iamshack

QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Aug 10, 2009 -> 02:48 PM) Probably a small sample size there, as guys don't really run on those two (MB at least). And I am not saying AJ is fantastic or anything. Just that his low throw-out rate is not entirely his fault. The other thing to think about in terms of Mark and John is that when runners actually DO go against them, they often just guess first move. So for the guys that actually do guess correctly, that's a pretty outstanding jump that AJ is trying to throw them out from...

QUOTE (Pumpkin Escobar @ Aug 10, 2009 -> 02:06 PM) I don't get how the pressure is on KW. If Rios never hit waivers, we wouldn't have claimed him and we'd be in the same position we are in with 3 OF's contributing to our lineup. He did hit waivers and it's a nice opportunity to buy low on a good player but we by no means needed him or went balls after the guy. So why should any pressure be on KW? He blocked him from going to other contending AL teams, in particular the Tigers. So if we get him - great, that could be a huge deal. If not, we avoided him going anywhere that could hurt us in the playoff run and still have the same lineup that they were happy with a week ago. I fail to see why KW has any pressure. Rios is icing on the cake, he isn't the cake. I'm not arguing there is pressure on KW in terms of the grand scheme of things. I am claiming, in the vacuum of this particular showdown, the pressure is on KW. The reason is simple: Ricciardi already has a deal done on his end, if he wants it done. This isn't like a traditional deal where the party looking to acquire the player can simply back out and say "F You, I'm tired of this BS. Keep the player." Kenny has already agreed, in the technical sense, to take the player. Meanwhile, JP still has the issue of backing out. He can simply take his ball and go home. And who knows what his mandate is from ownership. Must he dump Rios no matter what? Or can he afford to try and move him again in the offseason? So now JP can just sit back and try to squeeze out of him what he can. The pressure is on Kenny to try and figure out just what price JP will deny, and what he will accept. We can speculate all we want about whether that price is nothing, or a few middling prospects, or something actually moderately significant. My guess is KW wants the player, is willing to give up some players, but no one that he has any significant plans in the organization for. And it is true that if KW doesn't get Rios, he is in no different position than he was prior to the claim. However, he has lost an opportunity to acquire a player that could significantly improve the future of his club. Is it worth losing that player over a few middling prospects? I sure hope not. But that is the pressure he is feeling.

QUOTE (Pumpkin Escobar @ Aug 10, 2009 -> 12:30 PM) If they don't need to shed payroll then I don't think the deal gets done because it is not an necessity for either team and I dont see us taking onthat contract while also giving up more of our farm (the price JP would want). IF they do need to then I don't see how the pressure is on KW to make the deal? The pressure is certainly on KW, if there is pressure in this situation at all. Ricciardi most likely understands the situation. He most likely understands he is not going to get a "haul" in this deal. However, he does know that the claiming team is on the hook, and all he has to do is say the word and Rios is off his payroll. Certainly he can try and get a few prospects to help the Jays down the line - perhaps a few "change of scenery guys," or maybe a guy with some potential down in single A - but the main objective of ridding themselves of Rios has been achieved. He can move that salary, every last penny of it, just by saying a word. Kenny is the one who has to try and figure out just how desperate Ricciardi is. He has to wonder, "is this guy desperate enough that he will just dump him?" Or "Does he really need to get something back for him to save face?" "Can he go into the offseason with this guy and deal him then?" Honestly, we have no idea, and while KW may have a better idea by now, my guess is he is trying to call Ricciardi's bluff. I think that is what Phillips is saying when he says the pressure is on KW and not Ricciardi.

I honestly can't really disagree at all. However, you don't pitch this well this long into a season unless you have some confidence and have avoided making those bad pitches. Who knows the kind of season he might be having this year were he still on our team. I just hope that Jake shows me something different here than Javy did.

QUOTE (Kenny Hates Prospects @ Aug 9, 2009 -> 10:58 PM) Javy has figured it out this year. Before that he figured it out in 2007. Before that he figured it out in Montreal. Javy is Javy. He'll suck ass next year and if the Braves make the playoffs he'll keep them from winning games. I also don't see why concerns with Jake would be similar. Javy pitched in the NL too and got lit up there as well by doing the same s*** we saw when he was here. Jake has yet to prove he's a mental midget on the mound, and really the only concern I see that they both share is their ability to blow up in the playoffs. Here's something to look at: Javy's numbers vs. career opponents (scroll down) Peavy's numbers vs. career opponents (scroll down) Javy also pitched in Montreal for quite a while and both have spent most of their days in the NL. Look at how much better Peavy's numbers are. Peavy for example is 7-4 with a 2.31 ERA, .216 BAA, .287 OBPA, .340 SLGA against the Astros in his career and they play in a hitters' dream and have always had some dangerous lineups. Off Javy OTOH they are hitting .280 with a .786 OPS. Just scroll down and look at the ERA and BAA against especially. Not all of that accounts for Petco. Peavy is just a much better pitcher, which is why he won a Cy Young and why he's considered an ace while Javy is just another career underachiever. Say whatever you want about the guy, there is no taking away 3 or 4 seasons he has put up, including this one, which is one of the best by anyone in the National League this year.

QUOTE (Thunderbolt @ Aug 9, 2009 -> 10:56 PM) No one failed Javy. He dominated with us, he just crapped the bed when it mattered No, not that we failed Javy, that we failed WITH Javy.

I don't think there is any doubt that we failed with Javy. I have a feeling we did improve his mental makeup a bit, and perhaps the Braves were able to turn the corner with him on his mechanics. There is no denying that he has been an absolute horse this year, experience a renaissance of sorts. Granted he is pitching in a pitcher's park, in a weaker league. But anyone who wants to rip on Javy needs to have the same concerns with Jake Peavy. Their situations are quite similar.

Fine by me.

Peter Gammons just stated he would not be surprised if Rios were to be traded for nothing. He did not claim to know if the White Sox won the waiver claim - just that Buster Olney and several websites believe it to be the White Sox.

QUOTE (BigSqwert @ Aug 9, 2009 -> 06:06 PM) Could someone please post Jose's splits when AJ and Castro are catching him? You're an ass...

QUOTE (GreatScott82 @ Aug 9, 2009 -> 05:59 PM) With the 3rd hopefully being Figgins to round off our lineup. Not to burst anyone's bubble, because many have shared similar sentiments. But I highly doubt that Figgins would be in the picture should this deal for Rios happen.

Well that will be a fine.

QUOTE (Kalapse @ Aug 9, 2009 -> 04:06 PM) Just ignoring all statistical evidence since I get why some would be hesitant to treat it as gospel, do people honestly believe it's possible for probably the slowest outfielder in the game to be even average defensively? A good read can only do so much, you have to have some kind of closing speed to get to balls. Just try watching someone like Alex Rios one time and you'll realize what we're missing out on, he's easily getting to balls that Dye has no chance on. I don't actively seek out defensive metrics, but I generally believe them when they are presented to me. It's obvious, just by watching Dye, that he is slow afoot, clumsy because of his size, and becoming more and more inaccurate with his arm due to deteriorating mechanics. He does salvage complete embarrassment sometimes due to a generally solid athleticism on balls he can get to. However, it is time for him to become a full-time offensive ballplayer. The eyes will tell you that, and the stats will confirm it.

QUOTE (MurcieOne @ Aug 9, 2009 -> 02:03 PM) why does god hate me? He doesn't hate you...he just loves Indians' fans more this weekend...

QUOTE (rockren @ Aug 9, 2009 -> 01:53 PM) Tigers just took the lead in the bottom of the 8th- 7-6, runners on the corner w/ 1 down. Honestly, why does it matter who wins that game? All three teams will be hanging around in the end.

QUOTE (Palehosefan @ Aug 9, 2009 -> 01:52 PM) He waddled down the line, does that count? I am really frustrated with him through this slump. I suppose I need to keep the faith a bit better.

It's about time for JD's fat ass to do something here.

Is this the Sox' game thread, or the Tigers/Twins? I was only kidding....

QUOTE (Kalapse @ Aug 9, 2009 -> 01:51 PM) Or it's because Jim Thome is under appreciated. Even when he was at his best in '06 people were hating on Thome, this is undeniable. I think part of it is because much of our fanbase is still in the stone age in regards to some of the more modern statistics/metrics. Many of our fans do not pay too much attention to OBP, Slugging, and by extension, OPS. While they understand Thome is a run producer, they are frustrated by how often he strikes out and how often he hits into the shift. He's not a flashy or colorful character either. Just goes about his business quietly and posts 35/100 every year with a .900 OPS.

QUOTE (ChiSox_Sonix @ Aug 9, 2009 -> 01:18 PM) So I don't have to read through 14 pages, could someone please summarize this situation for me? Like what are the odds of this actually happening? Any speculation on what we'd have to give up? What are his contract details? He's a nice player. Not a star but plays good defense, has some pop, decent average, and can steal bases. He could definitely be the CF next year. No one really knows the odds of it happening. We don't even know for sure that the White Sox are the team that won the claim. However, they are the team believed to have won the claim by "baseball sources." In terms of who the Sox would have to give up, that is unknown. Presumably very little or nothing. His contract details are as follows: Alex Rios of 7 years/$69.835M (2008-14), plus 2015 club option 7 years/$69.835M (2008-14), plus 2015 club option signed extension with Toronto 4/4/08, re-working 2008 deal signed 2/5/08 ($3.5M signing bonus remains, 2008 salary reduced from $1.335M to $0.735M) 08:$0.735M, 09:$5.9M, 10:$9.7M, 11:$12M, 12:$12M, 13:$12.5M, 14:$12.5M, 15:$13.5M club option ($1M buyout) full no-trade clause, 2009-10 limited no-trade clause, 2011 - end of deal (may block trades to 6 clubs) 1 year/$4.835M (2008) re-signed 2/5/08 (avoided arbitration, $5.65M-$4.535M) $3.5M signing bonus, 08:$1.335M award bonus: $15,000 for All Star team 1 year/$2.535M (2007) re-signed 2/07 (avoided arbitration, $3.1M-$2M) 1 year/$0.354M (2006) 1 year/$0.331M (2005), re-signed 3/05 drafted 1999 (1-19) $0.845M signing bonus agent: Paul Kinzer ML service: 4.130

QUOTE (Thunderbolt @ Aug 9, 2009 -> 01:13 PM) Dumping Rolen and Rios would be a coup for the Jays. And Riccardi realizes that. The X-Factor is Riccardi's ego. His best move is to dump Riccardi off on us, but if he demands players, the sitiuation might meet a head. Hah, you did it again. I agree with what you are trying to say though.

Enough with the name-calling. Clean it up, or the thread's getting closed.

QUOTE (Thunderbolt @ Aug 9, 2009 -> 10:57 AM) Contreras dominated the Indians a couple of weeks back. He needs to throw strikes. No more nibbling around the plate, unless the Count (Hey-oh!) dictates it. Hah, nice.

QUOTE (Kalapse @ Aug 9, 2009 -> 11:15 AM) I do agree with you, don't get me wrong. Low to mid 20's guaranteed is definitely doable. Though the fact that Beckham is still 6 years away from free agency after this year does muck things up a bit, ideally it would be a 9 year deal that pays him a little over $2M the first 3 years ('10-'12) to account for pre-arb then around $13M over the next 3 to account for arbitration and then like Longoria $30M or so to buyout his first 3 years of free agency with one of those seasons being guaranteed and the other 2 being club option years that need to be exercised simultaneously. A decent signing bonus somewhere around $2.3M could be in order. This is exactly the reason I was hoping you would respond to this thread. It's fairly clear that Gordon is exceptional in terms of both physical talent as well as mental/emotional makeup. The kid has rocketed through our minor league system, experiencing major league pitching for the first time and mashing it, and learning a new position on the fly. One of the keys to me has been how he has handled his struggles in the field. The kid has made plenty of errors trying to learn the speed and angles over at third, and yet, he doesn't let it get him down. He doesn't take it to the plate with him. He has also been moved up in the order. He just takes absolutely everything we throw at him in stride. I'm all in favor of locking Gordon up long term. He has the "it" factor. Sign him up and get an insurance policy against catastrophic injury, and I think we take a lot of future stress out of our equation.

Yeah, I understand that. I'm not trying to so much as duplicate Longoria's contract, but rather the concept of it. I agree, however, I think at least one of those 8-figure years needs to be an option year. I think I would approach Beckham with the same concept of the Longoria deal, but perhaps more guaranteed. 6 year $22 million with 2 club option years in the 8 figures ($10 and $12 million), taking out that first club option that offers the $7 million or whatever. So all in all, the contract would be 6/$22 with the potential to become 8/$44 should the club option years be exercised.