RockRaines

QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Mar 6, 2007 -> 06:12 PM) You have signed Mr. Mediocre to a 3 year extension, which is basically a 4 year contract. Why lock yourself into mediocrity? I thought everyone said there would be a market correction anyway? I'd rather pay someone $13 million-$15 million a year who wins, than pledge all that money to Javier Vazquez. If the White Sox can commit over $40 million the next 4 seasons to Javier Vazquez, there is no reason Dye or Buerhle or Crede or for that matter (and I'm glad he's gone) Garcia should go elsewhere. Thats where you are thinking far too linear. We have locked ourselves into a very affordable contract with a pitcher that costs more on the open market. If he does not perform like we want him to, we have assured ourselves a very movable contract. Because he is a bargain, and because of his talent, we can deal him or keep him depending on our needs. It is a much better strategy than letting him go for nothing and spending 14-15 million over 5-6 years on a free agent just because they are one of the only ones available. THAT contract is very stationary.

QUOTE(Flash Tizzle @ Mar 6, 2007 -> 05:17 PM) This organization had to weight their options. We're extending Vazquez now after a fairly mediocre season. If Williams waits until 2008, perhaps Vazquez doesn't significantly improve and we have a better idea of what to do with him. Yet, if he has a breakout season, we're paying 14-16 million in arbitration and the likelihood of extending him with a contract comparable to today is impossible. s***, if Flash likes this deal, its even more ridiculous to me why anyone cant. Freddy is going to get 14+ in free agency, Javy in arb would have had most likely 13 or so. Even without the fact that he is capable of being a top of the rotation guy, this is just a great business deal plain and simple. QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Mar 6, 2007 -> 05:54 PM) Because A. if he sucks in 2007 you can't get rid of him. And B. If I'm reading it correctly about $23 million more has been committed to the 2009 and 2010 combined payrolls. I would have rather rolled the dice and let him play this season out. If he came up big and you had to pay him $3 million-$4 million extra in 2008 so what, at least your paying for results seen. Either that or trade him for a package of minor leaguers and spend away at the free agent market. If Gio, Danks and Floyd are as good as KW says they are, I was in the room when he said Gio and Danks are the top 2 lefthanded pitching prospects in baseball, and we all know what he says about Floyd, you don't need to spend $12 million finding a mediocre starting pitcher. Garland and Contreras would still be around. Spend away in the free agent market? You are mad at adding payroll at a decent cost the next couple of years, but you want us to "spend" in the free agent market? Do you know how much money we would have to commit to get a decent veteran pitcher in this market? You are talking 5+ years at at least 13 million per year. Which is locking up every more money in the future. QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Mar 6, 2007 -> 05:39 PM) It does change the amount of money available to make offers on one of the better free agent classes in a long time. Yeah, now we have more money available next year.

QUOTE(Rowand44 @ Mar 6, 2007 -> 04:41 PM) Probably because most of us aren't convinced that he's a good pitcher. Thats fine. But who else could you lock up on the market for that money that would be a better option?

That last guy the Rockies put out there from single A looked really really good for a kid that age. 6-7 with good control and good stuff.

QUOTE(Kalapse @ Mar 6, 2007 -> 04:37 PM) Well if you want to get all technical and s*** Vazquez was better than Buehrle last season and got less than half of what Buehrle is going to get in his next deal. hes going to get around 3-5 million less per year than Freddy and probably 2 less years. Maybe javy didnt put together a full year last year of great ball. But once he made significant changes to his delivery, he put together 2 of his best months. He is a good pitcher, signed below market value. I dont understand how anyone could have a problem with this at all.

QUOTE(chiguy79 @ Mar 6, 2007 -> 03:59 PM) with all the negativity on Javy last year I forgot over the off-season how good he looked down the stretch...some agonizing losses for sure. I think it is important for the sox not to have a total youth movement in the staff over the next 2-3 years so we will need some consistency. Lets see Gooch and JD signed!! Exactly. Once javy moved over to the left side of the rubber and change his hips, he posted 2 consecutive sub 4 ERA's he also increased his K total and lowered his BAA. in those two GREAT months of pitching he went 2-5 with about a 3.6 ERA and 79 k's in 72 IP.

QUOTE(Hideaway Lights @ Mar 6, 2007 -> 04:00 PM) We are talking about a guy who's gotten two shots to pitch in the majors and utterly FAILED in the weaker league, and then moves to the tougher league to pitch after utterly failing in triple A, right? I just want to make sure I have my story straight here. ok, so your answer to my question? Or would you like to run around in circles some more?

QUOTE(U can putitontheboarrrrd...YES @ Mar 6, 2007 -> 03:58 PM) Didnt want Javi on the sox when we got him, and I still dont. I dont see what others see in the guy. As far as who we could have signed in his place for that money, off the top of my head I dont know. Maybe Vazquez is really all they could get. The money really isnt the issue I have anyway, its the fact that hes gonna be here 3 more years that bothers me. Well, contrary to your own personal fantasy organization, money is an issue in the real baseball world, and Javy just signed for less than he would have gotten in the open market. In this past offseason, he would have gotten better contracts than Meche, Lilly, Marquis, pretty much all of them. He took a hometown discount, and we got the good end of the deal. I am expecting good things out of him this year. When he finally moved over to the edge of the rubber and kept his hips closed, he posted ERA's of 3.41 and 3.82 in 2 complete months.

QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Mar 6, 2007 -> 03:55 PM) Meche's contract was ridiculous. KW would even say that. Vazquez is a 3 year extension so the Sox are stuck with him for 4. Meche usually wins a couple more games than he loses. Meche may not have the "stuff" Vazquez has, but he has at least similar results, and if he's overpaid, so is Vazquez. All of the contracts are ridiculous, which is why is was good to sign Javy for less than market price, even less than he would have gotten in arb, you following?

QUOTE(Hideaway Lights @ Mar 6, 2007 -> 03:55 PM) Floyd has a hard time maintaining a 6.00 era in AAA and you'll saying he'll be our fourth starter in 08? Now that's a half-full glass... Well then who else do you have in there with your "young rotation"

QUOTE(Hideaway Lights @ Mar 6, 2007 -> 03:54 PM) Unlike many in this forum, I am onboard with going completely young if it makes sense for a season. I'm saying I would have let Vazquez go and developed if it made sense. So you would have lost Vaz for nothing. And then lost around 90-100 games? Then your career as GM would be pretty much dead. Congrats.

QUOTE(U can putitontheboarrrrd...YES @ Mar 6, 2007 -> 03:49 PM) Fair enough, I see your point. I still dont like the deal though. Ok, then tell me what a fair deal would have been. Or tell me what fantasy pitcher that would could have signed for that money that could have fit into the rotation. Heath's arm motion looks ALOT like Kenny Rogers.

QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Mar 6, 2007 -> 03:49 PM) their k rates were pretty comparable last season. Meche wins at a higher pct. for his career. Their ERA's if you adjust for AL are pretty close, Meche's would probably be better. So, basically you have k rates being close one year, and meche hasnt yet had a good year. Couple that with meaningless records and we still got the better deal. Javy at 3 years >>>>>>>>Meche at 5 QUOTE(Hideaway Lights @ Mar 6, 2007 -> 03:49 PM) Again, what is our plan for 2008? Is our plan to build our team around Garland (which I agree with), and Vazquez (which I don't agree with)? Is Vazquez good enough to be a number 2/3, with a bunch of kids in the rotation? Surely he's not. He hasn't had a good season in four years. And before we trot out all the different league-team-circumstances he's pitched in, there are good pitchers who are able to move leagues and teams and figure it out. ok, so what fantasy pitcher will we sign for that spot in the rotation and for how much money?

QUOTE(Reddy @ Mar 6, 2007 -> 03:46 PM) im not getting you - how can you be against a deal this cheap in a market where Gil Meche got 55 million for 5 years??? Javy is lightyears better than Meche and actually has potential to still put things together. He had the best peripherals on the sox last year meaning he has a greater chance of doing just that - putting together a really good year. but, but , but. His record, his record!!!!! Lets just have a rotation full of rookies!!!!

QUOTE(Hideaway Lights @ Mar 6, 2007 -> 03:46 PM) Again, let's take a look at his run support in April and May, shall we? How quickly they forget... Please go ahead.

QUOTE(Hideaway Lights @ Mar 6, 2007 -> 03:43 PM) Because I would rather go with younger pitchers who EVERYONE is tauting in this McCarthy deal, who will put up .500 numbers at a circa-5.00 era for about 8 million per annum less. How hard is this to understand? Vazquez has great stuff. He's also a loser. So you want to put in a guy who isnt ready for the majors, a bullpen guy, and who else? This isnt xbox, you need good pitchers to anchor your rotation, especially as you inject younger guys into the lineup. And once again, every time you mention wins and losses for a pitcher's worth, you lose credibility.

QUOTE(Hideaway Lights @ Mar 6, 2007 -> 03:41 PM) Haw, haw! You tell em Rob Neyer! Thank god wins and losses aren't that relevant to the game of baseball. They are probably one of the least important statistics for a pitcher. Not sure what YOU are thinking.

QUOTE(Hideaway Lights @ Mar 6, 2007 -> 03:36 PM) When it's all said and done, Buehrle may be the one of the best left handed pitchers of his era. Vazquez is and will always be a coulda-shoulda guy If you can't look at his career and see that, I don't know what to tell you. best meaning? Top 5? What? I can tell you what to tell me. What is the problem with signing a pitcher, less than market price, less years than the market dictates, basically less money than he would get in arbitration, with a high talent level. You wont find someone who knows the baseball market and player talent levels that thinks this is a bad deal. When it comes down to it, you should pay attention to one thing: They know more than you.

Russell doesnt have much control as Hawpe hits a 500 footer.

QUOTE(Hideaway Lights @ Mar 6, 2007 -> 03:30 PM) losing his as a FA with no compensation? Sounds good to me. I thought we were stockpiling young arms for a reason I guess this is another nail in Buehrle's coffin Yes, and they would all be ready NEXT YEAR!!! Wooooo fantasy baseball. He took less money to stay with the Sox for a shorter contract than the market dictates. Crap, Jason Freaking marquis signed a 3 year deal, and that was a shot in the dark.

QUOTE(U can putitontheboarrrrd...YES @ Mar 6, 2007 -> 03:28 PM) I dont think that at all. I was hoping Javi would have been traded before we got to this point regardless of the Freddy & Bmac deals. Before we signed him for less than he would have gotten in arbitration? Hmmmm.

QUOTE(Hideaway Lights @ Mar 6, 2007 -> 03:25 PM) If he goes 9-13 with a 5.50 ERA he gets more than 11 mil in arbitration? Or is this based on your perception of Vazquez succeeding? Again, everyone, this is a high risk move in some ways. Like it or not, there is a chance this guy could psychologically fall off the cliff he seems to teeter on and put up ridiculously bad numbers. Every contract is a risk. He will eat up 200 innings and have 200k's at a reduced price during a short 3 year contract. The risk is lower than you may think. But then again, not many people know what you are thinking.

QUOTE(southsideirish71 @ Mar 6, 2007 -> 03:24 PM) There is a not so bright group that thinks that because Vazquez took 3 years and 34 million, that Freddy would of taken the same. Freddy is going to make silly money, probably with the Mets, next year. It will be for 4 to 5 years and for boocoo money. if Freddy gets less than 5 years I will be surprised. I envision a 5 year 60 million dollar deal at least for FG, especially after he kills in the NL this year.

his salary over the past 3 years: 2004 New York Yankees $9,000,000 2005 Arizona Diamondbacks $11,000,000 2006 Chicago White Sox $12,000,000 We extended him for almost no serious increase. Considering what the price tag is for talent these days, I likey.

QUOTE(U can putitontheboarrrrd...YES @ Mar 6, 2007 -> 03:19 PM) Who gives a s*** what Gil Meche got? Below market value or not, this contract sucks. 3 more years of '5 an out' Javi? Yeah, great move KW. Yes, lets forget the market price of pitching all together, and just offer players what YOU think they should have. Hmmm great call. You must be a shrewd businessman.