Y2HH

I'm done with this conversation. You're all right. There is little to no corruption in Chicago politics. We are hemorrhaging almost no real money on said corruption, too. You're all right, and I'm very wrong, because all I have is "anecdotal" evidence, the overused word play on Soxtalk. I'll say it again, you're right...there's almost no corruption in Chicago politics. I take back everything I said and admit how wrong I am for thinking the words Corruption and Chicago fit together. Honestly, you're all making me laugh...but in a sad way, because you actually believe it.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Oct 25, 2011 -> 01:47 PM) I learned a new word yesterday, and think it's appropriate here: anecdata. Dumb, and it shows you're as clueless as most here.

QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Oct 25, 2011 -> 01:39 PM) I agree. Something else to consider, though... part of the problem that the city and county (and state) have is that certain legal protections for union contracts are impenetrable, they cannot be changed. The city has already been slapped down on this on multuple fronts in the courts. So some of this has to be done legislatively, and others of it has to be done in future times. That limits what they can do. Preckwinkle is trying to play that poker game with her unions - take the unpaid days or I'll just lay off however many I am allowed to. You agree on nothing because this shows you have little clue as to what's going on around you. The amount of money being ripped off Chicago is EASILY in the hundreds of millions. Easily. Because TONS of people are doing it. 100 bucks here, 500 bucks there, maybe a couple thousand over there...and these are REGULAR City workers. As for an easy fix to correct it?! MY. ASS. It would mean bringing down at least HALF the workers, across the board...none of which will turn themselves in or take the fall for it. Good luck uncovering DECADES of built in corruption that appears so normal that it's actually "book clean", despite being totally illegal.

QUOTE (bmags @ Oct 25, 2011 -> 01:34 PM) Again, how prevalent do you actually think that is, compared to a 625 million dollar deficit. If that 625 million could be corrected by that stuff, it would be an easy fix. This is a pretty fair budget consisting of a LOT of cuts EVERYWHERE. I suggest you look at it. I'm not saying SOME of the steps being taken are avoidable...but I don't have to like it. Especially since it's never ending hikes, every single year. And how prevalent is it? LOL. Seriously. In a understated word -- it's SO prevalent it'd make your head spin. It's not only prevalent, it's COMMON. I know a LOT of City workers, and ALL of them know someone doing something illegal. The corruption of the Chicago government is so deep that I bet you actually COULD cut 500 million out of that deficit if you could uncover it all...and I bet Vegas would give me 0 odds on it, since they're probably in on it. Do you actually doubt that our local government isn't that corrupt?

QUOTE (bmags @ Oct 25, 2011 -> 01:28 PM) That 625 million represents teachers policeman fireman maintenance and trash services onto the unemployment ranks. Thus, balance. Why does the 625 million represent only the most important stuff? How come it doesn't represent the millions of dollars Daley's sons stole? Or some other connected politicians aid, or friends, who are making 90k a year to never show up at work? Do we think that this sort of thing is no longer going on? LOL.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Oct 25, 2011 -> 01:27 PM) Some of "the people" cannot, some of "the people" can, but it will impact their lives, some of "the people" can without any impact whatsoever on their life. That's fine if it's a payroll tax...but it's not. So those that "cannot" are f***ed. And because of that, they will need help when they didn't before...and because of that, those that "can, but it will impact their lives" will be asked for more, thus becoming those that can't... So, in essence, the government itself is *helping* create this "class war", is it not?

QUOTE (bigruss22 @ Oct 25, 2011 -> 01:26 PM) I get the impact of these fee hikes, probably more than most 21 yr olds, but shouldn't we be looking more towards rectifying the situation rather than still blaming the past? That's more of what I am trying to get at, we are in a s***ty situation and how do we make the best of it? What is the best action going forward to make sure that the next few generations aren't f***ed? And that should include discussion about feeing/taxing the hell out of people too, but be constructive with the discussion otherwise it's pointless. Oh, the next general IS f***ed...there is no way around it now. The local government has outgrown itself, plain and simple. Will the fix be painless? Nope. But we can't keep things going like this unless they decide everyone's going to get foreclosed on and raise our taxes to the point where we can't afford to do anything but pay taxes and fees (which we are well on our way to doing).

QUOTE (bmags @ Oct 25, 2011 -> 01:23 PM) We have a 3.1 billion dollar budget, we are spending 625 more than that. Saying "it's not the best use of money" is perfectly fine. We have 3.1 billion in tax receipts, and using some of that on a local neighborhood representative is an alright use of money.You won't tackle the debt without tackling the structural issues. So guess what -- spend 625 million less. The people CANNOT afford further tax and fee increases no matter HOW you try to spin this.

QUOTE (bmags @ Oct 25, 2011 -> 01:18 PM) My alderman has a huge amount of area and population to cover. I'm not sure doubling that amt. of area and losing even more responsiveness is the best use of money. edit: i'm trying to give you an idea of just how little shaving off 10-15% of these salaries really does. If we want to make a case for how to solve the cities finances, fine, but you are making an emotional argument about how you hate politicians and therefore they should make no money. Rahm does pay property taxes and sales taxes and income taxes. He does see this. If we are going to make the case that rich people don't feel tax increases, I'll gladly take that and run with it. Hello buffet rule. Whatever the case may be -- my answer isn't to further increase the burden on regular people when they can least handle more of a burden -- as opposed to the "f*** our sons and daughters futures, because we are f***ing morons that don't know how to spend responsibly." The worst part about this is we aren't f***ed...the next generation is. And nobody gives a s***.

QUOTE (bmags @ Oct 25, 2011 -> 01:18 PM) My alderman has a huge amount of area and population to cover. I'm not sure doubling that amt. of area and losing even more responsiveness is the best use of money. edit: i'm trying to give you an idea of just how little shaving off 10-15% of these salaries really does. If we want to make a case for how to solve the cities finances, fine, but you are making an emotional argument about how you hate politicians and therefore they should make no money. Rahm does pay property taxes and sales taxes and income taxes. He does see this. If we are going to make the case that rich people don't feel tax increases, I'll gladly take that and run with it. Hello buffet rule. Not true. I don't think politicians shouldn't get paid well. They're just paid TOO well, and they know it. And yes, I hate politicians, because I actually know some in RL.

QUOTE (bmags @ Oct 25, 2011 -> 01:18 PM) My alderman has a huge amount of area and population to cover. I'm not sure doubling that amt. of area and losing even more responsiveness is the best use of money. We don't have the money, so yes, it is. Again, spending money you don't have doesn't work. Our local government outgrew itself...thus needs to unoutgrow itself from the top down now.

QUOTE (bmags @ Oct 25, 2011 -> 01:09 PM) you've tackled .3% of the deficit. Like I said, it's a start. Thanks for verifying it. I know, we should just not tackle that .3% of the deficit -- and increase taxes instead -- that way we can tackle .1% of it on the backs of people we are already at the breaking point of being nickle and dimed out of their homes and apartments. You just ended this conversation by proving you have no interest in one.

QUOTE (bigruss22 @ Oct 25, 2011 -> 01:07 PM) C'mon man, you're saying everyone is wrong without knowing what is right then. I understand not having every answer, it's not your fulltime job to have them, but if you are going to complain about a specific problem then at least have a few ideas of how to help solve it. And the second point is very interesting, does anyone have some history behind that offhand? This is what I know -- what Preckwinkle proposed -- and here I am defending people in unincorporated suburbs: "Suburban commissioners were especially concerned about Preckwinkle's idea to institute a special tax on each of the estimated 100,000 unincorporated residents to help balance the budget, which had a projected shortfall of $315 million. The tax would amount to an average of $150 per household, Preckwinkle said today." I'd be concerned, too. Considering this is just ONE of many fee increases and other tax hikes. Let's not forget the tolls are going to double, too. 150$ on each household just for that one line item? That's exactly what people need...less money for themselves. Not for nothing, but that 150$ could be going to someones daughters or sons college funds...instead, it'll somehow end up being wasted by Government spending projects or making up for budget shortfalls they should have noticed 10+ years ago. And that's the worst part about it -- it's not even us that are being punished by these f***heads now -- it's our sons and daughters.

QUOTE (bigruss22 @ Oct 25, 2011 -> 12:58 PM) Just curious, what would you like to see them do to get the city back on track in terms of deficit while still running the city adequately? This isn't a very valid question to ask someone that 1) doesn't have access to their books, and 2) didn't ask for the job. I can start with this -- how come Chicago needs 50 aldermen, which is a part time job that pays a full time salary and pension benefits -- yet LA, which is what 50x as big as Chicago, only has 25? Let's start there.

QUOTE (bmags @ Oct 25, 2011 -> 12:56 PM) Come on. A ceo doesn't do it all by themselves either. They have a whole staff helping them out. But they are still considered to be running the company. But, for example, Daley is making a pretty, pretty, pretty penny now as a consultant. Way more than that salary could pay him in 5 years. And I think we agree in many regards, CEO's make too much, too. Then again, my friend is a CEO of a small company -- and get this -- his employees make more than he does. Again, we can go round-and-round here, my point is, these fees and taxes are to the breaking point of hurting people. Those instituting these increases aren't affected by them...but I have to tell you, a LOT of people are...in very bad ways right now. It's just a never ending cycle of increases on everything under the sun...and it's absurd...but what's more absurd to me is you all sit here defending them.

QUOTE (Tex @ Oct 25, 2011 -> 12:43 PM) How many wars the size of Bush's wars have been started since Barack has been in office? Is the current levels greater or smaller under Obama? I'm not giving Obama that much credit, this seemed like the natural arc of the war, but I sure can't give him blame for the current levels of fighting. Is this what you do now? Compare bad to worse in order to make it sound good? What happened to having standards? Comparing anyone/anything to "Bush" means you've set the bar so low, you may as well not bother.

QUOTE (bmags @ Oct 25, 2011 -> 11:47 AM) how much do you think market rate would be for running a city of of dozens of thousands of workers and 6 million people. Probably more than a mid level software engineer. If they were doing it on their own, you'd have a point. Alas, let's stop pretending they are. Rham has an ENTIRE staff of people that help do such things, such as "running a city of dozens of thousands of workers and 6 million people". What you said is a joke...because you make it sound like they do it all by their poor little selves...when in fact they have a HUGE staff on hand to do these everyday tasks you're pretending they do themselves. And not for nothing, but this totally dodges the actual issue at hand -- the very issue I was bringing up in the first place. I reiterate -- they have the money so these nickle/dime increases and fees don't affect them. A mid-level software engineer doesn't -- which was sort of my original point. Even if they're sacrificing in the face of everyone else having to sacrifice, they still make so much that it doesn't affect them.

QUOTE (bmags @ Oct 25, 2011 -> 11:14 AM) I understand. But it is a balancing act. These are tough decisions and I think Rahm is doing a fair job of taking it on. He's been in office about 8 months. The true fights haven't even begun. I make a great living -- in my opinion anyway. If I had to guess, I'd say I probably make double what the average person makes in/around Chicago -- and if these nickle/dime tax hikes, fees, toll road hikes, etc. year after year are affecting me -- I damn well know they're affecting others even worse. Maybe f***face Rham and Preckwinkle need to start off by cutting their own salaries and everyone that works near them before they CUT MY f***ING SALARY in some form of tax increases and fees year after year. Can I afford this? Sure. But I know most average people can't...and unlike a payroll tax -- these taxes affect everyone, including those that CANNOT afford it anymore.

QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Oct 25, 2011 -> 10:39 AM) It is because I am not OK with the way the city and county were run, that I am cheering for having leaders in there now who are actually doing something about it. You, who claims to understand business, should get that - Daley and Stroger (and their predecessors and cohorts) ran their budgets into the toilet, just as SS2K5 said. Do you really expect the new mayor or chairperson to be able to turn it around on a dime in a year? Come back to reality. You can choose to say that Emmanuel and Preckwinkle are the same as Daley and Stroger... but you'd not only be obviously and factually wrong, you'd also be supporting the very thing you don't like. First, I said and maintained for years that Daley and Stroger were running the ship into the ground, while many of you defended how well Daley was running the City. I don't know if you were one of the many that did, but a LOT of people on this board thought Daley was awesome for Chicago. And I guess in some dimension of insanity, you could say that in the short term he did well for the City, only he left record budget deficits and debt in his wake when all was said and done. I never said they're the same. But I also know some of the games they're playing -- like Emmanuel adding "hundreds of police" -- when in fact that's not what he did, as in reality he added LESS THAN ZERO. This is just one outrageous example of what he's doing while claiming to be doing to opposite...so I'm going to just "go out on a limb" and assume he's doing more shady s***, too. Oh, and my benefit for actually cutting police officers off the roles and saving money is that my taxes get to GO UP? Yes, they're cutting...and also raising fees and taxes to the point that people can't afford to save anything. I went back and highlighted/underlined that because it seems lost on many of you. Stop defending it.

QUOTE (bmags @ Oct 25, 2011 -> 10:53 AM) You act like they are raising taxes and pocketing the cash. I act like no such thing. It simply doesn't end...every year they're raising something. I'm not saying they aren't trying to fix things...but there couldn't be a worse time to be raising taxes on people. Some people are barely scraping by and now they get more fees and taxes -- that's perfect to send even MORE people into foreclosure on property, and force others to have to move out of apartments they can no longer afford to rent.

QUOTE (Tex @ Oct 25, 2011 -> 10:25 AM) I was also going to number them and feed them to each other while sending them out to break into houses, well maybe just the black kid . . . Well done. Keep it up. If I was part of your staff, I'd have been Wilson.

QUOTE (Tex @ Oct 25, 2011 -> 04:46 AM) My team of teachers will be doctors, I will be Dr. House, talking in green all day . . . Make sure you go around calling all of your students morons, dumb, idiots...oh, and "fire" them every once in a while. Also, if you're going to do this, do it right...at the beginning of the day, pose a problem that seems to have no solution, and at the last minute, in mid-conversation with someone you actually like, stop and realize you just figured out the solution to the impossible problem and save the day!

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Oct 25, 2011 -> 09:44 AM) That's what happens when the governments credit cards get cut up. I know Daley is treated like a god, but he drove the finances of the City into the toilet. The county and state aren't in much better shape. It's easy for people like Preckwinkle to increase fees and taxes since they make 125k+ per year (if not more), on top of their endless perks and massive pensions. What baffles me is how users on this board are ok with it, and worse, DEFEND it...because obviously they must be rich or something and it doesn't affect them. *Every year* taxes and fees of some form or another have gone up -- hell, what's tax on a cell phone bill these days, approaching 20%? (Yes, TWENTY percent, you read that right). Yet in light of that, budget holes CONTINUE to get bigger...somehow. It's absurd. In a time when the cost of living is skyrocketing, payrolls are down, inflation is increasing at a higher rate than standard pay raises to keep up with it...they add taxes and fees on top of other taxes and fees, because you know..."f*** the people...after all, most of them are so dumb they'll just reelect us anyway". Maybe if they hadn't hired 1000+ people they didn't need in the first place, we wouldn't have to worry about making up for the money they lost over the last X years.

QUOTE (bmags @ Oct 25, 2011 -> 09:37 AM) Those are all fairly productive tax increases. This is in response to both of the above... First, tax increases ALWAYS are "productive", in whatever loose sense of the word "production" you're choosing to use here. Bottom line of any fee/tax, more money is going to the government...but when do we stop? I don't know about you guys, but my property taxes just went up, sticker fees went up, and who knows what other taxes went up -- oh, and let's not forget water bills are about to go up, too...and now this, on top of all of that? I can't speak for you, but I can speak for me, and it's to the point where it's impossible for people to save because all of our extra money is getting taken away by misc. fees and taxes at the local/state level. It's absurd that they need more in light of all the increases that JUST f***ING HAPPENED.

Hey, look at that, Preckwinkle asking for MORE fee hikes and taxes... http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2011-10...x-increase-part Like I've said all along -- the Bush tax cuts simply moved from the feds to the locals...our taxes did nothing but go UP, UP and UP again DESPITE federal taxes being "low".