StrangeSox

QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Dec 14, 2012 -> 03:34 PM) But no one talks about banning alcohol. Because hey, guess what, alcohol serves other legitimate social purposes and, thanks to guns! we know that there will be an explosion of gun violence. Seriously, stop trying to equate guns and alcohol. They are not the same thing.

QUOTE (Wanne @ Dec 14, 2012 -> 03:34 PM) with no bans on alcohol. If they were serious there'd be those interlock devices on all cars... there have been a huge number of restrictions on drunk driving over the past several decades in response to the tragedies caused by drunk driving. the opposite is pretty much true with gun laws. we cannot have a sane conversation in this country about guns thanks to groups like the NRA.

QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Dec 14, 2012 -> 03:32 PM) Because they're generally one or maybe a handful of people involved, and it happens so frequently it's another blip on the news. A gunman killing 30 people happens every few years, and gets much more airtime. If you set the limit at 30 dead, sure, but if you just include all mass shootings it's every couple of months, on average. http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2012/12/1...ince-columbine/

QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Dec 14, 2012 -> 03:30 PM) Gangs. Seriously, that's the answer. No other country has the number of gangs and gang members as the US. It's a small, incredibly violent, group of people in our society. I've looked before but couldn't find a study that looks at homicide rates in non-gang related shootings. I bet it's still higher than the rest of the world, but that number of gun related homicides shrinks to a much more comparable figure. If gangs have significantly less access to firearms...

QUOTE (Wanne @ Dec 14, 2012 -> 03:29 PM) Dude...there's an estimated well over 300,000,000 firearms in America. How on earth do you get them all? Not gonna happen. I'm a law abiding gun owner...and proud of it and carry daily. Have always been under the idea of: "Rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it...". Where's the outrage at the number of drunk driving deaths each year which hover around 12,000? There has been a decades-long campaign against drunk driving with ever-stricter requirements and penalties.

QUOTE (RockRaines @ Dec 14, 2012 -> 03:25 PM) Has anyone gone through the pre-check process to get authorized to be fast tracked through TSA and Customs? SO much harder than buying a gun. A good point I read elsewhere: It's harder for me to get f***ing cold medicine than it is to get guns and ammo in some states.

QUOTE (RockRaines @ Dec 14, 2012 -> 03:25 PM) Has anyone gone through the pre-check process to get authorized to be fast tracked through TSA and Customs? SO much harder than buying a gun. And we're in Illinois, which actually has fairly restrictive gun laws. In many other states, you don't have to do anything but pay the cashier after waiting for a few days.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Dec 14, 2012 -> 03:22 PM) Then it'll happen. But if Dad is such a poor father that he hasn't been seeking help to get his son help with some sort of disorder or hasn't taught him well enough the dangers of guns in the first place, Dad likely doesn't own this gun legally in the first place. Like I said, these sorts of behaviors don't appear overnight and most people don't snap without some sort of warning signs (though warning signs are hard to pick up and decipher at times). If you really run people through a gauntlet to allow handguns, you are severely going to limit the number of handguns in the United States and you will allow for both personal freedom and the ability to still own handguns if they so choose. (I admittedly hate handguns and I do get very uncomfortable around them, even when unloaded and handled by people who know what they're doing, and I don't plan on ever owning one) I think we're on the same page here, I was just devils-advocating it.

QUOTE (Wanne @ Dec 14, 2012 -> 03:14 PM) This is part of my point. They're usually some loner person without many friends...just seems really coincidental...instead of Joe Blow who's been doing the same mundane job sorting mail for years and snaps on his boss. Who effin' does this kind of stuff? People with serious mental illnesses who literally cannot grasp reality, mostly.

QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Dec 14, 2012 -> 03:13 PM) Can you find the same statistic for drugs? Because alcohol consumption was insane right before prohibition, and a lot of what curbed that was education and the rise of groups against drinking. There was a bunch of PR campaigns like "if you drink you're killing your family" type stuff. Of course, with that reduction in drinking, came the explosion of crime. Sure, crime enabled...by guns. I don't think we'd reasonably see a bunch of gun and ammo manufacturers and distributors fighting it out in the streets, though. Plenty of black market items exist without the type of violence associated with drug prohibitions.

QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Dec 14, 2012 -> 03:12 PM) You can't make that assumption because people will still end up killing people, they'll just do it a different way. It's a lot easier to kill someone with a gun.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Dec 14, 2012 -> 03:11 PM) Who randomly just "snaps" and starts shooting people? In like 99.9% of these cases, there is something not right with the person that breeds this reaction. That's what the yearly mental aptitude test would be for. Right, people with schzophrenia or some other disorder snap. A yearly required mental health screening would help, but what if it was dad's guns he got a hold of?

QUOTE (3E8 @ Dec 14, 2012 -> 03:09 PM) I still think there's a big difference in cost and difficulty of manufacturing/transporting arms and ammunition compared to alcohol and drugs. According to this, there are over 50 armament manufacturers in the USA. There are four in Canada, one in Mexico. The black market definitely exists, and would have to be met by suppliers overseas, but it would produce a more limited supply. If it reduced firearm homicide in the USA by 20%, then over 2,000 less lives are lost each year using the current rate of death. Right, as much as we rightly all point and laugh at how terribly ineffective alcohol prohibition was, estimates are that it cut consumption by 70%. If we could knock down gun deaths and injuries in this country by 30%, that would be pretty damn good.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Dec 14, 2012 -> 03:01 PM) IIRC there's a .223 rifle involved as well which, .223 + body armor = any moron making some sort of "gun free zones"/teachers should be armed argument needs to be hit in the face with something heavy. like whichever moron made this: ugh gun fetishists are so awful

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Dec 14, 2012 -> 03:02 PM) And the other part that no one wants to mention is that guns are very sophisticated tools to create. QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Dec 14, 2012 -> 02:44 PM) edit: I can make bathtub gin or beer or wine on my own pretty easily. my great-grandparents built a home in Kankakee to do exactly that! fermenting fruit or grain isn't that difficult. owning a machine shop and building guns is considerably more complex.

QUOTE (Y2HH @ Dec 14, 2012 -> 02:56 PM) They're hand guns. IIRC there's a .223 rifle involved as well which, .223 + body armor = any moron making some sort of "gun free zones"/teachers should be armed argument needs to be hit in the face with something heavy.

QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Dec 14, 2012 -> 02:57 PM) He put a vest on and grabbed more than one gun, and there's a body at his house (reportedly). That's not exactly "hey I think i'll go for a stroll today..." So? Someone who's snapped but still has easy access to guns can easily do those sorts of things that someone who's snapped but does not have easy access to guns cannot. You don't need to plan something like this out if you have the guns laying around already just because.

QUOTE (PlaySumFnJurny @ Dec 14, 2012 -> 02:56 PM) Reports are this guy used a Sig and a Glock. Those are automatic weapons, if not assualt weapons, are they not? Unless they were illegally modified (and the Glock couldn't have been AFAIK but what I know about guns isn't that much!), they were not automatic weapons. I highly doubt they were anyway, and an unskilled shooter would be better off with a semi-automatic, anyway. fully auto: pull the trigger, fires until its empty semi-auto: pull the trigger, fires one round and automatically chambers the next. gotta pull again to fire another bullet. non-auto: single-load guns (breach-load shotgun), lever-action repeaters, basically any gun where you have to do something to load another round.

QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Dec 14, 2012 -> 02:52 PM) IIRC the vast majority of prohibition alcohol was smuggled in, not made in bathtubs. The same would happen with guns. Ok so fine, maybe you make a dent on the random killings (which are still rare and random) but you're not stopping these major tragedies. How can you say that with any sort of certainty? You have no idea if this guy just snapped today, grabbed his legally owned guns, and went shooting.

QUOTE (PlaySumFnJurny @ Dec 14, 2012 -> 02:52 PM) Sportsmen want to have rifles and shotguns to hunt? Fine; I have no problem with that. Folks want to keep a pistol in the nightstand by the bed to ward off rapists and intruders? I don't have much of a problem with that either. But a society that allows psychos easy access to automatic weapons with extended magazines, the sole purpose of which is to kill lots of people fast, is horribly broken and needs to be fixed. Why that remains controversial to anyone is beyond me. I don't know what the ultimate solution is, but reinstatement of the assault weapons ban would be a good start. We don't. The NFA of the 30's and the later act in the 80's severely restricts ownership of automatic weapons. Only two legally owned ones have been used in crimes since the 30's, and even illegally owned ones are used very rarely. It's a solid point in favor of the possibilities of restrictions, imo.

QUOTE (Y2HH @ Dec 14, 2012 -> 02:50 PM) You make a solid point...while no, the market isn't the same...the fact is the market exists. Prohibition actually did repress alcohol consumption (didn't know, had to google) to about 70% once it steadied out: http://www.nber.org/papers/w3675.pdf

QUOTE (Wanne @ Dec 14, 2012 -> 02:48 PM) Anybody stop and wonder how these things are suddenly cropping up so commonly? Wisconsin, Colorado, recently Oregon, among other places...and while shocking have pretty much been met with no complete outrage for strict gun control after the first week or so. So the level or carnage had to be amped up and hit home...children at a school. Look...I'm as outraged by this as anybody...it's horrible beyond comprehension...but I'm sure this will cause the outrage that will finally get SOMEONE'S AGENDA of disarming law-abiding American citizens rolling. Meanwhile...criminals and crazies will still have guns. Don't blame the NRA or all the other law abiding gun owning citizens. This is absolutely horrific... So yes...as horrific as all of this is...it's children for god sakes! It does stir my conspiracy theorist mind. It's just becomes way too commonplace. Some loner with a screw loose is ALWAYS the story. Waiting for this story to unfold...but I suspect this person(s) storyline is much along the same line as the kid in Colorado or anyplace else. I do think there are other forces in place here that are trying to propel the complete gun control agenda...and this was the final act. Flame away...but I trust our government/CIA covert crap and their agendas as much as I trust my worst enemy. You're just going to eliminate the guns that are out there right now?!?...good luck with that. People that don't comply?...I guess that's what the FEMA camps are for. If you want to ban the sale of them now...go ahead...but trying to confiscate will be a joke and a nightmare. But the government's agenda of disarming the American public is being put into high gear now given this event. Remember when you said the same sort of crap after the Aurora, CO shootings, about how it was to swing votes for some UN resolution? Remember how wrong that was?

QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Dec 14, 2012 -> 02:47 PM) And that's all fine and good and I agree. Let's have that discussion. But we all know guns will never be outright banned in this country because our entire history revolves around personal freedoms and the barrier between us and our government. We're not Japan or the UK. We don't tolerate nearly as much government oversight, even if we could get an extra 1-5% increase in our safety. So the real question is, since we will never get a full ban, would any reasonable restriction actually stop a tragedy like today? IMO, not likely, and not enough to start imposing unreasonable demands on the 99.9% of law abiding gun owners. up until today, this guy was (likely) a law-abiding gun owner. that's exactly the problem with the framing on any gun conversation.

QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Dec 14, 2012 -> 02:41 PM) Yep, and if we made alcohol illegal all the alcohol makers would shore up and then no one would have the ability to drink! You all have established the need for guns for criminals. Why do you not think there'd be a similar demand in a black market that people would be willing to spend top dollar for? Drugs, of which alcohol is one, do not represent the same type of demand as guns do. It isn't even close to comparable. But "people willing to spend top dollar" for guns means that people have to spend top dollar and that when someone with schizophrenia goes off of their medication, there's not guns laying around all over the place for them to pick up and start shooting. edit: I can make bathtub gin or beer or wine on my own pretty easily. my great-grandparents built a home in Kankakee to do exactly that! fermenting fruit or grain isn't that difficult. owning a machine shop and building guns is considerably more complex.