Jenksismyhero

ha, every major person at Illinois is denying that any decision has been made. What the hell happened?

QUOTE (pittshoganerkoff @ Mar 27, 2012 -> 12:37 PM) I like The River, but I haven't watched Alcatraz yet. I'm wondering the same thing about it. If I hear it's been cancelled, I won't bother. They're actually very similar, so if you like one you'll like the other. They both have convenient experts that know everything that's going on, the "mystery" is always solved by the end of the episode, and generally not too much has happened over the course of a season. I was pretty meh on both but continued to watch since there isn't much on these days.

And what kills me is that the one thing that you have to have in college sports is a recruiter, and by all accounts, from just about everyone, the guy recruits really, really well. I'm not 100% thrilled, but they could have done much worse. He seems like a guy that really wants the job. With Shaka or Stevens, unless they had immediate success, I think you'd have to be concerned about them taking off in 4-5 years.

QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Mar 27, 2012 -> 12:21 PM) Jerrance would have been a better hire than Groce. LOL, now we've officially gone off the deep end.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Mar 27, 2012 -> 12:13 PM) Wesley Lowery ‏ @WesleyLowery Sources have told @ThePostSports that Groce to Illinois is a "done deal" #grocewatch yeah, press conf at 3pm.

QUOTE (Buehrle>Wood @ Mar 27, 2012 -> 09:18 AM) Klee and Prep Bullseye saying Jerrance is gone if Groce is hired. Even better. that doesn't make much sense to me, unless he's got some beef with Groce. Jerrance has said since day one he wants to stay at Illinois. Not sure why the coach would matter.

QUOTE (Buehrle>Wood @ Mar 27, 2012 -> 09:01 AM) Anyone? This guy is very low. Decent Big Ten schools should not be considering coaches from the god awful MAC, let alone coaches who can't even win the conference. Name someone

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Mar 27, 2012 -> 08:03 AM) Haugh made a good point today. If Akron makes an open shot Ohio doesn't make the tournament and this guy is never considered. He may turn out to be the greatest coach in Illinois history he may be awful. It will all come down to recruiting Which everyone agrees he's very good at. For those against the Groce hire, I agree, it's not exciting. But what the hell is the alternative? Reggie Theus? .

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Mar 26, 2012 -> 03:40 PM) It was from prof. Volokh's post: http://volokh.com/2012/03/24/lethal-self-d...ssor-exception/ Zimmerman's wounds are sufficient evidence to claim self-defense. Well, i'd argue the injury itself isn't enough. He'd still have to show what caused it.

QUOTE (Steve9347 @ Mar 26, 2012 -> 03:39 PM) This thread is as all over the place as all of these "reports" and "eye-witness accounts". We'll never know for sure what happened and what events led up to what happened. The arguments in this thread are ridiculous because no one here has any idea what they are arguing. This is true. That story that was just posted was the first I heard about some eye witness testimony that corroborated Zimmerman's version. Two days ago there weren't any witnesses.

Lol, at that report saying the Black Panthers offered up a bounty for Zimmerman. Nothing like fixing a crime with more crime!

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Mar 26, 2012 -> 03:29 PM) I don't think that's correct. The statute doesn't provide an affirmative defense but legal immunity. He is presumed to be acting in self-defense if he claims so unless the prosecutors can demonstrate beyond a reasonable doubt that he was not. The two legal-blog articles I posted a page or two ago went into this. He would still have to prove the immunity applies. You can't just shoot someone and scream "IMMUNITY!" and expect the world to just accept your word. It's still his burden to establish that he was using self-defense. Share the link. I'd be interested to see why other people think that wouldn't be the case.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Mar 26, 2012 -> 03:23 PM) And he has all of the evidence he needs. He was injured. Martin clearly struck him or struggled with him. Barring a whole lot stronger details coming out which would contradict his statements...he has more than enough evidence. This law has been applied in a lot weaker cases than this, bar fights and such, and still held. His injury means little given the other evidence that pretty firmly establishes that he was the aggressor. I think a reasonable juror (given what I've read up to this point) could (and probably would) find that it wasn't reasonable to shoot the kid given the circumstances. Cite me these other weak cases. I'm guessing I can pretty easily draw distinctions. This case is a terrible example to get rid of the stand your ground laws because you're dealing with a shooter that pretty clearly took it too far. Here's the use of force section for aggressors in Florida law: Good luck to him proving any of that in this case. It's his word versus a dead kid who he was clearly going after.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Mar 26, 2012 -> 03:12 PM) As I said in that post...the only thing that is a legitimate illegal act in the eyes of the state of Florida is the true initiation of the physical confrontation. If Zimmerman walked up to the kid and then hit him unprovoked, then Martin responded, then Zimmerman is the aggressor. If Martin were to be running down the street trying to get away from the guy in the truck who is chasing him, then turned and threw something or struck Zimmerman when he "Stopped to get out of his car and see what street he was on", then every step from that point is effectively ok under this premise where he is allowed to stand his ground. Which means...the State of Florida would have to actively prove that Zimmerman began the physical confrontation with malice in order to charge him with anything. Basically, it has to establish that Martin, when first contronted by the guy in the truck, responded by laying down and doing nothing, not trying to get away, not becoming belligerent...just taking the instructions of the guy in the truck, and that Zimmerman then made a physical move on him anyway. Outside of actual video coming to light, it seems like a near impossible case to make. Martin is alleged to have struck Zimmerman when Zimmerman got out of his truck. That's Martin escalating the event, and under stand your ground doctrine, he is allowed to respond. You're either purposefully ignoring half the law or just not reading it properly. You're also ignoring all of the circumstantial evidence in this case that a jury will be provided. The state has to prove nothing with regard to this statute, and certainly not that Zimmerman was acting with malice (has nothing to do with this case). It's all on him. HE has to prove that he felt it reasonably necessary to use deadly force to prevent serious injury or death. The state only has to prove that he killed Martin. I think a reasonable juror could find that it was NOT "reasonably necessary" for a guy to chase after someone (whether or not he initiated an actual fight or not) and shoot him. You're parsing all this up into different acts and that's not how the law reads or how the law will be applied.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Mar 26, 2012 -> 02:47 PM) I'm not sure that it matters, but someone's going to post it anyway. If this were Obama's son would he have brought pot to school?

QUOTE (iamshack @ Mar 26, 2012 -> 03:00 PM) I don't understand your rationale here. The law does not extend to illegal acts. If Zimmerman initiated something that in the eyes of the law is an illegal act, he has no justification for escalating anything. Maybe I am misinterpreting you, but you seem to be arguing that someone can kill people if he has any right to believe his life is in danger. That is simply not true. One can not hold up a gas station and shoot the clerk if he attempts to defend himself with a weapon of some sort. The stand your ground law only applies if you are in a place you have a legal right to be and you're not committing a crime...Where things get really difficult is if Martin just became frightened and decided to attack Zimmerman without provocation. Jenks, do you think if Zimmerman verbally threatened Martin as the initiating act in the sequence that he would still be able to utilize the SYG provision, or is he already engaged in an illegal act at that point? Nope, I think you've read the statute the way I do. It's a self-defense statute for a reason. You can't go looking for fights and then once the fight ensues claim that you were just acting in self defense. In fact, either the Illinois law or the Florida law expressly prohibits that sort of thing.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Mar 26, 2012 -> 02:57 PM) Actually Tex...I think this is a lot closer to what the intent was. There's a reason why these laws were passed in a ton of states right after Katrina and the supposed looting that never really happened. never really happened? i remember watching the news live as it was happening.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Mar 26, 2012 -> 01:04 PM) Yeah, there's the reasonable person standard to be met here. The problem is that, more often than not, these scenarios have two witnesses, and one of them is dead. I would guess though that if it's just people in an empty room and one person is dead and the other argues self-defense that a typical juror is going to be biased towards the shooter than the dead guy. Unless there's some evidence otherwise (like injury that isn't self-inflicted). But even then this situation is rare. In some of the cases you were talking about last week they were fights in bars and whatnot.

QUOTE (Tex @ Mar 26, 2012 -> 12:52 PM) The question becomes can he evaluate the level of player he needs to attract at UI? I don't think there will be an issue evaluating talent. That's probably the first thing these coaches learn to do since their success depends on finding the second or third tier guys that can play. Talent is rarely an issue at Illinois. It was for a season or two after the Eric Gordon crap fell through. Otherwise Illinois has had plenty of talent to compete for conference titles and decent seeding. It's come down to work ethic and the inability to get better as the season progressed. That happened about 3 times on Webers' watch - his first two seasons and in 08-09 when they were hot and could have made a run before Frazier broke his hand in the Big Ten tourney. The rest of the time they were about the same from the beginning of the season on, if not worse. And if he keeps Jerrance Howard the contacts with the top Chicago talent (though maybe not the one or two premier guys) will remain intact.

QUOTE (RockRaines @ Mar 26, 2012 -> 12:32 PM) I can see the frustration of Illinois fans in that it's not as good of a hire as other schools in the conference have made like Michigan, Indiana, OSU, Iowa (somehow), but you have to look at it without orange and blue glasses on, Groce is a pretty decent hire with a good pedigree. Kind of exactly like the football hire. If you want someone who has a chance to recruit extremely well and stick around even if he's successful that he's your guy. If you want a stepping stone guy then guys like Martin, etc would be just that. But this "as good" stuff is kind of ridiculous. Go look at Bo Ryan's D1 record before taking over for Wisky. Crean was like 50% at getting to the tournament at Marquette, had a final four run with D-Wade, but was blown out of the gym once he got there. Except for this last year Beilen hasn't done much at Michigan. It's just not a slam dunk that a big name hire will do anything for you. Ask Minnesota fans how Tubby has worked out. Heck, the best coach in the Big Ten had ZERO head coaching experience, and look what MSU's been the last decade.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Mar 26, 2012 -> 11:39 AM) And the simple, undeniable fact is that Zimmerman was injured in that confrontation. Thus, by the laws of that state, he was fully legally allowed to pull the trigger in self defense. The only thing you could get him on is a vague concept of starting the confrontation by following the kid. Is it a crime to follow a kid down the street and harass him because you don't want him in that area? I sincerely doubt it. I don't understand why you keep arguing this. It's simply not true.

Man, some Illinois fans need to get a grip. I don't understand the outrage.

QUOTE (RockRaines @ Mar 26, 2012 -> 10:43 AM) I am not sure thats accurate, but he's fairly well regarded in OSU circles. OU hasnt even gotten a ton of talent, even as far as the MAC goes. However 2 tourney appearances in 3 years coaching speaks pretty highly of the job he's done. There are many teams mentioned in these threads that havent accomplished that even with superior talent. I dont think Illinois is quite the job many fans think it is, but it COULD be the kind of job where an up and comer makes his name and stays for a LONG successful time. There's no question that it's got the potential to be a top tier program. Not on the Kentucky/UNC/Kansas/Duke-success level, but right under that. But the problem has been consistency. Unfortunately the longest tenured coach after Henson has been Weber. Had Kruger stayed I think we'd be in a different position today. Had Self stayed we'd be in a different position today. But it is what it is. My hope is that the next coach can come in here and coach Paul/Richardson and the sophomores up and make them a tournament team. There's enough talent on the roster, but whether it can happen just depends on how the players respond. My other hope is that the next coach can strike a chord with Parker/Nunn/Hamilton and sell them on a revitalized program that can play the role of Kentucky for a year or two to go along with the new digs at the Assembly Hall. And since I'll be winning the mega millions tomorrow, i'll be buying a nice court side seats to watch it all unfold.

QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Mar 26, 2012 -> 10:09 AM) 34-30 in the MAC. Mediocrity at its finest. It was a crappy program to begin with though. And he did take them to the sweet 16...should have been the elite eight...this year. He's the best option out there I think. My list was Stevens, Shaka and Buzz. The first 2 were not very realistic, and Marquette is becoming a top level Big East school. Not sure who else would be better at this point.

Wasn't Groce the lead recruiter on a lot of the McD AA's that Matta got at OSU?