." Well, simply put, scouts are wrong--a lot.

 

I said "scouts + empirical evidence (mine and other Sox fans) + minor league stats". Reading is a skill. Not that I was debating the future of these players in the first place (hint: it's the injury/mechanical problems and Nardi and Co. that were the crux of the debate)...Still, I guess I should ignore Fogg's and Wells's success. I should ignore Barcelo (albeit injured one) and Rauch's great performances. I should ignore Biddle, Stumm, Honel, Malone, Wright's, Garland's stuff and accomplishments when healthy...yeah, those scouts are soooo stupid: when Barcelo spots a 97 mph fastball opn the outside corner to blow someone away, they should pretend he threw 87 mph batting practice pitch and gave up a homer instead...sure. Scouts are wrong often, but some things even they can't screw up

 

 

Now, we have a good team to look forward to, and whining about Nardi or Terry Bevington or whoever isn't going to bring Donn Pall back again. The chips have fallen, and we still have a mighty fine squad. The real enemy is not coaches, ex-coaches, or scouts, it is the Minnesota Twins

 

What does this have to do with anything, chief? Unless you can find where I said that "Sox should totally give up on this season because too much damage was done in the last few years by coaching ineptitude and ill-advised promotions", you might have as well saved your cyber breath...Also, I bet you were saying the same thing when Bevington, Nardi, etc were still with the team: i.e. "let's stop bashing them and instead concentrate on our opponents" which would have been intellectually lazy at the time. So what makes you think it's not now?

 

Eassssssy, Mr. Conspiracy Theory.

 

Substitute "conspiracy" with "Sox f***ing up" and you got it...more or less.

 

youve got to admit, if these guys worked hard enough they could be forces to be reckoned with. Its true

 

Oh, I think Mike Caruso was the only one that didn't work hard. Everybody else was fine from the effort standpoint.

[Wong & Owens]

I said "scouts + empirical evidence (mine and other Sox fans) + minor league stats".  Reading is a skill.  Not that I was debating the future of these players in the first place (hint: it's the injury/mechanical problems and Nardi and Co. that were the crux of the debate)...Still, I guess I should ignore Fogg's and Wells's success.  I should ignore Barcelo (albeit injured one) and  Rauch's great performances.  I should ignore Biddle, Stumm, Honel, Malone, Wright's, Garland's stuff and accomplishments when healthy...yeah, those scouts are soooo stupid:  when Barcelo spots a 97 mph fastball opn the outside corner to blow someone away,  they should pretend he threw 87 mph batting practice pitch and gave up a homer instead...sure.  Scouts are wrong often, but some things even they can't screw up

Not debating their futures? You had basically all but started the HOF plaque engraving on about 6 pitchers that haven't thrown more than 50 major league innings!?!?!?!?

 

How is Nardi Contreras responsible for minor league pitchers' injuries? The only(I think the only, if I missed someone or two, I apologize) pitchers you mentioned that pitched under Nardi's watch long enough to make a case for are Sirotka, and maybe Parque.

 

Fogg and Wells' success? Fogg was 12-12 with a 4.35 ERA, and Wells was 12-14 with a 3.58 ERA. I would hardly call Fogg's season a success to the point that you can say the Sox staff mishandled him, and OK, Wells had a fine season, let's see if he can do it more than once before we say that Sox Coaches screwed him up.

 

As for all those others you mentioned, their accomplishments have been in the minor leagues, which was my point in the first place--minor league success NEVER guarantees any level of success in the big leagues, regardless of their "stuff" or what any scouts say about them. None of these pitchers have anywhere near a large enough body of work by which one can determine if they have been poorly coached, managed, developed, whatever.

[BrandoFan]

Not debating their futures? You had basically all but started the HOF plaque engraving on about 6 pitchers

 

Flatout lie. Forgive me if I don't read the rest of your post as you clearly did not read mine.

[Wong & Owens]

Sox already f***ed up one HOF-caliber pitching talent in Barcelo.  Now it's Rauch's turn?  Unbelievable.  I heard he is injured again/will never recover from labrum tear.  Couple that with them screwing up both Corwin Malone and Jason Stumm; I am seriously starting to worry about Honel's progress.  I mean these are the guys are suposed to make ther Sox the Insians of the 2000s...damn.  Thanks Nardi- you left a true legacy.

 

 

Oh, and Danny Wright is going down too?!  I hear Buerhle's experiencing velocity and movement drop off, since last last year in fact.  I guess Garland is set to re-injure himself sometime during the pennant race.  Sweeeeeeeet!

Barcelo and Rauch, HOF-caliber prospects.

 

You blamed Nardi.

[Chisoxfn]

You can't blame Nardi for what happened with minor leaguers who never were at the big show, cause thats pretty much the only time Nardi would of touched him.

 

You also can't look only at numbers, there are a lot of other things that point out. If it was up to numbers, then how come Liefer sucked. How come Harris hasn't turned into a stud already. Look at the hitters, plenty hit incredibly well, but never amount to a hill of beans at the major league level.

 

There are so many things than just stats. Stats are key for those guys that don't have all the hype as its a great way to get recognized and hopefully be given a shot, while others kind of get the shot handed to them.

[Wong & Owens]

Lou said that? No s***!  That cheap f***er Jerry cutting back on pitching coach' salary possibly led us to losing Sirotka (ace material)...Barcelo (HOF material)...Stumm (too early to tell, but people say back in 99 he was dominant in his first year in the minors)...Kip Wells (no injury, just f***ed up mechanics and mental health)...Rauch (HOF material)...Malone (dominant power lefty with 1:5 bb/k ratio before getting "help"? See Kip Wells Syndrom GarLand already had a surgery and only his fluid delivery has saved him from Nardi's methods, though we'll see if he can make it through one full season before concluding anything...UNREAL.  Thank god Honel is only in A-ball. It could he salvation.

 

I won't even mention JB (All-Star before injury) and Biddle (every here knows about his nasty stuff), Ginter (Kip Wells Syndrom), Ulacia and Brian West (era in 2.00s before "mechanical problems"..list goes on.

Barcelo & Rauch = HOF'ers?

 

Sirotka = Ace?

 

Stumm and Malone = dominant

 

JB = All-Star? You really think he ever duplicates that one half of a season? Injury or no injury? You're joking, right?

 

Biddle = nasty stuff? In the MINORS, maybe

 

Ginter, Ulacia, West = great minor league numbers = proves nothing = never touched by Nardi Contreras