jphat007

QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Aug 29, 2005 -> 08:07 PM) You're right wins don't matter. Its the ERA. The Sox supposedly have a pretty good defensive team. At the moment, Buerhle has allowed 20 unearned runs this season, an indication of trouble pitching over mistakes, something you would expect the best pitcher in the league to do. Santana, who in your mind is no match for Buerhle, has allowed 3 unearned runs this season. Like I say, if you think wins have anything to do with measuring a better pitcher, then there is no sense arguing. I can't argue with someone who thinks like that.

QUOTE(southsideirish71 @ Aug 29, 2005 -> 08:04 PM) Johan Santana 13-6 with a 3.13 ERA and a 1.00WHIP. He has 195ks and 36bbs overall. In the second half Santana is 6-1 with a 1.54 ERA a .90WHIP. He has 52ks and 10BBs. vs. Mark Buerhle 14-6 with a 2.99 ERA(before this start) and a 1.16WHIP, he has 115ks and 31bbs. In the second half he is 4-3 with a 4.02ERA with a 1.29 WHIP and a 30ks and 10BBs. I can see how Burly has been better, and Johan hasnt proven a thing , those damn Cy Youngs fall off trees like crazy LOL. Yah, lets split up the halves, like that means anything. No reason in the year as a whole when looking a thte best pitcher. There is no argument about who has played better in the second half. I don't care about that. Buerhle has been better overall though. The most important stat for a pitcher is how many runs he gives up. Not how he does it, and Mark has been better in that this year. Furthermore, who cares about his Cy Young last year. What the hell does that have anything to do with who has been the better pitcher this year.

QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Aug 29, 2005 -> 07:59 PM) What stat is that? Please don't say ERA. Right now the difference between Buerhle and Santana is 0.07 , and going in different directions. Wins would be the most important to me. Buerhle has 1 more win, playing on a team that is 10 games better. Well. If you think wins is teh best way to measure a pitcher I just can't argue with you then. Reading something like that just blows my mind, so it's no point in arguing anymore really.

QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Aug 29, 2005 -> 07:53 PM) See, people on this board do some good research. How has he proven anything. IN the only stat that matters, Burly has been better.

I just don't understand. I've never heard fans argue against their own players so much. Players who play on teh best team in teh AL no less.

QUOTE(southsideirish71 @ Aug 29, 2005 -> 07:49 PM) Johan Santana is the best pitcher in the league. Um. Get back to me when he has an better ERA.

QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Aug 29, 2005 -> 07:48 PM) You need to do better research. Buerhle has 0 wins against the Angels, you claim he has 2. Beating Detroit and Baltimore really is nothing to hang your hat on. Boston and Oakland are possible playoff opponents, and he was tagged. He had quality starts against both those teams. I thought people would realize that by saying he beat them was referring to him being in a position to beat them by pitching extremely well. Once his offense blew it, once his bullpen blew it. But your right. I gave everybody too much credit. I should have spelled it out.

QUOTE(quickman @ Aug 29, 2005 -> 07:47 PM) not trying to be dumb, right now we are getting routed for the second day in a row with our aces on the mound. You can shurk it off to "it happens" if it continues tommorow, you can shurk it off again, if we get swept, well its a problem. We are not playing well lately. That too is a fact. You can lean on the win streak but we beat a light hitting team in Minny and a last place team in seattle. No biggie. We aren't hitting well lately. But I"m not talking about the team. I'm talking about Mark.

QUOTE(SleepyWhiteSox @ Aug 29, 2005 -> 07:45 PM) If true, not bad at all... And I applaud your effort in defending Mark. Only on this board do people get after the best pitcher in the league. It's incredible.

QUOTE(Frankensteiner @ Aug 29, 2005 -> 07:45 PM) There are things called unearned runs that you might want to look at. Wow. There is a reason an unearned run doens't go in a pitchers ERA.

QUOTE(Milkman delivers @ Aug 29, 2005 -> 07:44 PM) You said he beat LA twice. He won neither game. That's wrong research. By beating I meant being in a position to win if his offense or bullpen didn't suck. That's why you measure a pitcher by ERA and runs given up and quality starts and not wins and losses. Sorry you didn't know that.

QUOTE(SoxFanForever @ Aug 29, 2005 -> 07:43 PM) What????? You just said he beat Anaheim twice. Now that you are proven wrong it is the offenses fault? Pick a path and go with it. He gave up 1 run against Anaheim and didn't get the win. You can't use wins and losses when looking at a pitchers success.

QUOTE(Frankensteiner @ Aug 29, 2005 -> 07:42 PM) He got murdered by Oakland 3 times and got hit around by Boston twice. Couple that with two poor showings against Minnesota and it's easy to build a case for Buehrle not pitching well against good teams. He gave up 3 runs to Boston in one game. He gave up 2 runs to Oakland in one game. But you are right. He got murded in all five. It's easy to make a case if you don't use facts.

QUOTE(fathom @ Aug 29, 2005 -> 07:41 PM) Watch the personal attacks I'm not attacking anyone. I'm attacking the posts. I just can't stand wrong posts where people say crap without even doing research.

QUOTE(Milkman delivers @ Aug 29, 2005 -> 07:39 PM) He hasn't beaten LA at all, so you're making up stats. Cleveland was bad when he beat them, and Baltimore was awful the second time. Playoff teams, he hasn't beaten. WTF. Now you are trying to pin wins and losses on a pitcher with teh offense we have? Are you kidding me? Do you understand what you are saying. HE can only limit how many runs they score. He can't score for our offense. And playoff teams ususally have good hitting or pitching.

QUOTE(quickman @ Aug 29, 2005 -> 07:37 PM) you seem like an apologist for the team. and before you say I am negative, let me state I am truthful. Spot the tendencies, see the holes. I am too old to fall in love with players and be a fan like a kid. I want a winner. You can't wish for winners, they actually need to be made. I stated a fact. There is no apologizing. How can you be an apologist for the best team in the AL. YOu want a winner? You have one, by 5.5 games in the freaking AL. I just get sick of some of these incredibly dumb posts I'm reading.

QUOTE(fathom @ Aug 29, 2005 -> 07:33 PM) I'd still take Buehrle over 90 pct of the pitchers in baseball. I think people are just disappointed that he's struggled against the top teams he's faced this year. But he hasn't. Thats just the f***ing thing. Nobody bothers to look anything up. He's gotten hit around by Oakland twice and Boston once. Lots of awesome pitchers get beat around by those guys. Seriously. At least do some research before spouting off garbage. Two of his non QS are against KC. I suppose that makes him not a great pitcher because he can't dominate the bad teams. I mean, i just can't believe what I"m reading.

QUOTE(Milkman delivers @ Aug 29, 2005 -> 07:31 PM) Show me the good team's he's beaten? Cleveland 3 times, Texas once, Anaheim 2 times, Baltimore 2 times, Det 3 times. He has a quality start in 19 of 25 starts. And he leads the league in ERA, and 2 of those are Oakland, who owns him. Two are even KC. He's beaten plenty of good teams. And happens to lead the league in ERA. Are you still being serious? I mean you can't be.

QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Aug 29, 2005 -> 07:30 PM) Great. He's good against everyone except probable playoff opponents. And theres a good reason for that. They have good freaking offenses. And he still has a quality start against BOTH of those teams. I just can't believe what I am reading. I get dumber by the minute reading this thread.

QUOTE(fathom @ Aug 29, 2005 -> 07:30 PM) I'm just saying, it's not just him. Everyone in the media seemed to think that just cause Pods was back, it would mean the entire offense would pick up. Well the offense played much better when Podsednik was not hurt. That was there point.

QUOTE(Milkman delivers @ Aug 29, 2005 -> 07:27 PM) Because he mainly feeds off the garbage of the league. Look, I love Buehrle, but the guy hasn't performed that great this year against better teams. Wow. I just showed you that he has pretty much dominated everyone buy Oakland and Boston. What the hell are you talking about. Go look at his game log. Cleveland, Detroit, Baltimore, Anaheim, etc. etc. How come everyone hasn't crushed the lesser teams and have a low ERA like Buerhle? Because he has the best f***ing ERA in the league. Unreal.

QUOTE(fathom @ Aug 29, 2005 -> 07:27 PM) I thought Pods was supposed to jumpstart this offense? Nevermind the fact that he's hit the ball hard twice.

QUOTE(quickman @ Aug 29, 2005 -> 07:24 PM) didn't I say buerhle would give up 6 or 7 before leaving. that was in the first inning. PS Mcarthy get shelled. 6 runs. Well, I would have agreed had I known we would play s***ty D tonight.

QUOTE(Frankensteiner @ Aug 29, 2005 -> 07:20 PM) Watch the games much? He has the best ERA in the f***ing league. There are only so many bad offenses in the league. He's dominated Cleveland, Detroit, Texas before tonight, the Angels, Baltimore. The only good teams that he hasn't pitched well against are Oakland and Boston. I got news for you. A lot of pithcers have that problem. This is unreal what I'm reading tonight. The f***ing ERA leader. Wow.

QUOTE(Milkman delivers @ Aug 29, 2005 -> 07:20 PM) No, I'm dead serious. He hasn't been beating good teams, the Indians being the exception. As a team, we've owned them. Wow. Just wow.