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South Side Hit Men

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Posts posted by South Side Hit Men

  1. 3 hours ago, Squirmin' for Yermin said:

    What a miserable offseason this would be.


    2 hours ago, chw42 said:

    I just barfed a little.

    You all cray cray. Landing Carlos and filling 2B and a corner OF (though I'd prefer a Pederson who can play RF to Rosario) will put their payroll over $200M. If they are able to move Kimbrel, they would likely get a Kiermaier / Segura contract making the payroll savings a near wash.

    The top teams (Dodgers, Yankees, Boston, perhaps the Cubs) were sidelined until they knew what they were facing with a revised (or cancelled) "Luxury Tax". Expect these teams to spend aggressively if they know they aren't losing draft picks or heavy fines with the new CBA.

    Do you expect the Sox to increase their payroll by $100M from last year into the $220M-$240M range to land 2-3 guys of the highest projected AAVs left on the board beyond Rodon (Correa, Story, Kershaw, Castellanos, Bryant, Schawaber)?

    Solid article by Jayson Stark linked in the tweet.


    Because from 1964-73, Dick Allen had an OPS+ of 165. So he’s on the list. Here’s everyone who made that list from the expansion era (1961-2021):

    Hall of Famers: Henry Aaron, Frank Robinson, Willie McCovey, Jeff Bagwell, Frank Thomas

    Still active: Miguel Cabrera, Albert Pujols, Mike Trout

    PED asterisks: Barry Bonds, Mark McGwire, Manny Ramírez

    Everyone else: Dick Allen



  3. 1 hour ago, bmags said:

    Sorry I'm dumb and got distracted by labor talks but we are doing $30M from the team salary where it stands right now (includes kimbrel, graveman, leury?)

    Yes, this is the perimeters established in this thread, consistent with last years thread.

    Roster as is at the start of tehe lockout (Kimbrel, Graveman, Leury on the team), add Free Agent(s) remaining with $30M.

  4. 26 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:




    Appreciated Tony Oliva and Jim Kaat as players.

    In addition to Dick Allen, John Donaldson was also worthy of induction with this HOF inductee class. John McGraw who managed for decades called John the greatest he'd ever seen. John Donaldson lived his post baseball career here, passed in Cook County Hospital, and is buried in Alsip (Burr Oak).

  5. 2 hours ago, pcq said:

    Jim is known from the Twins yet few Sox pitchers have won 20 games twice that I can recall. Wilber Wood and who else? Ed Walsh I assume.  

    There are thirteen White Sox pitchers who have won 20 or more games in a season two to four times in a White Sox uniform.

    • (4) Ed Walsh [40 (1908); 27 (1911, 1912); 24 (1907)]
    • (4) Red Faber [25 (1921); 24 (1915); 23 (1920); 21 (1922)]
    • (4) Wilbur Wood [24 (1972, 1973); 22 (1971); 20 (1974)]
    • (3) Eddie Cicotte [29 (1919); 28 (1917); 21 (1920)]
    • (3) Ted Lyons [22 (1927, 1930); 21 (1925)]
    • (3) Frank Owen [22 (1906); 21 (1904, 1905)]
    • (2) Frank Smith [25 (1909); 23 (1907)]
    • (2) Jim Scott [24 (1915); 20 (1913)]
    • (2) Nick Altrock [23 (1905); 20 (1906)]
    • (2) Lefty Williams [23 (1919); 22 (1920)]
    • (2) Jack McDowell [22 (1993); 20 (1992)]
    • (2) Jim Kaat [21 (1974); 20 (1975)]
    • (2) Billy Pierce [20 (1956, 1957)]

  6. 2 hours ago, Dick Allen said:

    Dick Allen had the same OPS+ as Frank Yhomas. Frank was deservedly a first ballot guy. Dick Allen hasn't played in over 40 years and is dead. It's a joke he isn't in. 

    I hate how death seems to increase chances. Ron Santo drove me nuts but if you're going to vote for them when they are dead, vote for them when they are alive. Let them have that moment. I hope  Dick and Minnie get in today although it should have been years ago. I also hope another ex-White Sox, Jim Kaat gets in today. He's going in someday, do it while he is here.

    Jerry and likely others are on record as being opposed to Dick Allen’s induction, in part for his pro union/player advocacy positions more so than any lack of on field merit.


    My preference for HOF standards would be “inner ring” inductees (most of the BBWAA inductees, a few of the earlier veterans committee picks, the first Negro League class and a few more) with about 130, say 85 hitters and 45 pitchers.

    Today, there are more than twice that count (263). Based on the current actual standards, I agree with you there is a solid case for several of the nominees today and on the January BBWAA Ballot.

  7. 1 hour ago, greg775 said:

    With my ever-declining interest in baseball (except for my interest in the Sox; I used to follow all teams a bit, but no more), I have a question to ask. Usually when work stoppages were threatened I had a strong feel for what would happen. So what will happen with this one?

    Are they close? Is there one issue that we'll have to wait until June to get resolved so no baseball til June or something? What's the hottest issue that's holding things up. I guess I'm wrong but I would think the owners would not want a stoppage during the Covid era. Seasons can be canceled at any time for Covid reasons for gosh sakes. These owners need to play ball as much as they can so the cash registers can ring from parking, concessions, TV contracts. Thanx in advance.

    The primary issue for this negotiation is compensation, arbitration and free agency eligibility for players in their 0-6 years of MLB service.

    • Changes to the minimum salary.
    • Arbitration eligibility (2 vs. 3 years).
    • Free agency eligibility (5 vs. 6 years or a set age (owners proposal).
    • Elimination of compensatory draft picks for departing Free Agents.
    • Reforming the amateur domestic draft & foreign free agent process.
    • Changes to or elimination of “Luxury Taxes” (fines, draft picks).

    Players gained significant advantages the first few decades of the MLBPA, but owners have made significant strides the past twenty-five years (1996 forward).

    While younger fans are unable to recall the acrimony of the 1970s or 1980s, deals still were reached, it just took time and in some cases cost regular season games.

    The players are looking to regain some of their lost rights this round, and are prepared for an extended fight, with significant reserves to withstand an extended lockout. Time well tell whether they will remain unified longer than owners.

  8. MLB created this special election today, and timed it to have SOMETHING positive to hawk on their website and cable channel at the start of the owner lockout.

    Announcement for any additions will occur at 5PM today.

    No word on whether any inductees will have their name and likeness appear, or whether they will be inducted with MLB's preferred mandated faceless plaque.



    Really hope Dick Allen and Minnie Minoso are inducted tonight.


    Good signings @Chicago White Sox.

    I agree with your assessment @TheFutureIsNear, I also suggested to broaden the trade net to try to open up flexibility across the high priced FA/extensions of the past two offseasons, and also agree the Schwarber would be one of the best high impact bats, he was the top consideration for me in terms of impact bats, but I only passed due to the overload of DH/LF options on the current roster.

    @Y2Jimmy0 - While I do agree it likely the Sox will at minimum attempt to flip Kimbrel and your moves make sense in that context. For the purposes of this thread, I tried to keep the parameters the same as last year (strictly an assessment of $30M for free agency).


    My initial plan focused on three aspects. 1. Clearing some of the higher priced veterans for young talent which can win now. 2. Improving the team defensively. 3. Adding free agents to bring a TOR starter and improve defensively behind the plate (Contreras and Gomes, ironically the current two Cubs catchers).

    Robbie Ray, Yan Gomes and Leury Garcia were my three Free Agent targets in late October. The three came in at slightly over the $30M range we are using for this excercise. Leury returned as expected, Ray and Gomes signed solid deals which I wish the Sox were able to offer and secure. Matz was not an initial target, but his deal was also team friendly and something I wish the Sox were able to match / exceed and sign, almost as much as Cohen. 

    My four current acquisition targets at this stage are:

    1. Carlos Rodon (Age 29 $19.0M AAV - $76M/3+1 KH terms) - Assuming his medicals check out, he is the top starting pitcher. Perhaps have a creative terms like the Hendriks deal, giving Carlos a higher guarantee with a flexible final year. Now that he is working off of a solid innnings base, a return to his form of last year will make him a formidable playoff starter able to help navigate the team through the postseason.
    2. Josh Harrison (Age 35 $5.0M 1 year + team option) - I preferred Lux or another solid trade acquisition, and while I wouldn't have renewed Kimbrel, I would prefer a trade for Segura at this stage, but for the purpose of this exercise, Harrison provides the best opportunity to provide a solid presence at 2B. Villar and Iglesias both have 2B listed in the Fangraphs Free Agent list, but their primary experience is other positions, and the Sox would be best served by a regular 2B, not converting one on the fly and hoping it works out. J Hey is an adequate fielder with a decent bat, providing a 1.5 fWAR last season / 1/2 projected for 2022. He will allow Leury to do what he does best, provide the team flexibility across many positions.
    3. Stephen Vogt (Age 37 $3.5M 1 year) - Of the remaining catchers, he is the best defensive option and will provide a solid veteran presence to help work with pitchers. He can work with Lucas and Carlos (Grandal can DH or play 1B those days) while Grandal can work with Lynn, Cease and Keuchel.
    4. Jake Diekman (Age 35 $2.5M 1 year) - While I considered a 5th OF with the remaining funds (Schwarber and Pederson far out of reach with the available budget), I believe adding one more reliever, in part to allow flexibility with Kimbrel, is the best use of the remaining budget. Signing him more for his October possibilities than to get the Sox through the regular season, as the can muddle through with Ruiz/Burr for the final spot. Has playoff experience and is another solid piece to the bullpen at a reasonable cost.

    Fan Graphs White Sox Roster 

    2022 Free Agent Tracker

    2022 Offseason Take Two Final Roster: (Steamer Projected  2021 Games (or Innings for pitchers) / fWAR)

    • Infield: C Grandal (127 / 4.5); 1B Abreu (150 / 2.1); 2B Harrison (118 / 1.2); SS Anderson (150 / 3.3); 3B Moncada (149 / 3.8).
    • Outfield/DH: Robert (149 / 4.8) Jimenez (146 (HA!) / 2.5; Vaughn (115 / 1.5) & Sheets (110 / 1.0).
    • Reserves: INF Garcia (112 / 1.1); OF Engel (87 / 0.5); C Vogt (45 / 0.2); INF/OF Mendick (39 / 0.3).
    • Starters: Giolito (184 / 3.3); Rodon (154 / 3.8); Lynn (187 / 3.4); Kopech (145 / 2.7); Cease (170 / 3.0) Keuchel (161 / 1.2).
    • Relievers: Hendriks (68 / 1.5); Bummer (64 / 0.9); Crochet (74 / 0.9); Kimbrel (66 / 0.7); Diekman (69 / 0.6); Graveman (62 / 0.4); Lopez (57 / 0.3).
    • Minor League Standby: Lambert, Adolfo, Ruiz.


    • Like 1

  10. 5 hours ago, ron883 said:

    This is absolutely pathetic. "Dox yourself or I won't respond". 

    Users here respond under one ID, do not have multiple user names. Personally  do not care and have no interest in a writer's real name or personal information. Some you can ascertain or guess at such as Y2Jimmy, but I have no interest in "doxing" his or any writer's personal information, but nice try.

    In term's of TexSox, you made it quite clear you prefer scab players over the actual players many here still care about. 

    Texsox - Prefers faceless avatars wearing Jerry's laundry 

    6upLSqJd_400x400.jpg + ff_2342882alt1_full.jpg&w=600

    whereas SSHM Prefers Actual White Sox - playing with or without logos, and definitely without racist logos or imagery.


    Laughable you would post a Marx image, oblivious to the fact the owners have socialized their capital expenses on the backs of American taxpayers, and distorted the tax code to have the average "working class" fan pay a much higher tax rate then the billionaires profiting off of the morally corrupt system.

    Billionaire Owners get billions in stadium subsidies paid for by the working class who can't afford to even enter their taxpayer funded stadiums, unless they are there to sweep the floors.


    There is no money for sports facilities or arts in Public Schools.  The working class get this.


  11. 19 hours ago, Balta1701 said:



    Odd to include Bonds but not Clemens.

    I can see a reasonable argument to include or exclude both. Jon stated the reason he limited his ballot to players not connected to steroids, with the exception of Bonds, is the fact that Bonds pre "steroid" career offers a compelling case.

    He then went on to state that players like Bobby Abreu, Ryan Howard, Torii Hunter and others have cases as well. Don't really agree with that assessment unless you are going for a 500 player + BBHOF (100 players per generation vs. the 20-30 per generation typically inducted by the BBWAA.


  12. Carrying forward a thread from the 2021 offseason, this is an offshoot of the ongoing 2022 Offseason Plan Thread.

    While trades will occur once a CBA is finalized, and the Sox very may well at least attempt to trade Craig Kimbrel and or others, for the purpose of this thread, we will proceed with the assumption of the current roster, free agent spending only, and no trades to free up roster spots or additional funds for traded salary.

    What you would do if you had $30M to spend once the CBA is Finalized?

    The one suggestion to allow comparability across posters / proposed rosters is to try to use a crowded sourced or independent valuation for the contracts you propose. I have linked three free public sources below, but you can use others as well.

    1. Fangraphs Free Agent Tracker: https://www.fangraphs.com/roster-resource/free-agent-tracker 
    2. MLB Trade Rumors: https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2021/11/top-50-mlb-free-agent-rankings.html
    3. Sportrac: https://www.spotrac.com/mlb/free-agents/

  13. 2 hours ago, raBBit said:

    Just explain how owners have negative tax rates. No changing the subject or name calling. Just substantiate the stuff that you’re pretty clearly making up. Use a source for released tax records. Use a source for how you would calculate a negative tax rate for a billionaire. Do anything else and it’s clear you’re making stuff up. 

    Since it is quite clear you are desperate for an exchange, disclose your author name for Future Sox, to allow posters here to determine whether your articles are worth reading, and I will provide a response to this post.

    Still waiting for your first post in this exchange, perhaps any exchange you've had on SoxTalk, that does not involve "name calling".

  14. 18 minutes ago, ron883 said:

    NOBODY here is more disgusted by this work stoppage than you are. In fact, nobody else here is disgusted enough. That in itself is absolutely disgusting. I've reported each and every person here who has perpetrated any falsehoods regarding the lockout. 

    Yes, for me to post Yankees pictures and footage, it is not a good time to be a baseball fan. :D

    Wait til next, next year!

    11 minutes ago, whitesoxwinner said:

    Great information that i appreciate hit men. So in worst case scenario (which is a complete possibility at this point), waiting to make the moves that fill the needs of the ballclub is a mistake, because we will have no time to make those moves (if it gets to this point of course). The worst thing that could happen to us is ending the lockout in like june and starting the regular season a few weeks from there. Would give us no time to fill our holes

    Yes, it is in the teams and players best interest to conclude the offseason as orderly as possible. It should go something like the last two weeks, a flurry of deals, but this time with trades as well.

    I am hopeful this can get wrapped up before the end of February, and the regular season can begin before the end of April. I don't expect much progress for another several weeks, but at some point, either serious negotiations will occur or the players will go to the NLRB to defend their labor rights.

    From what I read, Owners have to fulfill a six week Spring Training to abide by their agreements covering most of their AZ/FLA ST stadium leases, so it will likely be a longer ST than the impromptu truncated STs conducted in April 1995 or July 2020.

  15. 14 minutes ago, whitesoxwinner said:

    what happens if the lockout lasts until june? Im assuming they would give teams enough time to make moves to the start of "pre season" (usually known as spring training). This ix completely unprecedented to me

    Owners locked out players until July 23 last year. The Owners primarily care about the playoffs, everyone with a cable bill still pays carriage fees to the Owners for their RSNs and MLB Channel showing whatever whether there are games or not, and they'll also get reduced advertising for their replacement fishing, poker, talking heads shows, reruns of prior games, etc.. Not paying players covers any losses from the national TV contracts.

    COVID allowed owners to short play their 2020 Spring Training leases, but they would likely have to have financial compensation/concessions to Arizona/Florida governments to avoid attempting ST in ridiculous Summer desert/swamp conditions.

    At some point, a court may order Owners to begin negotiating, as is what happened in March 1995, when Judge Sonya Sotomayor saved baseball and ordered MLB Owners to send their scab players home and play baseball with actual Major League Players. Games started later in April 1995 to allow a haphazard partial spring training, played under the previous CBA terms. The final deal wasn't signed until after the 1996 season, two seasons after Sonya Sotomayor's ruling.

    Owners could continue negotiating with the MLB Players Association just as they had over the course of two seasons (1995-1996) until a new deal is reached. However, MLB Owners have ZERO intentions to begin negotiating in good faith unless ordered by a Federal judge or reaching a stage where the players give them nearly everything they demand.


    By then Supreme Court Justice Sonya Sotomayor, who saved MLB as a district judge in 1995 by striking down Owner Bud Selig's scab player scheme, is escorted by Jorge Posada to throw out the first pitch at Yankees Stadium September 26, 2009,


    Yankees fans hold racist tomahawks gavels to honor Supreme Court Justice Sonya Sotomayor, September 26, 2009.



    • Like 1

  16. Where are we at with all of this @Chicago White Sox ?

    So far my FA "bracket" has been busted, as two of the three free agents I wanted the Sox to acquire, Robbie Ray and Yan Gomes, are off the board, both with reasonable deals, and the Sox signed the third (Leury Garcia).

    Perhaps we can have a new thread with what would one do post lockout with $30M budget like we did last year.

    My FA picks for $30M did well overall last offseason with two on point picks (Schwarber (3.1 fWAR), Zunino (4.5 fWAR)), Pederson who did well in the Postseason (0.6 fWAR + 3 HRs & a WS) and one mediocre pick in Colome (0.1 fWAR).

    • Like 1

  17. 16 minutes ago, raBBit said:

    There’s a reason you didn’t respond to any of my specific points. You’re full of it and need to get personal to distract from the lack of actual knowledge or understanding about the subject. 

    We get it, you hate the rich and that you’re a great person. Blah blah blah. You add nothing to the conversation speaking so arrogantly about a subject you don’t understand. You don’t need to turn everything about business and wealth into one of your platitudes. 

    Talk about the pot calling the kettle black, your hissy fit speaks loudly, Apparently your reading comprehension is as lacking as your knowledge of economics. 

    Have a good day.

  18. 31 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

    AH, I must have missed that you guys were communicating via PM's and I somehow got access and that this conversation wasn't posted on a public message board. My bad.

    I'm glad to see you couldn't refute my points though.

    Yes, there are some posts so ridiculous they are beyond the need to respond.

    Anyone here can look up the tax rates for Capital Gains (Unrealized taxed at 0%) or Long Term Capital Gains vs. Federal, State and Local Wage rates.

    Most also can understand the difference between home owners of a non income producing asset which they pay property taxes on each and every six months vs. a business which not only has their capital expenses paid for by the rabble, but also the fact the billionaire's business pays no property taxes on said capital.

    You can't have a rational discussion with someone lacking in the basic economic realities of taxation rates, rates on capital vs. labor, fairness, etc..

    Mega dittos, silly Rabbit.

    • Haha 1

  19. Too Legit to Quit.

    Now that he faced the tough grind of his first MLB season, took two months to get acclimated before turning in an elite performance as a 23 year old, before succumbing to the grind and some late season injuries. Outside of Robert and perhaps Kopech, Vaughn is the guy I want the Sox to keep the most among their core.


    • Like 5

  20. One side has been serious trying to negotiate a new CBA. Worth clicking to read his five tweets.

    The 30% revenue gain, 2-5% player salary gain is what Jerry referred to during the playoffs as "a very fair offer", while simultaneously claiming the players "don't want to get serious until the end."

    Also, the owners are refusing to discuss any changes to the game with the union, beyond their desire to cheapen the sport and expand playoffs.

    Jayson Stark's article lays out the issue at hand, and Eugene lays out the legalistic points in his series of tweets.