Soxbadger

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Sep 11, 2012 -> 05:17 PM) There is no "more". The school system is fixed to a certain percentage of property taxes collected, by law. Its not like a corporation where they can raise or lower prices, or decide to spend more of their profits on wages etc. Their school system is already in a ridiculous amount of debt and deficit because everyone ignores this. In this situation, more raises literally means less classroom resources. It is a zero sum game. I understand that, it seems the union doesnt.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Sep 11, 2012 -> 05:02 PM) I've posted several summaries in this thread. Striking workers don't take their jobs seriously? That's in interesting perspective. Many of the issues they're striking over directly benefit the innocent children. Maybe they're not a bunch of heartless bastards after all? Maybe they do care about the children and are fighting for better working conditions. Framing either side as "not caring about the children" is just lazy rhetoric. No you really havent. Everything has been about money. Their issues dont benefit children. What would benefit children is the union allowing CPS to hire teachers at a fraction of the cost so that kids could be in classrooms of 10 or less. As for why they wont leave CPS, I thought you knew. They get paid better than most teachers anywhere else in the US.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Sep 11, 2012 -> 05:01 PM) And if they really want more resources in the classroom that badly, do they not have an accounting teacher in the school system who can tell them that this is a zero sum game? A dollar that goes for a raise, is a dollar less than can go for something like classroom aids or materials. The school systems funding is fixed. No they just want more. More money, more teachers, more resources. Im pretty sure that every person in Chicago wants there to be more teachers and more resources. The problem is the best way to achieve that is to get rid of teachers who are making 3x more than what brand new teacher would make. Since the union wont allow CPS to hire brand new teachers at ridiculously low rates, you cant get more teachers. So thus the teachers who want their larger paychecks, need to do more work. Its as if these teachers have never seen a budget.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Sep 11, 2012 -> 04:54 PM) It's their first strike in a 1/4 century and it was held with a 90% vote by CTU members after months of fruitless negotiations. For some reason, people keep thinking this is a strike about raises. It's about many different issues and the COL adjustments are one of the ones with little or no contention at this point. Sure, and these teachers electing to strike don't. Why dont you tell me what this strike is about because I have it so wrong. The ones who didnt show up clearly dont take it seriously. Some of these kids are going to be adversely impacted, its just not fair to them. And as a person, I put the needs of innocent children over the needs of adults who are getting paid considerable money to show up and help these kids. If being a teacher in CPS is so bad, why dont they go to another school district?

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Sep 11, 2012 -> 04:46 PM) No workers should ever strike? Nope When Carnegie wanted to cut workers wages 50% even though he was making record profits, that makes sense. When factory workers struck because they had to work 20 hours, or work in unsafe conditions, or child labor, or anything that is truly terrible, that makes sense. When you have a job, that is part of the public trust, you should only strike as a last resort and it better be over something that is very serious. Raises in a terrible economy, not exactly something that is so serious that I think you should potentially screw up a kids life. But then again, I take my responsibilities seriously.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Sep 11, 2012 -> 04:45 PM) In the top quintile of all wage earners in the US, on just the salary average. Not good enough, I want to make more than everyone ever, because that is what being a teacher is about. File Under: Mo Money Mo Problems.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Sep 11, 2012 -> 04:38 PM) What "responsibility to the system" does a public employee have that precludes them from demanding better wages and working conditions? Where did I say they couldnt demand those things? I said I would show up to my job. Because I take my job seriously. Because I show up even when I dont have to, because even when I had swine flu I went to my court appearance because that is my job. And if I am a teacher and I signed up to make kids lives better, then you better damn believe after I had a summer off, I would be there the first week to make sure that none of these kids got screwed because of money. And then after I took care of my students, I would go out and talk with parents and have protests on weekends, and show the world why I was deserving of more money. That is how you win public support. You dont think people are sympathetic to those who get screwed? Or those who get a bad deal? Of course they are. People arent sympathetic to those who take their ball and go home, effectively ending the game because they dont like a call. When you are an adult, when you are responsible, when you are allegedly worth so much and care so much about the damn students, you play on. Even if you got screwed.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Sep 11, 2012 -> 04:36 PM) So what? His specific statement was that the teachers union shouldn't be doing this during an election year (regardless of when their contract expires). What does that have to do with anything? What does a national election have to do with Rahm Emanuel and Chicago? I give up. Unions are going to bury themselves. Right now is the time you keep quiet and thank your lucky stars for how good you have it. I know a lot of union people, most of them know that they are very very lucky and fortunate. But it only takes 1 group to spoil it for everyone.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Sep 11, 2012 -> 04:27 PM) When did public sector employees start taking vows of poverty? http://aspe.hhs.gov/poverty/12poverty.shtml Which CPS teacher is making less than the poverty line? Because if these teachers were making under the poverty line, you may have a point. But since they arent...

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Sep 11, 2012 -> 04:21 PM) How many people posting in this thread would simply accept longer hours, reduced job protection and no increase in pay if you had the option to fight against it? What is my job? Am I prosecutor/public defender who has a responsibility to the system? Or am I private employee who has a private employer? Because if its A, I have a responsibility to people and while I would not like what was done, I would still show up and act like an adult and do my job. If its B, sure everyone is selfish. But, you are forgetting the point. Just because they can fight it, doesnt mean that it is the smartest thing to do. If I believe fighting for a raise will ultimately cost me more, I would not fight it. There are ways to win battles and there are ways to win wars. I am in the business of winning wars.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Sep 11, 2012 -> 03:21 PM) Which election? Chicago Mayoral election (2010-2011)? Illinois Governor election? (2010)? And at what point in the near future do you expect the Republicans to stop trying to kill all unions? National elections. How much traction do Republicans currently have in Chicago? This strike is actually making people re-think their position supporting unions. Imo this is going down the road of unmitigated disaster for the union.

Ducks fly together! Oh whoops.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Sep 11, 2012 -> 02:10 PM) Seriously, when's a good time to do this? They probably had cause to do a walkout a year ago or whenever it was that the city broke the last contract and didn't give them the raise that was in the contract. The economy's been depressed for basically 5 years now, and I'll bet they got more generous salary increases when there was the last negotiation during the housing boom. When would that statement be inapplicable? A better time would be not in an election year when other people want to completely destroy unions. On one hand you have a side saying, its just not a good time, lets figure things out. On the other hand you have a side saying, lets kill unions. Is now really a good time to push the side that is slightly in your favor?

QUOTE (flippedoutpunk @ Sep 11, 2012 -> 01:57 PM) So Romney and Walker are with Rahm, and Obama is with Rahm against the union. The Mayans were right.... haha Its actually the CTU is terribly run and basically picked the worst year to have a political showdown. Govt spending is on everyone's mind, and this gives all parties a nice platform to speak about. Conservatives get to talk about how they should end unions, liberals get to talk about how they still care about unions, they just need be tougher on govt spending, especially when its for perks that are perceived to be unnecessary. My office is primarily democrat/liberal and the teachers union, especially Lewis, is getting no love.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Sep 11, 2012 -> 12:13 PM) Again, welcome to life on earth. You know how many jobs I applied for in 2007-08 and was told I was overqualified because I held a law degree? THIS IS THE REAL WORLD, NOT JUST THE TEACHING PROFESSION. They wouldnt hire you, even if youd take minimum wage? I cant imagine that.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Sep 11, 2012 -> 12:11 PM) My wife specifically did not choose a master's program when she went back to get her teaching certificate. Allowing people to accept lower pay undercuts the wages that unions have negotiated for. It's guild-like protectionism and hurts some while it helps others. No it hurts everyone, because unlike a private sector job, schools are for the benefit of society. So when you have highly educated teachers who want the same job for less money, society is hurt when the union says no. Society is hurt when the school district is bankrupt and the union wont let it hire cheaper replacements. Once again, everyone wants a teacher job. But the union creates a system where only the select few ever get it and then creates rules to ensure that those select few never lose it. And maybe Id be a little more convinced in the system if we were going gangbusters and dominating in education. But we arent, so outside of teachers bank accounts, who is winning? Because this is who is not: children, tax payers, society.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Sep 11, 2012 -> 12:09 PM) here, specifically: http://dx.doi.org/10.1787/888932310529 Tab "T_D4.1" shows that primary education averages 1913 hours, lower secondary averages 1977 and upper secondary averages 1998 per year. Sorry for being unclear, I meant the stat about regular workers doing less than 2k hours. The stats I linked from the US govt showed every industry averaged over 40 hours per week. This is what I was referring to, According to data from the comparable year in a Labor Department survey, an average full-time employee works 1,932 hours a year spread out over 48 weeks (excluding two weeks vacation and federal holidays).

QUOTE (Jake @ Sep 11, 2012 -> 12:02 PM) Well, you can do what some states are doing -- require a master's degree. This rules out a lot of folks. Whether that is a good thing or not is up to you to decide. I'm studying to teach in college and I can say the 6 years post-grad helps to narrow the field significantly. You may not be aware, but getting a masters degree screws you trying to get a CPS job. One of my good friends is very talented, she went to Smith for undergrad and got 2 masters at Depaul (education and history) before she even tried to get a teaching job. Her dream was to be a High School teacher. She student taught at CPS and the school loved her. But they couldnt hire her. Why? According to the contract they had to pay her X due to all of her degrees. She just wanted a job, she told them she would be willing to take the lowest starting salary. They said that it was not allowed because of the union. She is now teaching at a private school in the suburbs, making less money than a brand new CPS teacher with no extra degrees. It makes no sense.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Sep 11, 2012 -> 11:54 AM) Can we get a comparison of CPS salary averages to college-educated salary averages? That's more apples-to-apples. Here is a good one: http://money.cnn.com/2012/01/12/pf/college...aries/index.htm Average starting salary for all graduates $41k Average starting salary for teachers $37k As I said, teacher fairs are crammed to capacity. Equal pay, superior benefits and job guarantee. You just cant beat it.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Sep 11, 2012 -> 11:51 AM) Teachers want more for working more hours and COL to cover rising living costs. Anyway, doesn't everyone want more for less? Isn't that the way market forces are supposed to work, maximum benefit for minimum cost? Market forces are supposed to allow the market to correct. So when you have worker A who wants $100,000 and worker B who wants $10,000, the market would say I should be able to hire worker B, especially if worker A is not 10x more productive. Yet the union does not allow this. So if we really want to go down the road of market forces, shouldnt we destroy the union because they artificially control the market? (I dont want to destroy unions, id just be careful arguing market forces when supporting unions.) (Edit) Unions are basically legal collusion or a cartel. Market forces do not really want that.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Sep 11, 2012 -> 11:49 AM) I didn't post that article to show how much harder teachers have it. I posted it to deflate the argument that teachers should be paid less because they don't work as much, because it turns out that, yeah, they do. Im still not sure you are actually responding to the arguments. CPS teachers are being paid MORE than the regular people who pay for their salary. The question is why should teachers, who have more benefits than a regular common joe, get MORE money, when the economy is not doing well and the city is screwed for money. That is the question, and I have yet to see a real answer.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Sep 11, 2012 -> 11:38 AM) Teachers average about 19 hours a year less than your typical full-time employee. Average employees don't work 2080 hours a year because they get holidays and vacations. The quote I pulled even went over that! Do you have the source? WSJ didnt link it, and I cant seem to find a comparable study. I keep finding work hours etc, but no luck. http://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat23.htm That link shows that every full time industry averages over 40 hours a week when you include outside of the office.

QUOTE (Jake @ Sep 11, 2012 -> 11:35 AM) What I don't understand is why you guys don't all become teachers... awesome pay, awesome benefits and pension, EASY work schedule, EASY nature of work why don't you do it??? No available jobs. Go to a teacher fair, literally thousands of people in line hoping for one of these jobs.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Sep 11, 2012 -> 10:50 AM) Rahm is anti-union and Obama's done nothing for labor. Tight budgets didn't stop administration from giving themselves raises. Yep nothing for labor! Do you actually believe that? Because the cultural climate right now is semi-antagonistic to Unions. What do you want Obama to do? Pass laws? Change the law? Or should he focus on getting re-elected so that another person isnt elected who would do much worse to unions? Administration didnt give themselves a raise, the Board of Education voted and agreed to it. Correct me if I am wrong, but no one on the board voted on their own raise. I dont agree that anyone should be getting raises, but Im not on the board. http://www.cps.edu/About_CPS/The_Board_of_.../Boardbios.aspx Those are the members of the board, I have no idea what they are doing.

That show still exists? I think I stopped watching 7 years ago.