beck72

QUOTE(jphat007 @ Feb 4, 2006 -> 03:56 PM) I have no doubt Philly would do that deal. Especially if GIllick wnats to try and win this year. I also have no doubt that KW wouldn't. Abreu and Floyd for Jose and Dye seems like a starting point for a deal. How much it improves [or is improved upon by other teams] is the question in order for the sox to swing a deal.

QUOTE(jphat007 @ Feb 4, 2006 -> 05:58 AM) I'd imagine that KW has talked to almost every team in baseball the last 8-9 days. PS. KW is not trading Contreras. Why would KW talk to every team in baseball in the last 8-9 days if Contreras wasn't on the block? Who else would be talked about in a trade? It is pretty clear that KW talked to Philly. The who and what is unclear. But the Phils want to get rid of Abreu's contract, and do need a very good SP and a cheap replacement for Abreu. And they would probably do a Dye and Jose for Abreu and Gavin Floyd right now. The sox probably not, unless they could see Floyd pitch and be sure he could help them this yr. From the sounds of it, names were talked about. I could see this scenario: The Sox make sure all their arms are healthy in ST. They get a chance to scout a guy like Floyd and make sure he's more the pitcher like prior to 2005 and not the one with a 6+ ERA in AAA. Or they could look at another arm almost ready for the bigs. If the sox staff is healthy, and a Philly prospect looks good, a deal could then be made.

From BA's 2004 Prospect Handbook: Phils #2 "Floyd entered his pro career w/ two plus pitches, a 92-95 mph fastball w/ movement and a shoulders to shoelaces hard curveball that rates a 80 on the 20-80 scale at times. His main focus since has been developing a changeup which now rates average. A longtime fan of Kevin Millwood, Floyd tried to emulate his idol's deliberate delivery after wactching him in ST. It cost Floyd his rhythm and deceptiveness and it tool a month to remedy the problem. He must coninue to hone his location and ability to repeat pitches, but he's still ahead of most pitchers his age. Floyd's development is right on track. He'll move up to AA in 2004."

QUOTE(Frank the Tank 35 @ Feb 1, 2006 -> 09:57 PM) Really? Not even in a deal for Madson? Everyone has their own ideas when it comes to the necessity of a 6th starter in the minors. I think it would definitely be a luxury but not an absolute necessity. I do find it difficult to see JC reeling in Heilman and Milledge. I mean Heilman alone could put up pretty good numbers as a starter, then to add Milledge, a necessity for a Manny trade... I dunno. It would have to be something like JC is seconds away from being traded to the Phils, and Minaya feels like he absolutely could not let that happen, so he forces a trade like this. Even if nothing happens at all, all these trade rumors have given me something engaging to do during the offseason.... and for that, thank you mlbtraderumors.com I think that's the only scenario the sox do make a deal--that a team overpays. If any situation would be ripe is one team wants to prevent another team in its division from landing a top player, esp a SP [the sox might have done that with Thome, keeping him from Clev. to an extent]. Seeing how Gillick from the Phils already has said their team is a 90 win team at best right now, and other teams are stronger [ie, the Mets, Braves] getting the Phils to overpay may be the best bet. But if the Mets want to overpay, by all means.....

QUOTE(EvilJester99 @ Jan 29, 2006 -> 11:54 AM) I think Toronto could be a good potential trading partner...see if they would be willing to deal Vernon Wells...not likely but hell why not try. I was just trying to look at the Mets-Philly aspect of a trade, esp. if both teams tried to stop the other from getting Jose. Both have been linked to wanting Jose in the past. I haven't heard Tor. looking at Jose

QUOTE(DBAH0 @ Jan 29, 2006 -> 11:14 AM) And right now if you're discussing which is the better trade scenario, I think if the Mets offered Milledge and Heilman, that would be hard for the Phillies to beat, even if they included Madson in a deal, they'd also have to offer someone like Gavin Floyd IMHO. I agree. Milledge could turn around and be traded for 2 or 3 pitchers. But I don't see the mets giving him up in a deal for Jose.

QUOTE(dmbjeff @ Jan 29, 2006 -> 06:24 AM) if we traded count to the mets id rather it be with uribe and get jose reyes plus some bullpen help.....ozzie really wanted a #2 hitter with speed and reyes would fit the bill....he rarely walks, but he is still very good Jose Reyes is untouchable

QUOTE(Frank the Tank 35 @ Jan 28, 2006 -> 06:21 PM) I mention this in regard to the Phils and Mets because we're talking about a similar package, one involving a RP and a prospect, preferably a SP. I just think if this is the route we go, we could maximize our returns with the Jays. While I'd like Heilman or Madson, I'm a little leery of the fact that they're both over eager to start. Heilman even requested to be traded if they're not going to use him as a starter. If they came here, they'd need to understand their role is in the pen for at least the next two years barring injury. Any route we go though, KW really needs to rip off his trading partner. Any pitcher the sox get would have to know they'd be taking a back seat to almost every pitcher the sox already have. Madson is a guy I'd really like. Heilman less so. Yet if these two teams do compete for Jose, they price would go up from those two.

QUOTE(Punch and Judy Garland @ Jan 28, 2006 -> 04:37 PM) I'm leery of getting a bullpen guyy and thinking he could make 30 starts if need be. People here, and I'm not kidding, were thinking Dustin Hermanson would set-up and then come in and start if need be. I think Heilman's in a different category since he hasn't relieved as much and has started more but I think there is no guarantee that Madson can be stretched out and expected to make starts for a full season. Smoltz did it because he had a whole offseason to prerpare for it That's the debate--how to play to win now and for the future? If that's the case, Jose wouldn't be moved until the break at the earliest. And even then, it would be for the future for prospects. Few teams would be willing to give up integral parts of their winning season.

QUOTE(Flash Tizzle @ Jan 28, 2006 -> 04:20 PM) In 2006, the starting/relief combo of Contreras/McCarthy is better than both McCarthy/Heilman and McCarthy/Madson. I know Williams is intent on maintaing our current rotation, but you have to seriously consider either trade scenerio--if they were offered. You could potentially groom either for a future rotation spot, or simply maintain their presence in the bullpen for 4+ years. That's why getting a proven guy who could throw in both spots [or be better than Bmac that would keep him in the pen--which isn't likely] would be an absolute must in any trade. And if everyone stayed healthy in 2006, that bullpen guy/ 5th starter would strengthen an already strong pen. The combo of Jose/ McCarthy will beat any trade scenario for 2006. The sox would be hard pressed to get another SP as good as BMac. Yet it's not like BMac will take over as the #1 SP though. He could inevitably take over as the #4 SP if an injury occured. The larger question is whether the top 4 [which is the playoff rotation] would be hurt by a Jose trade. Is there a huge difference between Jose, MB, Garcia, Garland and MB, Garcia, Garland, Vazquez? Probably not.

to land him. Esp. as those two teams will be battling it out with the Braves for the NL East. With the Mets publicly interested in Jose, and the Phils linked as well, and Gillick on record that he wants and could get a #1 type SP before ST, the price would certainly have to go up in terms of talent to land Jose. Those teams would and should overpay to keep the other from getting another top SP. Esp. as this would be the last chance to land a top player before the July trade deadline. The question is, what would the Phils and Mets likely have to give up in order to get KW to deal Jose? And what would the price be? I'll start the ball rolling. The Phils--Ryan Madson and a prospect [Madson would start in the bullpen; and be the 6th SP option--he's been a SP all through his career, and was talked about being the 5th SP this yr for them] The Mets--Aaron Heilman and two prospects [or one top SP prospect like Brian Bannister]--Heilman was lights out in the bullpen the 2nd half-with a 0.68 ERA in over 40 IP. Yet he could also be the 6th SP option, as he's been a SP all his career as well]

Picked in the 15th round of the 2004 draft, Carlos had a very solid 2005 as a starting pitcher, splitting time in Great Falls and Kannapolis. His WHIP were very solid, and his K/9 were up. I look forward to following his progress in 2006, and finding out more about him. http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/T/c...-torres-1.shtml

I'd like to see the kid do well. The sox need to have a few position players from their farm system make an impact. They can't fill all the spots via trades and free agency. The farm system is a team's last resort to fill a spot when or if an injury occurs, or if a veteran starts sucking it up.

QUOTE(YASNY @ Jan 27, 2006 -> 10:46 AM) Prospects are great. I love 'em. I want the Sox to have a lot of 'em. But when it comes down to it, the whole shebang, every player in the Sox system, all the managers and coaches up and down the minor league system, the whole existance of the organization is set up to do two things. Turns profits and win championships. That's it. That's what it's all about. Williams finally was able to achieve the championship after an 88 year 'slump'. He agressively went out and tried to make that World Championship team even better. He traded away a very good OF prospect to make the pitching staff stronger. It doesn't calculate that he would then trade a very good pitcher from the big league staff to replace the very good OF prospect with another one. He might consider it if a decent young pitcher capable of being in the rotation or bullpen is part of the deal. But to trade Jose Contreras for any AA player in baseball is counterproductive for the White Sox at this particular point in time. Flat out, it doesn't make sense. I agree that Milledge wouldn't be a good fit for the Sox. It would only make sense if a team had some arms that could help the sox this yr that the sox could trade Milledge to. The Marlins come to mind with a bunch of pitchers near major league ready but few position players.

I only read a few pages. But I could see a 3 team trade working in this situation with the mets, with Milledge going to a third team that has some pitching.

QUOTE(jackie hayes @ Jan 24, 2006 -> 09:29 PM) I don't see why Michaels will "probably...be very mediocre in Jacobs field". I think Crisp will be better, but it's not a huge difference. I don't see how anyone can't be worried by the Indians after the pressure they put on us at the end of last season. They took a big hit to their rotation, the pen is a little worse, but this is still a very good team. I agree the indians are still a very good team. But there's a huge difference between Crisp and Michaels IMO. Having a one-two of Sizemore and Crisp for years to come would have really given the sox headaches. Michaels isn't anything special.

QUOTE(SoxFan101 @ Jan 22, 2006 -> 06:14 PM) Dont the Phills have like a Tejeda or something like that pitcher.... id want him in any deal.... with him and B-Mac we would have 2 future studs for a long time. I believe its Robinson Tejada. He threw from the bullpen and the rotation last yr. Yet his high walk total doesn't fit the sox mold of guys with good control and high K rate. A guy like Madson would though. And Madson was a SP all through the minors

QUOTE(witesoxfan @ Jan 22, 2006 -> 05:06 PM) But who's to say Jose Contreras is a sure-fire #1 starter? He had 4 very good months last season...but 4 very good months and 2 bad months don't make a sure-fire #1. They make an inconsistent pitcher, and in Contreras's case, one that can be an ace and a top 3-5 pitcher in the league period. I'm as big of a Jose Contreras fan as anyone, but to call him a sure-fire ace is a bit premature at this point. Are you willing to give up a top RFer in the game along with a great swingman in Ryan Madson for a guy who is not a guaranteed ace and is not guaranteed to be with you past 2006? I know I wouldn't be. I think on the surface, Contreras and a prospect for Abreu and Madson may make sense for both teams, but I personally feel after doing a little deeper study of it that it doesn't make much a ton of sense for either team...you're either asking Abreu to play CF, which would be like asking Magglio or Podsednik to play CF, or you asking him to play RF, in which case Dye is gone, and it would be bad business to trade Dye after he honored a handshake agreement with KW taking less money than he would have gotten from Texas, along with getting rid of one of the best value players in the game. And I'm not sure how much sense it makes for Philly losing their best offensive player for a pitcher who had 4 very good months last year with only the 1 year remaining on his contract. His production is likely to decline sooner rather than later as well, making it a bad investment for Philly to make. Jose's playoff peformance should alleviate any concern whether or not he's for real. But the key is him being a FA after 2006. I said Abreu isn't a good fit for the sox. But if the Phils could be willing to center a deal for Jose around Madson and a prospect, then something could get done. I agree, the phils will need Abreu's offense. Esp if they trade Michaels to the Indians. If the Phils pick up another bullpen arm from the Indians, they could then deal Madson. Another thing to keep in mind is that Randy Wolf is due back in July. Then a 5th starter type like Tejada, Hamels or Franklin could go back to the bullpen

QUOTE(BlackBetsy @ Jan 22, 2006 -> 03:46 PM) Fantastic deal for the Indians. Crisp is a guy who had an abnormally good year; they are trading him at his peak. And to get one of the top 5 hitting prospects in the game PLUS a good bullpen arm in Mota is, quite frankly, amazing. I thought Boston's people were smarter than that. Plus, Marte plays 3B - the worst position for the Indians last year - meaning that he could fill a need as soon as 2006, but certainly by 2007. My initial conclusion is that the Indians of 2006 minus Millwood, minus Crisp but plus Marte, Mota, and Byrd are just as good as the 2005 Indians. Another good race in the AL Central next year. It may be a good deal for the Indians for the long term. But in the short term, the 2006 season, dealing Crisp still means the Indians haven't improved. Crisp had a line of .299/.374/.411 in the minor leagues. And he replicated his 2004 yr in 2005, while hitting for more power. Losing Crisp and replacing him with Jason Michaels while Marte is in AAA waiting for Boone to fizzle isn't a plus Losing Millwood and his sub 3.00 ERA and Elarton from the rotation, and replacing them with Byrd and Johnson isn't a plus. Losing Howry and either Betancourt, Riske or Rhodes and replacing them with Mota isn't a plus. They also had to settle for Wickman as the closer after losing out on their two top choices. I do agree though the AL Central will be a tough race, with Cleveland being a strong factor

QUOTE(DBAH0 @ Jan 22, 2006 -> 01:10 PM) I think Madson would almost be the most untouchable player on Philly's team right now. He's so valuable to them in terms of being that Shields guy, or being able to start, and they don't have a lot of other different options in the bullpen. that's the key question--would they want a #1 SP at the expense of a really solid set up guy? With Madson's drop off in Sept, the Phils may think he's not ready for the Shields role [a guy who throws 80-90 innings--he was awesome in '04 throwing 50+ innings though]. He did have 7 blown saves [though how much was it other guys in the 'pen who were unable to get guys out and he was stuck with the runs?]. If the Phils aren't sure he can be a SP, and may not be a guy who can give them 70-80 innings, getting a sure fire #1 SP could be attractive. Esp as Gillick has said he still wants a #1 SP, with few guys out there who fit that bill and are available

I think the Phils would like to get rid of Abreu. But the sox don't need him [taking into consideration his salary, replacing Dye, etc]. Though as the Phils are looking for an ace, Contreras would be the most cost effective guy and most likely guy available for them. If the Phils would be willing to trade a guy like Ryan Madson [who could start in the future as he came up in the minors as a SP but eat up innings in the bullpen now ala Scott Shields from the angels] and a prospect for Contreras, maybe that would be a deal worth doing.

QUOTE(DBAH0 @ Jan 22, 2006 -> 10:40 AM) A bit of short - term pain for long - term gain. I'd be estacic as an Tribe fan right now, especially if its Arthur Rhodes they're giving up and not Rafeal Betancourt. I doubt the Phils would give up Michaels for just Rhodes. A younger pitcher like Betancourt would make more sense. Though with LH relievers being scarce, who knows. What this looks like is Cleveland sees it has to improve on what they had in order to beat the White Sox.

QUOTE(Rowand44 @ Jan 22, 2006 -> 10:25 AM) In half the ab's. If Marte does live up to his potential then this deal is obviously going to be huge for Cleveland down the road but for this year I'm glad as f*** for Crisp to be out of there. I agree. The Indians would have been better the next few years with Crisp, though they might be better in the long run with Marte

QUOTE(witesoxfan @ Jan 21, 2006 -> 05:36 AM) However...say, hypothetically, Uribe doesn't work in the 2 slot...but Iguchi is killing the ball down in the order and is a real force for us. Do we take that force away, or do we find someone else to fill that spot in the lineup...someone like, say, AJ Pierzynski? I know he's not your prototypical 2 hitter, but I personally think he would probably be a pretty good 2 hitter. He has shown he can atleast keep the ball fair when he bunts, he doesn't strike out much at all, he would be great in hit-and-run situations, he can go to the right side of the infield rather easily, and it would get him more into the hit for average mentality again rather than the hit for power type mentality. I dunno...maybe just food for thought. IMO, you'd move Iguchi back to the two spot. The sox have few other guys who could better what Tad did last yr in the #2 hole--AJ prob. couldn't. Getting on base and giving Thome, PK, and Dye RBI chances will be very important this yr. Esp as the sox have guys who can knock in runs down in the order who also have some pop to their bat--AJ, Crede, Anderson as well.

After Uribe added his little leg kick for timing, he hit well and had a much better eye at the plate. His numbers were something like a .300 avg and a .370+ OBP the last month. While those are probably much too high to expect over the whole year, if he went .280 with a .350 OBP, that would be about the best the sox could hope for [barring any big trade]