clujer420

Well... We could have elected to sign Ray Ray for $8M a year, and forgotten about trading for Colon (that's where Ray's $8M is going, afterall). Would you rather have done that? Look...we've got some question marks. Every team does (even the mighty Yankees) -- that's what makes the season fun. If we had a sure thing, sure it would be fun for a while, but part of what made 2000 so great was that we weren't expecting grandeur. It just kind of happened. We've got a great offense this year, and with Colon, we've got the best pitching potential we've had since the early 90's. I like our chances.

His OBP was .384 (in limited time, yes - but that's pretty darned good). Over a full season, that would lead to about 120 or 130 runs with the guys he's got hitting behind him. That's nothing to turn your nose up to.

I've said Foulke was better than Koch for the past 2 years, so even though Foulke is not on the team anymore, I have to stay true -- Foulke is a better closer than Billy Koch. However... As I've said before, I think there was MUCH more than met-the-eye with the Foulke/Sox situation last season. After struggling in a couple of games, the Sox went to a "closer-by-committee" system, and that gave Keith virtually 0 save chances, and was "demoted" to the 7th and 8th innings. He pitched great, but was never able to get his role of closer back. Why? Why was our best closer of the past 10 years unable to get his job back? I say something must have happened behind the scenes to prevent that. Maybe he wasn't as OK with it as he claimed to be. I think he pissed off management, and that sealed his fate. That said, I think the Sox went down slightly when they made this trade. Koch is a good closer -- one of the best in the league. But, in 2000 and 2001, Foulke was a great closer -- probably behind only Mariano Rivera. I look for Koch to have around 40 saves. He'll probably blow 5 or 6, and will not have an ERA as good as Keith did with the Sox. With all that said, I think it was a GOOD trade by the Sox. They got a guy that is definitely going to close (none of this "closer-by-committee" s***), and everyone's role is clearly defined... Innings 1-6 -- Starter Inning 7 -- Gordon Inning 8 -- Marte Inning 9 -- Koch Obviously, we'd like the starters to go as long as possible, but that isn't too bad of a system. Everyone knows what's going on, and as long as we stay competitive, everyone's happy.

UGH. Spring Training means NOTHING. The only thing it's good for is to find the occasional diamond in the rough, and to get your players stretched out for the 8 month long season that starts in about 30 days. Pitching our #4, potential #5, our possible long reliever, and a minor leaguer, the Sox aren't concerned with winning. They're concerned with seeing what they're throwing and how they're throwing it. It's not about numbers, it's about how their pitches are working. This game wasn't on TV, so who knows how they looked. It's possible to pitch well and still get rocked. Bottom line -- WHO f***ING CARES? IT'S THE FIRST EXHIBITION GAME.

I disagree. The Sox lineup SHOULD score so many runs that Joe won't be under much pressure at all IMO. You guys are suggesting numbers like .280 25 100, and he's going to be our 7th guy, and our 6th biggest threat or so. The 6th biggest threat in the lineup doesn't have any pressure on him, and he SHOULD see some good pitches (since he'll be at the bottom of the order and teams won't want to dick around with him and put him on base). That said, we shouldn't expect too much out of him. Just solid defense and timely basehits will suffice.

Yes, Paul has tried to end this "debate", but Thomas needed to have one last word on it so he could put it behind him. Say what you will about Frank, but Paul had NO right to criticize him publically last season. If Paul wants to be a team leader, he should have gone to Frank and talked to him about it face to face like a man. That's what leaders do. Not saying that Frank isn't partially to blame, but I'm saying that Paulie hasn't been a saint, either. Hopefully, they have made amends, and while I'm sure they'll never be best of friends, hopefully they can play together without all the distractions. Hey, Bonds and Kent got into a shoving match in the dugout, and they came within a few outs of winning it all -- so it's definitely something that's do-able.

His OBP in the 2nd half of 2002 was .407, and he's got the ability to steal 20 bases -- why SHOULDN'T Jerry consider him for the #2 slot?

Taking it a step further, we've really got 5 guys capable of 30+ (almost all of them did it last year). Paulie should have, but slumped in the 2nd half, Frank almost certainly will, Mags is a shoe-in, Carlos seems poised for a stand-out season, and an excited Jose (his quotes have been very encouraging) could do it too. I don't want to get too excited and have a 2001-like letdown, but I think this optimism isn't too far-fetched at all. Hopefully we can have a great year from either Miguel or Joe C to add a cherry to the top of the 2003 sundae.

Well, I agree. We've got a fantastic lineup even without Frank. But, even with his struggles over the past couple of seasons, have you noticed the difference in the appearance of our lineup when he is in there vs. when he isn't? Just the name THOMAS appearing in the 3rd slot has an impact on you, even if he's in an 0-12 slump -- because the fans (and opposing pitchers) know he's going to break out of it in a big way, and that it's only a matter of time. And yes, Frank has several big years ahead of him. He wants to get to 500 HR and guarantee himself a spot in Cooperstown, and with 348 career, he'll need about 4 or 5 solid seasons to get there. He would prefer to do it in a Sox uniform, but no matter where he is, he'll do his best to achieve that exclusive number. Let's see..he needs 152, so if he plays another 5 years, that's "only" a bit less than 31 a year (30.4 to be exact). Even when he has a "bad year", he nearly gets that, so he should get there pretty easily (barring injuries, of course). Hey, Frank doubters... :fyou

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb...s_cws&fext=.jsp That's one long link. Anyway, if Carlos can have a break-out season, just imagine what that would do to our line-up. Could we have 3 guys hit 35+ (40??)? Opposing pitchers:

1991 -- Frank .318, 32, 109 Sox record -- 87-75 (12 over) 1992 -- Frank .323, 24, 115 Sox record -- 86-76 (10 over) 1993 -- Frank .317, 41, 128 Sox record -- 94-68 (26 over) 1994 -- Frank .353, 38, 101 Sox record -- 67-46 (21 over) 1995 -- Frank .308, 40, 111 Sox record -- 68-76-1 (8 under) 1996 -- Frank .349, 40, 134 Sox record -- 85-77 (8 over) 1997 -- Frank .347, 35, 125 Sox record -- 80-81 (1 under) 1998 -- Frank .265, 29, 109 Sox record -- 80-82-1 (2 under) 1999 -- Frank .305, 15, 77 Sox record -- 75-86 (11 under) 2000 -- Frank .328, 43, 143 Sox record -- 95-67 (28 over) 2001 -- Frank .221, 4, 10 (20 games) Sox record -- 83-79 (4 over) 2002 -- Frank .252, 28, 92 Sox record -- 81-81 (.500) Looking at this, you see a few things. Firstly, Frank's career numbers are f***ing incredible. He was hitting 40 and driving in 120 when it was actually an accomplishment. Secondly, you see that while the Sox didn't always win when Frank had a great year (such as 1995 and 1997), they certainly haven't won without him playing like himself (their best non-Frank year was 2001, and they were 4 games over .500). With Frank playing like we've all gotten used to, the Sox are an average of 12 games over .500 (certainly in contention for a playoff spot). With Frank playing poorly (or like 2001, not playing at all), the Sox are an average of 3.25 games over .500 (in contention for 1st tee at the local country club). And for the record, Frank's bad years, according to me and most everyone else, were 1998 (29 HR and 109 RBI), 1999 (hit .305), 2001 (only played 20 games), and 2002 (28 HR and 92 RBI). His good years were 1991-1997 and 2000. So, for those of you who say the Sox will be better off without him and you can't wait for him to be gone, you'd better be careful what you wish for, because you just might get it.

Hmmm...Garland and Wright are a pretty good 3/4 combo. However, if Sox management doesn't add some zeroes to the paychecks of Buehrle and Colon soon, they'll be a pretty weak 1/2 combo soon. I know that Mark can't become a free agent until 2006 (I think), but that's not the point. If he's putting together solid seasons (he's 2 for 2 so far), he should be compensated. Besides that, he's going to kill the Sox in arbitration if he continues to win nearly 20 games with an ERA in the 3's. The Sox should wise up and pay him and keep him happy. Then sign Colon before the Yanks or BoSox can get their claws into him this coming off-season. put a Sox hat on this little guy and have him be the Sox '03 team logo

True. Us KW bashers know this . We give him flack for lying to the fans..... reportedly of course. KW backers will say that KW offered MB a Zito-esque contract..... only he offered MB the type of money that Zito is getting on the front end of his contract. KW is playing the semantics game here. KW should just come out and tell us like it is and not try to pass something off that isn't completely there Guess I'm not up on the news... What did Kenny SAY he offered Mark?

Somebody's going to have to take the blame. KW is the easy target Anytime you can get a front-line starter like Bartolo Colon without giving up any key players, you do it. If Bartolo flops for some reason (only injury could cause that, IMO), then that's Kenny Williams' fault? That's ridiculous. I agree with you Clu. The point I was trying to make is that if Bartolo sucks, Bartolo should be the one who gets the blame..... not KW. But how many people have you heard blame Todd Ritchie for sucking ass last year? Not many. It was a shoulder thing, or it was Nardi, or he never threw his curve is what most posters here say in regards to Ritchie sucking donkey dong last season never really blaming TODD RITCHIE for constantly being lit up like a candlestick. After all, KW wasn't the one going out to the mound every 5 days. However, when a pitcher is about as effective as a BP pitcher and you give up 3 arms to get him, inevitably KW has to shoulder some of the blame. Sox fans know getting Bartolo was a great move..... if only for one year. God forbid Colon sucks this season, I think most Sox fans know that KW doesn't deserve any blame on this one. When you get a chance to pick up a 20-game winner for practically nothing, you do it. I agree with you regarding the Todd Ritchie trade. I think Kenny got a bit too anxious after the 2001 season and the debacle that occurred. He got David Wells for the 2001 season, and after that flopped big time (not only was he ineffective and injured, he caused problems with the team superstar), Kenny felt that he needed to get someone to help the Sox win in 2002. He thought Todd Ritchie could be that guy, and had he not been hurt, maybe he would have been -- afterall, for the first month and a half or so, he was our best pitcher. But, I think he lost sight of the future when he traded so many young arms to get a guy with a mediocre resume at best. Bad trade -- but there is no use on continuing to talk about it like so many people on this board are doing. It's over and done with. That said, he's made some good moves too. He got Damaso Marte for a guy that had pretty good minor league numbers, but probably wasn't going to find room on the Sox team anyway (at least not anytime soon), and he acquired Bartolo Colon. He's also brought in 2 quality bench players in Brian Daubach (thus addressing our need for a power left-hander) and Armando Rios. And we're 1 phone call by Kenny Rogers away from getting a guy with wins in the teens in 2002 with an ERA in the mid-3's for peanuts. If that happens, you'd have to say this off-season was very successful, and Kenny would deserve praise. But will he get it?

All the heat he gets is deserved though for the way he's GM'ed this team with the exception of this offseason..... and that's also debatable (see; Mark Buehrle). He has 3 times the bad moves as he does the good ones. And let's not forget how he is reportedly handling the whole Mark Buehrle situation. Signing Buehrle to a Zito-type deal should be KW's priority. Supposedly lying the the fans telling us he offered MB a "Zito-esque" contract that MB refused, when, in actuality, he offered MB the hundred thousand part in Zito's contract and not the million part is bulls***. KW still has much more to prove to show he is a competant GM. I remember hearing that he offered Buehrle a CC Sabathia-like contract (something like $9M for 4 years). That's always been the Sox "policy", though. They never give pitchers large contracts for some reason. I hope they break the mold this time, though, because they need to keep Buehrle and Colon if they want to contend beyond 2003. Keeping both will cost the Sox about $15-$20M per year. BTW, Kenny can't just offer someone millions of dollars -- the man signing the check has to OK it, and that man is not Kenny Williams.

Somebody's going to have to take the blame. KW is the easy target Anytime you can get a front-line starter like Bartolo Colon without giving up any key players, you do it. If Bartolo flops for some reason (only injury could cause that, IMO), then that's Kenny Williams' fault? That's ridiculous. Yes, he's the easy target -- he's the guy who pulled the trigger on the deal. But, when a guy has a track record of winning, and when you can get him for basically nothing (of course you have to pay his $8.5M salary, but other than that we really gave up nothing), you get him and let the chips fall where they may. I would rather have a GM who makes gutsy choices and takes chances than a guy who is content to stay put, because the Sox don't have all the pieces to go all the way, so in order to get better, deals are going to have to be made -- and of course some will be good and some will be bad, but that's the nature of the sport.

I love listening to Hawk and DJ (and Wimpy more so back in the day) call a Sox game. I live out in California, so I only get to see the Sox when they're on either WGN, ESPN (very rarely), or when they play a local team like the Angels (and this year, the Dodgers ). So all total, that's like 30-35 games a year. I love their insight into certain aspects of the game. Their stories are great too. And of course, I like that they're huge Sox fans and aren't afraid to show it. But, what I think a lot of people who say they're "homers" fail to notice and/or acknowledge is that when the Sox do something stupid or wrong, they are the first ones to say so. If someone makes a baserunning mistake, they tell the fans. If an ump makes a legit wrong call one way or the other, they'll say so (by either saying "Thank you" or "Where was that pitch?"). Overall, they make watching a Sox game all the more enjoyable, and I hope they're around for many more years.

Well, first off, the Cy Young isn't for the best pitcher -- it's for the best pitcher on a team that is in the playoffs (unless someone has an absolutely stellar season). Secondly, it will be hard for Jon to win the Cy Young for the same reason that it's going to be tough for Frank or Mags to win the MVP -- a teammate (Mark Buehrle) will take some votes away from him.

Players from that 2000 team that are no longer here... James Baldwin -- Traded after becoming a walking wound Cal Eldred -- Retired after an incredible 2000 (even though his ERA was high, he somehow won) Ray Durham -- Signed by the Giants for more money than the Sox could give him Charles Johnson -- Was pretty much a rental for the Playoff run Mike Sirotka -- Traded just in time ( ) Keith Foulke -- Traded after falling out of favor with Sox management for some reason Chris Singleton -- Don't remember how we "lost" him Jim Parque -- Herbert Perry -- Traded to the Rangers, I think (or maybe TX just signed him, I don't remember) Ken Hill -- LOL, that was funny for a couple of games I'm sure there are more...but I think those are the main ones. So how did Kenny Williams "run this team into the ground"? We've replaced our rotation (most of which is either retired or still not recovered from their injuries) with some great young (and healthy) arms in Dan Wright, Mark Buehrle, Bartolo Colon, and maybe Jon Rauch. We've replaced Singleton/Perry with Rowand/Crede, and we've replaced Ray Ray with D'Angelo, who has tremendous potential (he could score 130 runs quite easily if he can do his job). Our bullpen is better now than it was in 2000 IMO, and our overall team D is probably about the same I'd say. KW takes way too much heat. :fyou

2 things get affected DRAMATICALLY when a team is winning vs. when they are losing... 1) Attendance, and 2) Team chemistry In 2000, the Sox had "great chemistry" largely due to the fact that they were winning. In 2001 and 2002, they were losing, so they "didn't have chemistry". When you're winning, the inter-team fights don't surface, and the media isn't hounding them for the story, like with the Konerko/Thomas situation (Paulie was VERY wrong to criticize Frank, by the way). Most of the key components from the 2000 squad are still here (save Ray Ray and CJ, who was only here for the 2nd half), so there's no reason to believe we can't do it again. Paulie and Mags are much better now than they were then, and once again, Frank has some non-believers to shut up. TO ANYONE WHO DOUBTED OR CONTINUES TO DOUBT FRANK EVER, f*** YOU. He'll prove all of you wrong in '03 while leading the Sox to a run for the World Series. Plus, our pitching should be better than it was in 2000 - that will take a lot of pressure off the offense and allow them to be freer at the plate. BTW, your excessive ............................ is annoying.

Splitting up Mark and Bartolo would do nothing. Where a guy is in the rotation means nothing. All that matters is that every 5th day, you go out, compete, and give your club a chance to win. Whether Jon, Dan, and Jon/Gil/Esteban/Josh are 2, 4, 5 or 4, 5, 2 or 5, 2, 4 doesn't matter -- all that matters is that they do what they're capable of, regardless of their spot in the rotation. And if Bartolo fails, blaming KW is completely insane. Getting Colon for who we got him for was the best trade the Sox have made since the "white flag trade" with the Giants in '97. It's up to him and the rest of the team to come through.

Wins will bring the fans out -- bottom line. If it gets into June and we're playing well, the fans will start showing up (after the cold weather is long gone and we've proven that we're legitimate contenders).

That would be a bitter pill for him to swallow. I think his agent led him down the garden path. The economy is in the tank for most baseball free agents this year. Too bad. Too bad? The guy turned down a $10M offer over 2 years at the beginning of the off-season -- so if he "only" ends up with $1M or $2M per year for playing a game, maybe he'll learn not to be greedy.

I was not aware of the "history", but I stand by what I said. Olivio would learn by watching, yes - but a person learns best by doing. And you can't wait until 2004 to let him do it, because Sandy probably won't be around to help him.

Yeah, go for it. I'd like to hear how certain players are doing in ST and stuff like that. One thing that a friend of mine asked me is what Frank's weight is coming into ST. He was supposedly working out for hours a day during the off-season, so one would think he'd be in mid-90's shape. Anyone have a clue?