Jenksismyhero

QUOTE (illinilaw08 @ Aug 19, 2014 -> 04:37 PM) He might very well have been fleeing when he was shot AT. It's relevant if the first shot that was fired is while he's fleeing, but he isn't hit until he has turned around... But that's still not getting us anywhere. We still need to find out if Brown was running back towards Wilson.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Aug 19, 2014 -> 04:32 PM) Tunnel vision, adrenaline, poor decision making. Who knows if Wilson has ever had to fire his service weapon before? He could have panicked. On the other hand, if you take Wilson's side of the story, Brown's actions don't make much sense. Why would he stop, taunt, and then charge someone who had already fired at him once (from inside the car, whether it was intentional or accidental)? Why are you putting victim in scare quotes? If we give the most charitable interpretation to Brown's side, he was 100% a victim. And no, the outcome when you assault someone with a gun, especially a police officer, shouldn't be instant death. That's not the legal standard, and it shouldn't be the moral one either. Here's a decent breakdown of why the three witnesses' versions are a little questionable: http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/20.../hands-up-story And yes, it might make sense if he's a hot-headed moron, which he appears to be. He could have known the gun going off was accidental. And Brown also knew that instead of firing after him immediately when he ran away, Wilson was yelling at him to freeze. When you endanger the life of anyone, that person has the right to defend themselves. If you're that stupid that you want to assault someone with a gun, you need to be prepared to die as a result of a defending act. Yes, if Brown really ran away and was 35 feet away and was shot from that distance, then ok, that's not right and even though Brown is a moron, he's clearly outside of that zone of danger. But if he's facing Wilson and coming towards him for a second time, he's not a "victim" in any sense of the word. He got what was coming to him.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Aug 19, 2014 -> 04:28 PM) Link? Do we know that as a FACT now? Have the police reported this in one of their briefings or it's just a rumor flying around the internet now? Police said he suffered injuries to the face. Several blogs/newsites are running that it's an orbital fracture, but no major news source has backed it up yet. http://www.inquisitr.com/1421156/ferguson-...-michael-brown/

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Aug 19, 2014 -> 04:23 PM) These are the same witnesses who said the officer fired at Brown as he was running away. They initially believed he had been hit in the back. Being wrong about whether or not he was actually hit from behind doesn't really call the whole situation into question. That's pretty messed up. You should absolutely care if he ran away and if the officer fired at him while he was fleeing or if he put his hands up. Attacking a cop isn't carte blanche for the cop to summarily execute you for assault. But we know he wasn't "fleeing" when he was shot, at least based on internet-opinionreview of the forensics. He's at least facing the cop. And again, I find it INCREDIBLY hard to believe a 28 year old cop who appears to have been good at his job was a cold-blooded murderer willing to shoot and kill a person from 35 feet away. A person who was allegedly giving himself up. None of that makes any sense given Brown's earlier actions. And while you don't get a free pass to kill someone in that situation, i'm also not very sympathetic to the "victim." When you attack someone with a gun, one common sense outcome is that you'll be killed in defense.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Aug 19, 2014 -> 04:16 PM) Sure, but think of it as a form of victim-blaming. You could change a few words and it could be advice to just take any criminal action short of death passively because you might just anger the person into harming you even more otherwise. It's not that it's necessarily wise to criticize an officer, it's just that there's zero reason to accept that there's a decent number of officers who would react to being questioned or called names by beating, tasering or shooting someone. Think about that; he's trying to at least partially justify physical violence in response to insulting a cop. Why should any of us find that acceptable? Ok, to that point I agree. That's along the lines of Stephen A. Smith telling women to stop provoking men into hitting them. But you and I both know there are people who engage cops in a really stupid way and all it does is cause more problems than is necessary. Be polite, follow instructions, and generally it's not going to be an issue. Be combative, defensive, stand your ground and ignore instructions, and you are going to force their hand. And sometimes a response is going to be justified depending on what you're doing. Lol, get back to me when you have a toddler that doesn't listen to anything you say (and i'm sure older parents will say a teenager).

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Aug 19, 2014 -> 04:08 PM) There was Piaget Crenshaw, who saw the shooting and then got her phone to record the aftermath. I haven't seen anything indicating that she did not see the shooting, and I can't find anything on google. There was also Tiffany Mitchell, who told a story very similar to Crenshaw's version of events. Are these the same witnesses that said he was shot in the back as he was running away? Which doesn't seem likely now? He attacked a cop. He caused facial fractures. He's not some random victim of a cold-blooded killer cop. I don't care if he ran away, he's not the "victim" that he's being portrayed as.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Aug 19, 2014 -> 03:59 PM) This assumes that you can have faith in internal affairs audits or judicial proceedings in these sorts of cases. Didn't bmags post something about there never being a single officer-involved shooting ruled unjustified in Wisconsin, ever? Who cares about internal audits, i'm talking civil cases. There are a s*** ton of those and they are successful. Hell, I owe my job to my firm obtaining a 2.5 million dollar verdict in a police brutality case. And it wasn't even that strong of a case. Oh but you want to fire the incompetent cop too. Well, as i'm sure you're aware, they're fully unionized and those police unions are powerful sons of b****es, so good luck with that. While those types of cops out there exist, and they're mostly control freaks and assholes, you still bite your tongue and follow their instructions. And you do that because you know that it's just going to be a bigger pain in the ass if you speak up. My wife and I just had this happen to us over parking (standing) in a handicap spot for literally 5 seconds. I wanted to scream at the cop and get his badge number and raise hell for being an asshole about the whole thing. But ya know what, I didn't. And after 3 minutes he gave us a warning and let us go. And while I was pissed, it was done and over with and life moved on. Had I been an ass about it, it would have been 100 times worse i'm sure. So like telling your parents or your boss what's what, you close your mouth, you deal with it, and everyone moves on. That's how most civilized people operate. When you scream at cops and yell at cops and disobey orders, like parents or bosses, they get pissed and they'll lash out in response.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Aug 19, 2014 -> 03:38 PM) That is false. At least two other independent witnesses said the same thing. Why do you feel that the shooting was completely justified at this point? And as we discussed one of those witnesses admitted that she left to go get her phone so she really didn't see what happened. Who's the second? I'm only aware of that woman and the partner. The stories are starting to mix together. I'm not 100% confident, but i'm more confident given the new reports of "dozens" of witnesses who back up the officers claim that Brown ran towards him. Add the scuffle beforehand, and even if the shooting wasn't 100% justified and the officer had other potential alternatives (a dubious claim given the distance and timing involved, if true), it's not a "victimless crime" here. Brown was a criminal who attacked a cop and unfortunately died for being a moron. I don't pity those types of people.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Aug 19, 2014 -> 03:32 PM) http://gawker.com/cop-pens-touching-op-ed-...wont-1623985263 This mindset is absolutely part of the problem, that police are never to be questioned and always to be obeyed. And yet doing that would stop about 90% of the problems with cops. As I said before, if you feel wronged, be civilized and use the court system. Don't exacerbate the problem and get yourself in a worse mess than is necessary. Also, why are cops so much different than other authority figures in life? Parents, bosses, etc. You bite your tongue with them, why are cops any different?

QUOTE (illinilaw08 @ Aug 19, 2014 -> 03:18 PM) It might still be a legitimate act to move on. And regardless of the facts surrounding Brown (and nothing that has come out is dispositive on either side yet - both sides are happily cherry picking experts and facts at this point), two points stand out to me. 1) The heavy handed police response; 2) The early acts to demonize Brown. Here's a picture of him flashing what might be a gang sign! Hey, he was in a robbery early (even though the robbery wasn't directly linked to the shooting)! Regardless of whether the shooting ultimately was justified or not, those two points are worthy of protest (peaceful protest - I think some people have been too quick to lump protestors and looters in the same breath). And the media was largely responsible for reporting the early stuff on #1. The pictures of police in full camo with guns drawn on a kid with arms in the air carrying a backpack. The early direct coverage of the protests. There's a difference between the news (cameras on the ground reporting what happened on night __ of protesting) and editorializing - largely the purview of talking heads. It's really not though. You've got a big kid that both witnesses and the cops agree attacked the cop in question. That alone makes him the least sympathetic victim possible. But on top of that, the big rallying cry was an unconfirmed - and at this point I think completely discredited - "my hands are up, don't shoot!" situation. That never happened. The only evidence of that was a witness statement coming from Brown's partner in crime. The police response I completely get. Not all of it, but some of it. But again, I don't think that's why the people are protesting. They feel like one of their people were wronged, as others have in the past, and they're tired of it. The problem is Brown wasn't an innocent victim here based on everything we've heard/read so far.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Aug 19, 2014 -> 02:58 PM) I read through the first six pages and there wasn't anything like that. There was strong criticism of the actions of the police, but that criticism was related to the after-shooting actions, not the shooting itself. You're right, page 3 is when I cited that moronic "America isn't for black people" post, and around 10 we started talking about the logistics of what happened. Start from there.

QUOTE (RockRaines @ Aug 19, 2014 -> 02:55 PM) They are also reporting that the police are using unjust force when the media wont listen to them for their own safety. When the police ask you 25 times to move back or to go to another location because there is violence, you refusing and then inhaling tear gas is your own fault. When the narrative changes so much in a few days, you know this is the typical "first person to report a story" nature of today instead of actually waiting for the facts. Right, and remember it's media members complaining about the mistreatment of media members. No bias there.

QUOTE (illinilaw08 @ Aug 19, 2014 -> 01:54 PM) My two cents... There's a distinction between "media" - talking heads, whatever CNN was doing in the wake of the Boston bombings and the Malaysian flight disappearance... and journalists. Journalists captured the initial, extraordinarily heavy handed response to protestors in Ferguson. The picture that SS likes to post is powerful evidence of that. The early response that involved disassembling cameras, shooting tear gas at the Al-Jazeera truck, or being very quick to arrest. To me, there are two bad acts that have been proven without a doubt. First, the early police response was terribly heavy handed and exacerbated the future protests. The second point is that opportunists (whatever you want to call them) took advantage of the unrest to harm the community (looting, etc.). Both are important points; both should be focused on and condemned. On the bold, however, the anger and frustration probably had more to do with the historical treatment of poor, black communities. The early information allowed that frustration to boil over... which is quite understandable... I don't disagree, but when you use an event to propel a national conversation on a long-term problem (or perceived problem), it would be helpful to have a legitimate event to stand on. As always, the media - and by that i'm mostly referring to talking heads, but journalists looking to make news are just as guilty of this - WANTS that to be the story because it'll drive ratings. Tragedy AND controversy? Sign us up! This same crap happened with Trayvon Martin and the Duke Lacrosse scandal. The initial reaction is propelled due to speculation and incomplete information. Also, it's been over a week and people are still protesting. Why? For what? Because a dead guy is on the street after being killed by a cop? Or because the police overstepped and came out meeting the protests a little too hard? It's mostly still #1.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Aug 19, 2014 -> 01:47 PM) Well, it's been multiple witnesses that said that, plus leaving his body laying in the street for four hours, plus the police immediately circling the wagons that drove the initial events. The news media was barely covering the story the first weekend, so it doesn't seem correct to say that the reaction was driven by the media. edit: do people really need disclaimers that "a witness says" isn't meant to be a 100% accurate and complete report of the events? Are you serious? Go read the first 5-10 pages of this thread. It was a constant argument about how s***ty police are and how this guy murdered a wonderful, saint of a human being in cold blood. I'm sure there were plenty of unwritten disclaimers that those opinions were all pending confirmation of what actually happened, right?

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Aug 19, 2014 -> 01:25 PM) the police said days ago that Wilson suffered facial injuries in the struggle, I'm not sure what "the media" did wrong there? edit: the national media ignored this story for several days. there was anger and frustration in Ferguson well before it became a national news story. And the anger and frustration was based on unknown information. The people in the neighborhood saw "black kid shot dead by cop" and immediately concluded it was unjustified murder. The news media grabbed ahold of that narrative and ran with it. Never once have I read or heard anyone from the media say "that's just what one witness says, we don't actually know the full story yet."

QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Aug 19, 2014 -> 01:05 PM) Here is what I don't understand. How were there all these bad reports and then it has taken this long for this information to come out. Seems like a lot of bad information started the process, followed by good info. If this info comes out 10 days ago, we don't have this situation. Again, not saying it is easy and investigations have to be done, but seems like there should have been pretty strong statements coming from the government denying reports, etc. Easy: the media. They are 100% to blame. Show up, shove microphones in people's faces, get "statements," report them as fact, and then get the country in a frenzy. "No, we actually haven't seen it Tom, we're just reporting it."

Reports coming out now that the officer suffered some fractures to his eye socket during the fight with Brown.

QUOTE (IlliniKrush @ Aug 19, 2014 -> 10:57 AM) I haven't done it, but I've always heard you just negotiate the overall price, never on a monthly payment. Then figure out the financing later. That is correct. But once you figure out the price, they'll figure out the monthly payment, and then they'll try to lower it for you (how generous). They sell it like they're doing you a favor, but it's always for a longer term and a higher interest rate, thus you end up paying more for the car.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Aug 19, 2014 -> 10:37 AM) You still have the massive overreaction by the police to the ongoing protests. Yeah, that's true. Really that should be the "issue" that gets resolved out of this story.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Aug 19, 2014 -> 10:16 AM) I don't think we have an official incident report or debrief or anything. So far we have one of Wilson's friend relating the story Wilson supposedly told him, and it's not clear from that exactly where Wilson was. And we have "a dozen" witnesses that supposedly support Wilson's account that Brown came after him. I'll be interested to see what the FBI report says. You know that's going to be politically motivated. If Holder comes out and says "well guys, really, Brown was a moron and attacked a police officer and the officer had no choice but to use deadly force," that's not going to fair well for Obama. Also, it's sad, but yet again we've allowed the media "reporting" false information to drive the narrative here. The Redskins team last night walked out onto the field with their hands up "in support" of a criminal who potentially could have been attacking a police officer. Continuing that "stop, don't shoot!" claim that I think at this point has been discredited.

QUOTE (Steve9347 @ Aug 18, 2014 -> 10:24 PM) 14 Chevy Cruze with 15k miles for 14.5. I'm pleased. I even got up to walk out and suddenly they met my number.\ My wife and I have ridiculous credit scores. It's annoying that they fight you on everything. Yeah, idiots, I'm going to take 2.99% when the wife and I have 850 and 828 credit scores respectively. GMAFB. My favorite part is after settling on the terms, they come back at you with a lower monthly payment, but different financing terms, making it so that in the long run they make more money. Sadly, they do it because people aren't smart enough to do the math on their own and figure out they're getting hosed. And then car salesman wonder why everyone despises the car buying experience.

QUOTE (Buehrle>Wood @ Aug 19, 2014 -> 09:18 AM) Christine Byers @ChristineDByers Police sources tell me more than a dozen witnesses have corroborated cop's version of events in shooting #Ferguson Not possible. We already know what happened.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/b...ory.html#page=1 What's funny is that these people are too stupid to realize that by inciting and using violence as they have, they're actually doing more harm than good. They're going to turn the once sympathetic national audience against them. And more importantly, they're drowning out the people who are protesting peacefully and have the best chance of making a meaningful change in the community.

As to the apathy with which some people in this thread have towards criminals, this is more crap that just infuriates me: http://gawker.com/all-the-things-not-to-do...chil-1623421423 13 year old steals phone. Victim apprehends 13 year old until police arrive. Police arrive, arrest and charge 13 year old for being a little s***bag thief. Gawker's (bleading hearts') conclusion to this story? "If you are nonviolently mugged by a child, continue to let him run along with his friends. The world will be a better place." f***ed up society we live in right there.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Aug 18, 2014 -> 04:17 PM) It'd be nice if the police had some sort of incident report/debrief from Wilson dating back to last Saturday before any external information (witness statements) was known. I'm sure his report and his interviews were done immediately.