NorthSideSox72

I think you guys read too much into the "leave them alone" thing. They aren't literally saying nothing. They are just not doing aggressive re-working with them. And I refuse to believe they haven't started doing more things with him, as he continues to struggle. That just makes no sense to me. But in Hawkins' case, I think it is certainly time for more drastic measures. I think we are seeing a player that isn't taking to coaching, at this point. That is the more likely scenario then, hey, we're just going to not say anything and see what happens.

QUOTE (fathom @ Jul 16, 2013 -> 09:48 AM) This is from the baseball prospectus daily minor league report: Courtney Hawkins, CF, White Sox (High-A Winston-Salem): 1-5, R, 3 K. I just got a pessimistic report on Hawkins from someone I trust in the industry: “I’m not sure he [Hawkins] makes it to and/or out of Double-A.” That is very worrisome. If he doesn't make some adjustments, he definitely won't get past AA, if that. That's not even a question. But with the tools he has, if he is willing/able to make some changes, I still believe he has a very high ceiling.

I've deleted some posts, FYI.

READ THIS This thread has been allowed to go on its merry way, crossing the line repeatedly, but we let it ride for now given the fiery nature of the topic. But it has now crossed lines that cannot be crossed. From this post forward, we're going to reign it in, and take action on posts that break the Buster rules you all signed off on. We also reserve the right to act on some previous posts. Be careful what you type.

For those talking about Hawkins' legs and balance, I'll point out again the three videos embedded in this article. Read it if you want to, or at least just watch the videos. He's got a ton of weird stuff going on, or at least did earlier in the season. The fact that he has so many clearly mechanical problems actually gives me some hope, as those things can be fixed... if he is willing to listen, and fix them. And that may be the problem. He isn't listening. Also worth noting, I had pointed out earlier his K rate was 57% in his first 70 PA, 36% the next 150... but it has gone way, way up again since then, which is concerning. I really am starting to think he's just not coachable, at least at this point. There is zero chance the Sox haven't talked to him and worked with him on some of these obvious things. I can only hope he grows up enough, quickly enough, to realize it is time to make some changes.

QUOTE (oldsox @ Jul 16, 2013 -> 06:41 AM) White Sox web site. 1. Rankings from MLB (whitesox.com) should always be taken with a huge grain of salt. Their lists are really only meaningful as a way of looking at how the Sox may "like" certain players more than others. 2. Their list is still from the offseason, last I checked. At that time, virtually everyone had Hawkins #1.

QUOTE (pettie4sox @ Jul 15, 2013 -> 01:40 PM) Zimmerman didn't have to prove s*** to the state since they brought the charges on him. The state had to prove that Zimmerman did what he did with ill intent. The not guilty verdict just means Zimmerman won that aspect. He's not innocent by any means. To be clear, the state only had to prove ill intent for Murder 2. With the manslaughter charge it is, as previously discussed, more complicated.

QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Jul 15, 2013 -> 12:14 PM) Not being a criminal lawyer i'm not 100% sure on this, but I really doubt they'd consider the NG verdict a finding of fact as to self defense. If that were the case, there would never be a civil trial after a criminal trial finds someone innocent. OJ for example would have argued that the NG verdict in his case was a finding of fact that he was not the killer. But he obviously didn't make that argument since he was found guilty in the civil case. I think Zimmerman will have to do this whole song and dance over again. In a somewhat similar vein, I am familiar with the Good Samaritan laws. They vary from state to state, but the idea in some form is that regular citizens (not medical or public safety professionals, which is different and sometimes involves Duty to Act) are protected PER SE from criminal liability and IN SPIRIT from civil liability in the act of trying to assist someone who is in danger or hurt/ill. In those cases, criminal cases can only be brought via some exception, usually something like Gross Negligence (like, hey, I bet bashing this guy's head with a rock would help his heart attack, or similarly extreme circumstances). And for civil suits, it does not stop someone from FILING a suit, but it does cause most of those cases to either get thrown out before ever getting to court, or being an easy defense for the accused.

QUOTE (Jake @ Jul 15, 2013 -> 10:56 AM) This is a really good split. I didn't know that. Great post. I love you. Etc. awesome. Normally would be really hard to find that split. But by happenstance, I wrote that Hawkins analysis piece for FS in late April, and has his numbers then through 70 PA. So I was able to work it back from the current numbers to get that split.

QUOTE (lostfan @ Jul 15, 2013 -> 10:42 AM) But the defense didn't use SYG. Not sure how that is relevant. They didn't need to. The defense used self-defense as the argument. They don't need to read the SYG statute, or any other statutes regarding self-defense, as that is already in front of them. SYG is part of the law regarding self-defense in Florida, part and parcel.

I really think if you drill down into the legal aspects here, the problem is in a conflict between laws. The manslaughter charge is intended to align with showing that a person's actions primarily and ultimately led to a death, even if that was not the originial intention (as it would be in murder). Given that basic, common criminal law principle, there isn't much question that what Zimmerman did should be manslaughter. Then there is the stand-your-ground law, which gives special protection to people in confrontations beyond what was on the books (and, yes, beyond what is found in statutes in other states). The protection given here, specifically the law basically stating that you do not have to retreat to avoid conflict, means he was protected in his actions. So really, to me, the problem is specifically the stand-your-ground law. A law which is not only unnecessary, but inherently dangerous. Hopefully it is modified or removed from the statutes at some point in the future. All the rest of these topics, about race, definition of stalking, poor prosecution work, jury decision-making, jury instructions, whether or not people should be able to carry guns, etc., are red herrings here. They make for theater but don't get at the heart of the problem.

WSI and ST are just different sites. There really are advantages to both, it just depends on what you are looking for. I post over there occasionally, but mostly I just like to keep that account open to keep in touch with their Mods/Admins, occasionally sell Sox tickets I can't use from my seasons, and contribute when I see some information missing. I actually got suspended over there once, amazingly, for something I posted on a Tigers board. Long story short, the Tigers fans were asking about Sox boards, and I provided a synopsis. I honestly gave pluses and minuses for both. Turns out some poster from WSI also posted on the Tigers board, clipped out some of my post out of context, sent it to WSI Mods, and poof.. banned. I explained it to them, showed them the whole post, and they let me back. So they weren't totally unreasonable, though I thought the idea of banning someone for what the posted on a different board was a little much. Obviously I chose this site as my primary place, but I can understand how other personalities may prefer WSI's style.

For all the people pointing out that few players (or none) have had as bad a K rate as Hawkins early in their careers and been successful... how many HS draftees went to A+ their draft year? Were playing there at 18 and 19? Some sure, but very, very few. It is such a small group that, really, the comparisons don't mean a ton. It is also worth pointing out that, as of a few days ago (when we were doing the FS T25 write-up), he had K'd in about 57% of his first 70 PA (until just before his injury), but his rate since then has been about 36% over 150 PA. Just something to keep in mind. 36% is bad, but isn't nearly 57% bad. Being worried about Hawkins makes complete sense. Saying he is a "bust" at this point does not.

QUOTE (oldsox @ Jul 14, 2013 -> 07:22 AM) Mike Recchia has put up great numbers at Kanny. Did not play last year. He was in Indy ball last year, and the first part of this year.

QUOTE (flavum @ Jul 13, 2013 -> 01:18 PM) Jacobs is going to Birmingham. again... source?

QUOTE (oldsox @ Jul 12, 2013 -> 06:25 PM) How can you rank a 16 year old who has only played wherever 16 year olds from St. Thomas play. Is he sked for DSL next year? Likely scenario is to be in camp this summer in the DR, maybe some time in AZ in the fall instructionals (maybe), then DSL next summer. That's just my guess though.

QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Jul 12, 2013 -> 04:41 PM) I think Chris Bassitt is by far the biggest miss on the top 25 list IMO. I know he's on the older side, but he's a converted college closer and has pitched very well this year, arguably better than Chris Beck. Also, scouting reports say he has a nice fastball, but needed to improve his secondary pitches. Based on his numbers this year, I'm guessing he's made some progress. As for the top 10 specifically, Micah Johnson not being in the top 10 doesn't make sense to me. I think the age factor is way overplayed and while the defensive concerns are legit, he's got all the tools to be a solid defensive 2B. With hard work/repetition and enough coaching, he should get better in that area. Maybe he doesn't stick at 2B, but its way too early to assume that. I would easily rank him above all but the top 5 prospects on your list. Again, just my opinion. Bassitt was an odd case. I had him at 19, one other person at 28, the other three he didn't make their T30 at all. I like his motion, his fastball, his command, and his offspeed stuff is improving. When he does falter, you can see it in his motion. As he gets more consistent, he's going to be very good. Might still be a reliever, but I believe he's got a good shot at the majors. Johnson may become a 5-10 guy, but I'm pretty comfortable with him at 12 right now, which is right where I had him. Defense is somewhat of a concern, but not my biggest one. My biggest concern is simply that people are pushing him up based on a half season of play. This isn't a 1st round pick here. FOr me, he'd need to tear it up the rest of this year in A+ too before he is into the T10. He may do that, and he may get there.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 12, 2013 -> 02:54 PM) I could totally understand someone rating Phegley that high. My issue with doing so on my list is the injury thing. It'll take 2, 3 years of him putting up an .850+ OPS and playing 140 games a year before I stop worrying that his body will break down if they're not careful. I'd like to think he's legit also, but when I look at his stats with my brain filter, I see a guy with great numbers at a high level...for 1 year, and a guy who has spent years getting to that point. You can't look at it as "a guy who spent years getting to that point" in a vacuum. 2012 was his first full healthy year in the minors. If you look at the number of PA's he got getting to that point, from A to A+ to AA, were actually very small compared to many other prospects. The health issues were the cause, but they kept promoting him anyway, so take that into account. QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 12, 2013 -> 03:01 PM) The sad thing is that my first thought is still "steroids", even though there is no reason to do so. Thanks Bud. I worry about that a lot less than I do with other prospects. I mean, here is a guy who had a blood disorder caused by problems in blood chemistry. You have to think that would make him really, really hesitant to run some sort of harsh chemicals through there. QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jul 12, 2013 -> 03:17 PM) Is there any reason to believe he's changed his offensive approach or swing plane this year? The rap on Phegley was (one of them) that he was a line driver hitter, but not someone capable of hitting a bunch of homers.... Now, every time he swings, he's getting under the ball and putting it up into the air to straightaway LF. Obviously, they're going to start developing a book on him, like has happened the second time around with Puig...going with low and away breaking ball and sliders and busting him inside with fastballs to see if he can make those adjustments. He has said he made some hitting adjustments in the offseason.

Thanks for the info, guys, I appreciate it.

QUOTE (danman31 @ Jul 12, 2013 -> 11:25 AM) That was my thinking, but his recent Kanny stats are scaring me. I hate to be so reactionary, but I'd probably slot him down to 3 if I had it over. Honestly, I think Hawkins at 4 is too high and that's where I put him. It's hard to like a lot about the guys at 2-4. I think it is far too early to worry about his lack of power. However, seeing video of him, I do have some concern about his bat speed. Small sample size though, and bat speed while watching a video is iffy at best. As we discussed while making the list, there is Erik... then there are three high-talent guys with a high bust potential... then the 5-15-ish slots are pretty weak compared to previous years. But the bottom of the list, and the guys just off the list, appear stronger than some previous ones. Better depth, fewer near-ready starting contributors.

QUOTE (danman31 @ Jul 12, 2013 -> 11:02 AM) I had Anderson 2 and Thompson at 3 personally. One of the big problems is that all the 2-4 guys are sliding performance wise. Thompson is in a scary slump and Hawkins we've beaten to death here. Look at Anderson's stats now and tell me he's not Keenyn Walker 2. It definitely reminds me of how Walker performed in Kannapolis in the first half last year before getting promoted. Decent/good average, good walk rate, awful K rate, no power. That's at least a little concerning, but the walk rate gives hope for improvement. QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 12, 2013 -> 11:05 AM) That would be why I would have Anderson after everyone like Hawkins and Thompson. Anderson has the plus speed, defense, and a decent hit tool from the sounds of it. But he doesn't have any power to push him up to the next tier of guys. Anderson did show a little power in JuCo, so I wouldn't dismiss him developing that as time goes on.

QUOTE (SoxAce @ Jul 12, 2013 -> 09:28 AM) I usually disagree with you guys top 10 list every year (although Ozzie Ball and Dan have usually thought similar to myself over the years as well as Cerb.. minus Chris Young who I was not a fan of at the time.. ) but I must say this is a great list boys. No arguments here. Only beef I got is Braulio Ortiz not in the top 25, but don't worry.. he'll be there next season for sure. Great arm. I was high on Webb before most (hell I've picked him as a sleeper candidate since last year), but I'm shocked how much noticed he's got a years time now, though I will admit always thought it would be as a starter. Braulio is a guy to watch for sure. I had him at 25. Webb was on FS's "Next Wave" article in the offseason, where we looked at the "next" 25 or so guys in the system, some of whom were breakout candidates, Webb included.

Here is the FutureSox Top 25 Prospects Midseason List on that site. And here is a link to the discussion thread in the FS area, in case you don't normally venture into there and want to discuss it. We'll lock up this thread, it is just informational. Discussion is over in the FS area.

QUOTE (ChiSox_Sonix @ Jul 12, 2013 -> 08:42 AM) I think Tim Anderson is way too high. I'd still have Hawkins and Thompson ahead of him. Other than that I'd agree with most of the top 10. I personally had him at 4, and we actually had a statistical tie between Anderson and Thompson for 2nd that we had to hash out via discussion.

The full list is now up on FS for your reading enjoyment. Let's keep the discussion going! By the way, as some of you know, the list is done with a voting system (and discussion) involving a handful for people on FutureSox and SoxTalk. The contributors this year were: danman31 witesoxfan Balta1701 Jake and me There is a lot of discussion and work put into this list, and everyone involved deserve some big credit for their contributions.