bigruss

QUOTE (iamshack @ Jul 30, 2010 -> 03:28 PM) That is hard for me to swallow, but you may be right. However, that certainly does not mean that the $8 million is somehow irrelevant. If that was all the value Hudson had, then you keep him and hope he pans out, because the situation with Hudson panning out >>>>> EJax panning out.

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Jul 30, 2010 -> 03:25 PM) And it should be clear that on todays market, Jackson at 8mil was worth more than Hudson. KW isnt going out and doing other teams favors. This was all he could get for Hudson. Id rather have Jackson out there every 5 days than Hudson this season. I would rather have Hudson out there every 5 days with all things considered. If this is all Hudson gets you, you dont make the move.

QUOTE (WHarris1 @ Jul 30, 2010 -> 03:25 PM) But in the grand scheme of things what the f*** does it matter if he's our number 2 prospect? He's the 2nd tallest midget. If this guy was so highly regarded and sought after then why didn't the Nationals jump at a chance to trade Dunn for him? It doesnt matter what he was ranked, but he was the best, young, cheap pitcher that had the chance to have an impact NOW and in the future with the Sox. You just traded him for a pitcher with just as many question marks, but who is older and has an $8.5 mill price tag.

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Jul 30, 2010 -> 03:22 PM) Kalapse, When 90% of the posters are condescending towards me, I cant help myself. If people want to imply that I dont understand f***ing salary, the most simple thing in baseball, then Im going to give it back in spades. If people want to believe that Hudson is better than Jackson, thats one thing. But to suggest that some how the Sox dont understand the potential consequences of adding more pitching salary to a team in need of hitting, is just mind boggling. At least give the Sox management some credit, that maybe they know a little bit what they are doing. Thats all I ask from posters, juts give them a shred of credit. You dont have to agree, but KW has been responsible for more success than any other GM in my life. He at least deserves some deference in his decision making. Youve been making a strong argument that you dont understand it though. Youve been stating that it doesnt matter, that they can afford it, but you have shown no understanding of the ramifications of the additional salary in which EJax brings. And Im not saying adding salary is bad, I just think his performance will be about the same as Hudson's so when combined with the salary EJax has its an awful idea to make that trade. Why would I give teh Sox mgmt credit if I disagree with the trade? I like that they are proactive, but I would rather have them stay pat if they make bad trades like this. And just because KW has been the most successful GM in your life doesnt mean you shouldnt question his moves or doesnt take away your right to disagree with him.

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Jul 30, 2010 -> 03:12 PM) No that presupposes that some how the White Sox could have used the money that Jackson will receive this year for a bat. The more likely scenario is that Hudson could not get the White Sox anything better than Jackson. And salary is relevant overall, but not in the context of this trade. Reinsdorf decided that they could afford Jackson. If salary was an issue they would have gotten money back or not done the trade. The Sox clearly feel they can afford this salary, therefore it is not relevant. Sure, the Sox can afford to have EJax in the payroll next year, but at what cost? At the cost of not being able to fill the massive amount of holes next year?

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Jul 30, 2010 -> 03:10 PM) How many World Series did the Sox win the previous 80 years before Kenny? How many playoff appears did the Sox have the previous 10 years before Kenny? How many Central Division Championships did the White Sox win with Schueler as GM? Its not a lifetime pass, but if you were a Sox fan from 1980-2000 you appreciate what Kenny has done a lot more. I appreciate alot that Kenny has done, does that mean I shouldnt want my favorite team in my favorite sport to be teh best it can be? That if I dont agree with a trade that I cannot express my opinions on it? I cannot say that I see this trade haunting the Sox not because of Hudson possibly being a stud (I see him as an AL #3 in the future) but because of the salary constraints it puts on us next year coupled with what I see as marginal improvement?

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Jul 30, 2010 -> 03:06 PM) Ill play "What my eyes tell me". And id say on the majority of White Sox trades, ive been on the right side (look it up if youd like). I was a huge fan of the Floyd trade when no one else was, and once again Ill be the only person who is a fan of this trade if I have to be. Salary is irrelevant in this discussion because the people who have the money, have decided that salary didnt matter. I am comfortable that Reinsdorf wont overspend and put his team in peril for the next few seasons. That leaves the only consideration of who is better, Hudson or Jackson. I think Hudson is a serviceable pitcher, but im not sure that I want him as a playoff pitcher this year. That would mean Freddy would be our 4. With Jackson the Sox have flexibility (if he stays). Jackson has been brutal since his no hitter, my guess is that he is suffering from dead arm. Not a great time to be picking him up, but most likely you wouldnt get Jackson for Hudson at any other team. Its clear Hudson wasnt a hot commodity to anyone else but fans on this message board. Jackson has thrown consistently before, during, and after his no hitter, hes been clocked at 94 the whole time. How is salary irrelevent? The Sox will not go past a certain mark, and EJax's salary makes it all that much harder to stay under said amount (which will probably range between $95-110 mill depending on attendance and if we make the postseason/how far we go in it). A servicable starter at league min >>>> A servicable starter making $8.5 million. I too was a fan of the Floyd trade, we got back 2 young pitchers and dumped Freddy's salary. I thought we could have gotten more, but was not upset at all by that trade because it was clear that something was wrong physically with Freddy.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Jul 30, 2010 -> 02:58 PM) No, because Floyd was making nothing when we traded for him. The key to acquiring the pitchers people have soured on them is there is tremendous upside if they have hardly any service time under their belts. If you turn them around, they pitch effectively for very little $. The same cannot be said for Jackson, regardless of how he pitches. Exactly, he eats up alot of the payroll in which we were hoping that Hudson was going to save the team.

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Jul 30, 2010 -> 02:48 PM) Really Lilly and Lee? That would be a brutal deal. As for Hudson and Jackson being equal, I guess that almost 1:1 bb:k ratio Hudson is rocking really impresses people? Hudson faced 71 batters, 28 of them reached base. Im sorry but if the Sox were going to the playoffs with Hudson/Garcia at the 4 spot they were in major trouble. Jackson may not be the best pitcher, but hes a serviceable 4 with (imo) more upside than Hudson. Wanna play small sample sizes? I guess you do, so you went first so now its my time: Jackson has given up 22 runs in the last 5 games, thats only 27 innings. He had 19 strikeouts and 14 walks.

QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Jul 30, 2010 -> 02:39 PM) Thats why they are gonna trade for Adam Dunn and win the World Series! Then a rough year like 2007 will be much easier to handle next season. Ride the Wave out!

QUOTE (iamshack @ Jul 30, 2010 -> 02:38 PM) How did we so quickly have a chance to fall back to 2007 again? I thought in 2007 we were dooming ourselves to years and years of nothing but horrible baseball, because our system was devoid of any talent whatsoever? We would have a hole at: C 1b 3b (teahen is not the answer) CL Set up man Then you have the bench to fill out. And you already have $85ish committed (with arb raises), and if we even get up to $110 mill in payroll I dont think we can fit in enough highly talented players to make a competitive team.

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Jul 30, 2010 -> 02:34 PM) The Jackson trade is what it is. Hudson obviously was unable to land us a better cheaper pitcher, so the Sox got what they could. Would I rather have Jackson for the rest of the season than Hudson? Yes So the trade isnt bad for the Sox no matter how you much doom and gloom people want to say. I legitimately think Hudson would have out performed EJax the rest of the season. That is straight up opinion, and a few stats can back it up, but its all an estimation. You feel differently, thats okay, but that doesnt mean Im spreading doom and gloom.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Jul 30, 2010 -> 02:30 PM) In the other thread, Russ, name the other teams that have been as active as the White Sox have been over the past 6-7 years in getting big players that become available. This is some fantasy you seem to have that there are other teams out there constantly loaded with prospects and acquiring veteran all-stars every year simply with a wave of their magic wand. I dont expect the Sox to make a move on every big name player out there, thats not what I am arguing. Im saying that the Sox need a better farm system so when they need to make a move like going after Cabrera, Dunn, Fielder, they can do so with prospects left over to help the team in the future still. You cannot deny that next season the Sox will have a lot of holes to fill with a limited payroll, and all of a sudden youre looking at 2007 again.

QUOTE (BigSqwert @ Jul 30, 2010 -> 02:29 PM) Sale next year? He wont be ready as a starter, atleast not for the beginning of the year.

QUOTE (BearSox @ Jul 30, 2010 -> 02:01 PM) Wow, who really gives a s***? If the fans want to do it, let them f***ing do it. It hardly takes anything away from the game except maybe you miss a pitch. Yeah, most of us on this board are diehard fans, but the majority of the 30,000 fans there probably are just casual fans and just going to game for some fun. I'm not going to let the f***ing wave ruin my day like it does to everyone on here it seems like. And getting embarrassed because your buddy was at a sox game and saw the wave? Grow some nuts! You must not realize that some of the s*** that goes down at wrigley is easily some of the most vulgar and disgusting stuff you will ever see at a pro sports outing. If I was a Cubs fan I would be embarrassed by the manners in the bleachers. And the wave occurred during probably the most crucial part of the game.

QUOTE (Pants Rowland @ Jul 30, 2010 -> 01:27 PM) I was at last night's game as well and had invited an ex-coworker who is a die hard Cubs fan. When the damn wave started she said "oh, I forgot they do that here." I was embarrassed as a Sox fan but I let it go. Then it got worse, just as J.J. goes into the windup, the wave reaches our section in RF. The ball is hit, I believe for a double, and a run or something scored. I don't know all the details cause all the f***ing morons around me got up to do the wave and I saw nothing after Putz went into the delivery. The wave sucks and it is clear that people were not paying attention to the game. Other than the 2005 trophy, our reputation of Sox fans being into the game is all we got going for us. Otherwise, we are edgy, blue collar, drunk, umpire/KC 1st base coach beating, wave starting, white trash fans from Bridgeport and surrounding areas. I won't stand for it, literally or figuratively. Agreed on many parts. Im okay with it if the Sox are out of contention and were getting owned 10-0 or something like that, because I understand then that the fans dont have much to look forward too. But CMON! We were in a close game, Putz was struggling, and the Mariners were making a legitimate run to get the game back to even. There were a ton of stupid comments, the guy behind me said Freddy was a joke of a pitcher, and I wanted to say "Unless you mean he riddles the opponents go at his track record this season." Where did you sit?

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 30, 2010 -> 02:26 PM) That is a really good point. Nothing says the pitchers we end the season with are the pitchers we begin 2011 with. Anyone of our starters could be gone in the offseason, problem is you would have to get young pitching in return to replace them because after Hudson we have nobody ready to step in and be an impact.

This is also KW's strength, where he goes balls out to get the team in WS contention, and I love that. Problem is, I dont see us having enough pieces for a legit starter and bat, not to mention the holes it leaves next season. That is why I have been advocating for the better farm system, so he couldve gone out and got a Haren and a bat (Dunn, Berkman, Laroche). Given the prices, I think that wouldve been reasonable if we had a better system.

QUOTE (greg775 @ Jul 30, 2010 -> 02:20 PM) I'm not trying to be sarcastic. I love Gordo. Nobody is saying you are, it's just that you cannot seem to detect sarcasm by anyone else and that you post responses as if that person was serious.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Jul 30, 2010 -> 02:20 PM) Oh don't even get me started. If we pull off Dunn and Myers you are going to have a lot of answering to do, Russ... And so will KW when he asks for a $150 mill payroll to afford a team that will compete next year, or we will be back in 2007 land. I will put this out there though, I think we're a legit WS contender this year with Dunn and EJax. In that situation or with Myers/Dunn, next year looks bleak.

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Jul 30, 2010 -> 02:18 PM) Yeah I dont understand what payroll is. /rolls eyes There is more to payroll than just adding up numbers on a message board and acting like its some secret. If the Sox added jackson, they understand their payroll better than you or I. Looking at my post it should be pretty clear there are only 2 possible scenarios: 1) Jackson is going to be traded. 2) Another starter is going to be traded. I earlier suggested that the big trade could involve Danks. Danks has not signed an extension yet and could command far more than Jackson. The Sox may see Jackson as a semi-replacement for Danks in the future and are going to cash in on Danks now while they can. So its more that I believe that the Sox management understands that payroll is a factor so if they added Jackson, they must have some sort of reason/solution to go with the payroll situation. Ive never seen Jerry write checks that he cant cash, so Ill trust that Jerry/Einhorn and the rest understand payroll more than this message board. Sorry if that comes off as offensive, but thats reality. Why would the Sox trade Danks now? Hes too damn valuable as a starter to just trade him now during the season unless we got someone like Grienke and a bat.

QUOTE (greg775 @ Jul 30, 2010 -> 02:18 PM) That's going to be sad losing Beckham. Very sad. I like everything about him. You REALLY have to get your sarcasm detector working.

QUOTE (bigruss22 @ Jul 30, 2010 -> 02:15 PM) You just have to go back to the "I want KW and Ozzie fired" thread to see how people dont understand payroll and wat it effects. It's obviously Lillibridge going.

QUOTE (docsox24 @ Jul 30, 2010 -> 02:14 PM) the people who like the hudson deal cant seem to figure out that payroll actually is a major factor You just have to go back to the "I want KW and Ozzie fired" thread to see how people dont understand payroll and wat it effects.

The value in return for Hudson is all subjective, one person may look at EJax and say, "This is all we got for our best prospect?" while others will say you dont worry about the finances and you added a ML pitcher who possibly could be a stud with Cooper. Just look at the Blue Jays-Astros swap of Wallace-Gose. The Blue Jays loved that deal, but meanwhile everyone else in baseball is scratching their heads.