iamshack

Well, it was a nice couple that came to see the bike. And they didn't kill me or steal the bike. But they didn't buy it yet either. Although they did seem very interested and wanted a night to sleep on it. It was the right size, so that is good. Hopefully I will have a sale done tomorrow.

QUOTE (GoodAsGould @ Jan 25, 2011 -> 06:24 PM) I wouldnt give anyone my house address, find somewhere public to meet. Well, I live in a big condo building, so I'm not too worried about that. But yeah, I certainly am not letting them in the building. I am meeting them next door in a parking lot. I'm just concerned it will be two people and they will steal it somehow. But I am probably just being paranoid.

I have someone coming to look at my Trek bike that I listed on Craigslist for $1,500. It's a really nice bike, but I just don't get enough use out of it to justify having it hanging on my wall collecting dust. But I am a bit nervous about having someone I have never met come look at it. There are just a lot of shady people on Craigslist these days. If I don't ever post again after 6 pm pacific time, you guys know I was killed by a craigslist person.

QUOTE (ptatc @ Jan 25, 2011 -> 04:59 PM) to be fair Prior did not have a shoulder reconstruction. He had a procedure to tighten it up and clean up a few things. However the point is valid. Would the training staff have had braces on hand to try and brace Cutler's knee so he could try and gain some stability with it? I know they would not have had a fitted brace necessarily, but is that the sort of thing the medical team would have on hand? Does it seem odd to you that they didn't have him in some kind of brace while he was on the sidelines?

How good is Texas' offense going to get? My goodness.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Jan 25, 2011 -> 02:49 PM) I know you've argued your position, I just haven't seen any support for it. To have a good theory, your idea needs to be consistent with what reliable evidence is known, and it needs to explain that evidence. You also need to have good reason for dismissing any evidence that goes against your idea. All you've given so far is personal incredulity, and that's not really support for an argument. Honestly SS, we've given all kinds of evidence. You've just chosen to ignore every piece that doesn't jive with your theory. Give me a break, we're both explaining away the points that contradict our position, and relying on the ones that back it up. You are also unwilling to admit that the source of all your news is basically coming from the organization that has everything to lose if anything to the contrary is being reported.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jan 25, 2011 -> 04:20 PM) Tom Brady was a miracle worker at that point. He'd taken over for Drew Bledsoe and was marching his team on into the playoffs when no one thought he had anything. Tom Brady was already one of the NFL's biggest stories at that point. And that's Tom Brady. And I said yesterday that Peyton Manning has the same s***ty look on his face as Jay when things aren't going well. He also likes to question his team's coaching decisions. My argument has never been that Jay Cutler is a wuss. My argument has been that Jay Cutler has a serious attitude problem, and that I wouldn't put it past him to bow out of that game because he was pouting and feeling sorry for himself. Do I think Jay Cutler is tougher than Tom Brady? Yes. He's also not the quarterback that Tom Brady is. He's not the quarterback that Peyton Manning is. He's not the quarterback that Drew Brees is. He's not the quarterback that Phillip Rivers is. Each of these guys are their own men, and each brings certain things to the table. One of Jay's positives has been that he takes a beating and keeps on getting up. But on Sunday, I think he let his attitude get the best of him, and it's pretty clear that a lot of other people came to the same conclusion. I was disappointed in him on Sunday.

QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Jan 25, 2011 -> 03:44 PM) So you think he was hurt and believe it was a valid reason to sit out? But just question how much he was helping Hanie? Is that kind of your basis Shack? Just want to make sure I follow. I can understand the above. I don't know if he was there for Hanie 100% of the time. I think he was legitimately injured. I think Jay has a tendency to pout and feel sorry for himself when things aren't going his way. I think he tends to lose focus, he tends to become mentally weak. I think when he was struggling, and he was injured, he may not have communicated to the coaching and training staff very well about the injury. I think he was probably feeling sorry for himself and said the knee hurt and that he wasn't sure he could continue. He tried in the second half, in the first series, and it didn't work, and so he just said the hell with it. I think had he been playing well, had the game been going better, he would have found the strength and the ability to continue to play. I think he would have at least tried to make it work more. After he came out of the game I think he continued feeling sorry for himself. I don't think he intentionally tried not to help Hanie or Collins. I think he just didn't worry about anyone other than himself at the time. I think when Hanie approached him for help, he was happy to give it to him. I just think most of the rest of the time he was too upset with his own plight to really think about what he should have been doing. After the game the players defended him, and I don't know why anyone would expect anything different. As far as they knew, the guy was injured. No one really even knew the extent of the injury then. Sunday night and Monday morning, I feel pretty confident that the Bears' brass coordinated with one another to determine the best way to handle the situation with the press. I think it was decided that the injury would be reported, that the coaching staff would shoulder as much of the blame as possible, and that all parts of the organization would fire back and defend their franchise quarterback. It was absolutely critical that Jay be painted in the best light possible if he would have any future in Chicago, because if it was acknowledged that he came out of the NFC Championship game, against the Packers, for any reason than that he could no longer play, he would have an extremely difficult time here. I believe the reporters are going with what the organization is saying, and trying to shed light on when Jay did talk to Hanie or others. I'm sure they feel sympathy for him.

QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Jan 25, 2011 -> 03:41 PM) Respect? To come up with a conspiracy theory, which they are entitled to? First of all, maybe he is recognizing how we have refused to insult others or call them names while we have constantly been called "meatheads," among many other things. Secondly, a conspiracy theory is just your way of making this sound far-fethched. There is a reason that the Fox commentators, players from around the league, and millions of fans immediately thought he quit on his team. Because his behavior up to this point doesn't exactly make that such a huge leap. Now you guys can defend him and the Bears all you want, and I respect that. Doesn't mean I have to agree with you.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jan 25, 2011 -> 03:42 PM) Would you continue to respect a QB who gave up on your team and faked an injury because he was losing at halftime? Not one person has said he faked an injury. I'm not sure how many times this has to be pointed out.

QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Jan 25, 2011 -> 03:38 PM) We are just throwing out facts that support our notion. What you suggest involves every player on a team defending a player. That just doesn't happen. Regardless of who that player is and when the player is someone that some posters on here have suggested is not liked in the clubhouse (I personally don't believe that and think by and large he's at the a minimum respected) than it makes me believe even less that it would be possible for everyone to cover it up. Well, I was reacting to your "Game, set, match. Well played!" post.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Jan 25, 2011 -> 03:36 PM) I'm just asking for any evidence. All you've got is speculation. Yeah, the Bears are usually evasive and give little to no information. I wouldn't expect team management/coaching to do anything but protect their QB right now. But that doesn't explain the reaction by the players. It doesn't support your claims that he was moping and not doing anything almost the entire second half (partially because there are reports and video of him doing things in the second half). It doesn't explain that he was actually injured in a way that impacts a QB's performance. It's my intention to try to figure out what evidence you're basing your opinion on. And that's most likely all I will ever have, SS. Speculation. But all sorts of things have happened in the sports world and in other well-documented events, that all we can do is speculate about. There is no proof. Why am I not allowed to have this opinion? Why is everyone so hell bent on making me agree with them? Sorry, I see all kinds of reasons for the Bears to take the stance they are taking and it doesn't add-up to me. Edit: And come on, SS...as if I haven't argued my position ad nauseum.

QUOTE (IlliniKrush @ Jan 25, 2011 -> 02:34 PM) The burden of proof IS on you because you are the one with the HUGE conspiracy theory. Everyone is lying, including doctors and MRI results. You think he quit, that's the bottom line. Then the MRI came out, and the media stories and player interviews, and you stuck with it. Props to you. No, it's not. I am not trying to convince anyone. I have my own opinion of things, and it differs from yours. Get over it.

QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Jan 25, 2011 -> 02:31 PM) Regardless. He was an unliked player that got chewed out and the Bears teammates didn't try to protect him or cover anything up. So because that is how things happened with Cedric Benson, it must be how things would happen in this instance? I recognize the point that is being made, but this isn't some huge revelation that points out anything other than Cedric Benson did not mean to the Bears what Jay Cutler means to the Bears.

QUOTE (IlliniKrush @ Jan 25, 2011 -> 02:25 PM) And reporters who aren't part of the organization. And and MRI. You're right, I shouldn't believe players. No one has ever called out a teammate in any sport. I believe facts, and you believe the make up world of what you want to believe. It is what it is. Look, I've allowed these passive-aggresive insults to float for a while now because I don't want to fire back and have happen exactly what ss2k was afraid would happen. But honestly, I'm getting tired of them.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Jan 25, 2011 -> 02:23 PM) How long did it take for it to leak that Benson pulled himself in the SB? How many players were adamantly defending him after the game? Are you going to compare Cedric Benson's importance to the Bears and Bears fans as that of Jay Cutler? Not even close.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Jan 25, 2011 -> 02:21 PM) Here's the problem: you don't know this. You don't know that they had him on film, almost the entire half, doing nothing. That's just a blind assertion by you. What you know is that for about a total of a minute in the second half (however long they had Jay on camera), he wasn't always sitting with Hanie or going over plays. But sometimes he was talking to Hanie, cheering him on, in those brief snippets we do have. So it kinda blows your whole theory. As far as it being a giant conspiracy, even after the official "Grade II MCL" report came out, you were still questioning the severity of the injury, even though we knew exactly how severe it was, by definition of "Grade II MCL Sprain". You still ask "why was he walking around without braces and ice?" The only implication there that I can see is that you don't believe he really has a Grade II MCL Sprain. The reporters and some in the media (like B&B) have been saying that the Bears should have handled it differently and made the severity of Jay's injury clear as soon as possible to avert all this nonsense and to avoid tarnishing the reputation of their star QB. They're not advocating that the Bears should have lied about his injury, in fact they're doing just the opposite. They're chastising Lovie and Co. for playing their stupid mind games and letting this get out of hand. Seriously, you and Illini are just being incredibly ridiculous with your burden of proof. It's as if an organization has never misled anyone to protect itself or their players. It's as if players have never refused to throw their teammates under the bus. It's as if reporters have never looked the other way when they knew damn well what the organization was spinning was bs (umm, steroids, people?). I cannot prove to you that Jay did anything other than get injured and ruled out by his coaches and athletic trainers for the remainder of the second half. Nor was it ever my intention to. And yet, it is clearly your intention to try and prove to me everything happened as it has been reported by the Bears. Well I just don't believe their version of events at this time. I am sorry if that offends you. I am sorry if you can't accept that. But it's my opinion and my belief.

QUOTE (IlliniKrush @ Jan 25, 2011 -> 03:13 PM) Again, you are making stuff up and ignoring facts. Now, it's the players that are completely covering it up. They're all liars, and they were damn good at being angry about it, too. To a man. This is the biggest cover up in the history of sports, even though he came out with an injury, which is a fact. He went and played in the 2nd half despite the rec of doctors and trainers, and couldn't do it well enough. Then he didn't help, even though it's documented he did. This is awesome. And you keep believing everything the organization tells you. As if they had a choice to say anything else.

QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Jan 25, 2011 -> 02:06 PM) A lot of the shots happened when Hanie was on offense though. Obviously in those situations Cutler won't be there. There was one shot where CUtler was right next to Hanie on the bench chatting with him. How about the shot of Cutler smiling when Hanie successfully led a TD drive. You have this massive conspiracy. You say sideline reporters like him and have a relationship with him, most of the reporters don't like him, even guys in Chicago. They've grown to realize he is what he is, but they aren't buddy buddy with him. You might have one guy go out and say this is what happened, but for every reporter that was on the sideline to all say the same thing, well, I'd say that is REAL evidence. And Barkely, he just said he'd be there 24/7. Maybe Cutler wasn't there 24/7, but the reality is as long as he has that headset in and is listening to plays and when the situation calls for it he is around him, than that is fine. And from everyone's conversations that has been the case. And I don't buy for one second that players (if they had a problem with Jay) wouldn't publicly state he quit. If a player seriously has problems, his teammates will call him out for it. Well, I respect your opinion and I'm not asking you to buy anything. All I'm asking is that you do the same for me.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Jan 25, 2011 -> 01:57 PM) The media produces and presents the narratives they want. "Good Jay/Bad Jay" is one. As the broadcast was going on, "Jay is a quitter" developed. But, ironically, you're dismissing that as conspiracy while buying into a much bigger one--a cover up by the medical staff, coaches, all other players including Hanie, management, and various sideline reporters. I was waiting for this. I understand the media presents a game as "theater" and will often play up the drama, etc. But they had the guy on film, almost the entire half, doing nothing. I mean, it's not like this was just one point in time where this occurred. This was immediately after he came out. This was while Collins was in. This was while Hanie was in. This was while the Bears were coming back. This was several times when the Bears defense was in. Seriously, there is just tons and tons and tons of actual live video that was shot, photos that were shot. They just could not have tried to play that angle up (and yes, they certainly played that angle up) unless Jay was complying! And he did! For almost the entire second half! But I am to believe that this was done to fool the Packers into thinking he was going to come back? As for what I was arguing, I did not say there was a cover-up by the medical staff, ever. So stop trying to make that point. As for the rest of them, we have had several reporters now say that the Bears should have reacted to cover this all up much earlier than they did! That the Bears attempt to handle this thing was actually far too slow. Are we really so naive that we don't think players cover other players' asses? That coaches don't? And really, I am not asking anyone to believe what I believe. What you guys are doing is telling me that I can't believe it. That I can't debate it. Someone actually said the situation is not debatable.

QUOTE (IlliniKrush @ Jan 25, 2011 -> 01:49 PM) There's the issue. Problem is you didn't see most of it. None of us did. You weren't down there. Instead, you are disagreeing with reported facts, and calling it a cover up, which is what you hope happened, but have no proof. Ok, you're right man. I didn't see constant shots of the guy standing by himself sulking. Every time Jay stopped teaching Hanie how to dissect the Packers' defense, the producer yelled out "Go to camera 5!" because he wanted to catch Jay doing nothing again. There is a vast conspiracy by Fox Sports to make Jay appear as though he quit on the Bears. In fact, I bet that video they were showing was taken from a preseason game earlier this season when Jay was on the bench, and then they changed the background to make it appear as though he was on the bench milling around during the game Sunday!

QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Jan 25, 2011 -> 02:37 PM) Right now you are saying it is a giant cover-up by anyone on the sidelines who is reporting anything as well as by Bear coaches and players. I don't buy it. You can't keep that type of stuff quiet and there are reporters who would take that information and use it to make a name for themselves anyway. No, I am certainly not. Don't put words in my mouth. I'm saying Jay was standing on the sidelines for almost the entirety of the half by himself. This is backed up by photographs and video. There might have been one brief moment in time wherein he actually could be bothered enough to speak to Caleb Hanie. What do you expect Hanie to say, honestly? "No, the guy didn't want to help me, he was too pissed off that he played like garbage and had a knee injury." I mean who in their right mind would do that? Then you've got the sideline reporters who know Jay well, they work with him 180 days a year. They have become acquaintances with him and want to see him succeed and do well. Do you really think they are going to come out and say "Well, actually, those reports are incorrect. Jay maybe talked to Caleb for two minutes the entire half." Why would they do something like that? They probably would never get another interview from a Bears player again. They would be blackballed from getting anything of value by many players on the team. I'm not saying anyone is lying, just that it would take a LOT of cajones to contradict the organization's version of things. You guys are going to criticize me for asking questions, accusing me of saying this is a "giant cover-up," and yet you guys are making the EXACT same claim of the Fox production team, accusing them of some vast conspiracy to make Jay look like a quitter and a loser. Give me a break. I'm going to look at everything I saw and the entire picture of events and not just believe anything that comes out of the organization or the players' mouths. If you can't recognize that this is a huge PR issue right now, I just don't know if there is a reason to continue the debate.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jan 25, 2011 -> 02:31 PM) I'm not saying they lied...I'm saying that they probably lied? This cherry picking habit of yours has become most annoying. I'm trying to be as diplomatic about this as possible because some people obviously have become extremely offended that anyone would dare call into question the Bears' version of things. So you ignore the entire point of the post and just seek out any little semantic argument you can make, even though you know darn well what I was trying to say in that post.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jan 25, 2011 -> 01:17 PM) Joba's shoulder might never be the same. It was the flies, I tell you. The flies!

QUOTE (IlliniKrush @ Jan 25, 2011 -> 01:17 PM) I don't care what Barkley says, all he saw was the Fox 5 second clips. Which, mind you, a producer picks and chooses which clips to show. Don't think that had any play in it? You're kidding yourself if you don't think so. Sideline reporters, who are there the entire time within feet of these guys, said there was plenty of help, plenty of enthusiasm, etc. It's a fact, and it's not debatable. I recognize and appreciate your desire and your right to stick up for the guy as much as possible. That's perfectly fair. But it's a fact and it's not debatable? These guys are all human. The sideline reporters work with Cutler and the Bears on a daily basis for half of the year. They have a professional relationship, and many times, a friendly relationship as well. I'm certainly not accusing anyone of lying for Jay Cutler, nor am I suggesting things were fabricated out of thin air, but to throw Cutler under the bus by claiming that he was not helping Hanie, or was being stubborn about the situation, well, that would take a lot of balls. I think for the most part, everyone in the organization, and many of the people close to the organization, including reporters, are going to be very hesitant to rock the boat here. I think it's very debatable. And I am certainly not saying they lied, or that they fabricated things...but there are a lot of things going on in this situation that would lead one to decide it was in his or her best interests to go with the organization's version of things and leave it at that.