whitesox61382

I was basing my Hughes final 3 on direct quotes from Hughes about 2 weeks ago. Also, on the Rivals special on players announcing at the AAA game it listed Hughes final 3 as ILL, ND, and OSU. Either way, for all intensive purposes it is down to ILL and ND. If Wisconsin is interested in landing a top RB they better get Clay because the only thing they are fighting for with Hughes is who will finish a distant 3rd behind ILL and ND. With that said, all indications are that he will be heading to ILL next year. I would love to see Hughes at ND, but ND appears to be in good shape at RB without Hughes. I am a bit surprised that Martin is heading to Tenn. It just goes to show how unpredictable some of these 18 year old kids are. You can have all the insider information in the world and still miss. I thought for sure that he was heading for OSU. Once again, it would have been great for ND to land Martin, but they already have two very underrated DE prospects already committed. Apparently ND will not be shut out today. Rumor has it that 4 star OL Romine will announce ND over OU later today. Weis has done a nice job rebuilding the talent and depth at OL with the past two recruiting classes. ND is also in the running for 4 star OL Summer-Gavin, although I think he is heading to Cal at this point. I can't wait until 5 star LB Donald makes his decision known. He has really kept things quiet despite the fact that he made his decision about 2 months ago. Insiders for both Tenn and ND think he is heading their way, but my gut tells me he is Tenn bound. Either way, I will be glad that he announces one way or the other(a little more happy if he puts on the ND hat though). ND best bet, besides Romine, is likely 4 star LB Edwards. I have seen some conflicting reports, some saying ND and some saying FL, but ND is in pretty good position. I think 4 star S Williams will announce for Mich in the end. My final predictions: Hughes - ILL, Romine - ND, Donald - Tenn, Edwards - FL/ND(too close to tell, who knows maybe even Mich), Williams - Mich

QUOTE(He_Gawn @ Jan 5, 2007 -> 11:10 PM) Around 12 potential Irish recruits will be deciding tomorrow. We reportedly have a good shot at 5-7 of them. I am not sure where you got the 12 number from. Maybe you mean committed recruits AND potential recruits combined at the AAA game? Here is a list of the potential recruits that have ND as one of their favorites that are going to announce tomorrow. *Martin 4 star DE - likely either OSU or ND: give the slight edge to OSU at this point *Donald 5 star LB - down to Tenn or ND: my gut tells me Tenn but Weis recently stated that a couple blue chip recruits will commit at the AAA game and hinted at Donald so I don't know *Edwards 4 star LB - down to Mich, Flor, and ND: ND has as good a shot as any team although it is always tough to pull southern boys away from their hometown favorites(Flor) *Romine 4 star OL - likely down to OU and ND: i thought that Romine soured on ND, but they are still in the running, I still think he is OU bound *Williams 4 star S - down to Mich and ND: reports say that Mich has the lead at this point *Hughes 4 star RB - down to Ill, OSU, and ND: I think he will end up at Ill Either way, it will still be a huge day(positive or negative) for the Irish tomorrow. I think ND will end up with 2-3 commitments after tomorrow and that should all but secure a top 5 class for them. Enjoy the game.

A few comments on ND(coming from an Irish fan)! 1) I think it would be a mistake for the Raiders to take Quinn. I never really thought he was THAT good. I thought that he often inflatted his numbers against weak opponents and struggled in the spotlight type games. The Raiders should be punished for not taking one of the big 3 last year. They might get saved if either Brohm and/or Russel come out earlier. Other wise, it might be in their best interest to take someone like Peterson in this draft. 2) I was impressed by Russel. Granted some of his receivers were wide open and most college QB should be able to make those throws, but the kid is a physical freak and has maybe the strongest arm in college football. I think I would take him over Quinn if he declares. 3) ND is not back YET. I was never of the fans that said ND is back at the championship level after last season or this season. As the last four games against top 10 teams(OSU, Mich, SC, LSU) has shown, ND is not an elite team. Furthermore, they won't be an elite team next year. With that said, they are laying the foundation right now. Last year they brought in the 8th ranked recruiting class, and this year they will likely have a top 5 recruiting class. As most college fans know, recruiting is the key to establishing a consistant contender. ND fans need to be a little patient though and allow Weis to get top players in his progam. 4) Weis overrated as a coach? Once again I am always cautious about calling a person with a limited track record a great coach. He has yet to have a signature win in his two years, and the last 4 blowouts are certainly cause for concern. Furthermore, an offensive genius shouldn't be held to 30 yards in a half of football no matter what defense he is facing. With that said, he is coaching a team with limited talent. This years senior class has talent(12th ranked recruiting class), but their is little talent/depth behind them. The junior class was rated 32th and the sophomore class was rated 40th in recruiting out of high school. Furthermore, the size of the junior and sophomore class is even more disturbing. Willingham brought in only 16 players in 2004(only 10 of which were 3 star recruits or better) and 15 players in 2005(only 13 of which were 3 star recruits or better). It is rare for a team to have fewer than 20 recruits in a given year(25 recruits is about average), but to have fewer than 20 in back to back years is almost unheard of. The point being that Weis doesn't have that much talent or depth to work with, and all things considered, he has done a solid job with the talent he has. 5) ND's future - I already looked at the future a little, but next year will be a little bit of a struggle. I look for 7-8 wins. Expect to see a lot of talented but inexperienced sophomores and freshman from the two top 10 recruiting classes see significant PT. There will be some growing pains, but it will certainly benefit ND in the future. When these two recruiting classes are junior/seniors in 2008, than I think we can expect to see ND legitimately in the title hunt, and not backing into a BSC bowl undeservingly. Furthermore, we will be able to judge Weis's ability to coach a little better. I think college coaches need 4 years before you can accurately evaluate their resume.

QUOTE(Palehosefan @ Dec 31, 2006 -> 10:46 PM) Watch either of these video's and you won't queston his arm strength or whether he takes enough snaps from behind center. There's a reason he's the top recruit in the nation according to one service. He's got the mechanics down already, has arm strength for all the throws, and is a winner, regardless of talent surrounding him. http://scout.Scout.com/asxplaylist.aspx?s=...mediaids=265950 http://scout.Scout.com/asxplaylist.aspx?s=...mediaids=258783 I'm not a Notre Dame fan and I would have loved nothing more than to watch him play and see an overrated recruit that got the Notre Dame recruiting boost, but I don't see one here. I hate making an argument against a recruit for a team that I truly love, but I learned a long time ago to be realistic with all the teams that I follow. I wasn't able to open either video, but I am sure that they are highlight videos, which only show the positive aspects of a player while almost complete ignoring any potential negative aspects. They are fun for fans to watch and get excited about, but are next to worthless for anyone who is truly trying to evaulate a prospect/recruit. Like I said before, I watched three full OC games over the past two years and I know what I saw. I saw a QB with questionable arm strength at times. Not having the ability to accurately make the depth throw and/or not being able to get the ball to the receiver when he was open. I don't have an exact number, but I would estimate that around 90% of his passes in the games that I watched were ten yards or less in the air. Furthermore, in every game he made at least two or three throws that would be considered poor decisions, such as trying to force balls into double or triple coverage. At the high school level, most of those passes fall incomplete, but at the college level a handful of them will be intercepted. I would compare his mobility to Peyton Manning, and by that I mean that he is very slow but is mobile enough to ellude the rush and hang in the pocket. With that said, his intangibles are not on Peyton's level at this point, so his lack of mobility is a little more evident. I live out West and follow California high school football a little, and I can tell you that OC played in a very weak league and rarely played the top teams in the state of California or the West Coast for that matter. It is still impressive to have his overall record, but to go undefeated in the MAC by comparison is a lot different than going undefeated in the Big Ten. Anyone who has watched OC play knows that Tyler made this team go. It was no surprise that OC struggled a little after Tyler went down even though they had a great recruit in Jones step up and fill in. This was never more evident than the championship game when Jones, not Clausen, was responsible for leading them to victory. There is a reason why Clausen fell from the top spot in both the ESPN and Scout rankings, and why he is likely to fall even further in the final rankings after his poor championship game performance. With that said, I do think Clausen is going to be a very good college QB, I simple don't see the best high school QB in the past decade when I watch him though. Like I said, take my opinion with a grain of salt, but that is the opinion that I have developed after watching him with my own two eyes.

Is it just me or does everyone have a friend who has dated JR's daughter? She must really get around.

QUOTE(whitesoxfan101 @ Dec 31, 2006 -> 09:28 AM) Claussen is the most overrated, overhyped prospect i've ever seen. He got fat on inferior competition with great talent on his team, and will be a bust just like his brothers. Not a slight towards Notre Dame though, they have recruited well at QB recently and have some other guys that actually are really good and will step in, Demetrius Jones among others. But ol' Jimmy is Ron Pawlus part 2, just hope he doesn't get as much PT as the latter did. I can't believe that I might actually agree with you on something. I am a huge Irish fan, but I do think Claussen is a bit overrated. I have watched three of his games over the past two years and although he has put up some solid numbers in each game, I didn't see the number one rated prospect in high school football. I saw a lot of potential flaws(mobility, arm strength, decision making at times, taking all his snaps out of the shotgun) in his game. I still think he can be a good QB at the college level, but I didn't see the future star that others see. Than again, I am far from been a college/pro scout so take my word with a grain of salt if you like. In regards to his record, you have to first take into consideration the fact that they play in an average league at best and rarely play the top teams in the state of California. Secondly, anyone who followed OC knows that Tyler carried this team and that a great running game allowed Claussen to be an effective passer. OC struggled a little once Tyler went down, but Jones stepped up and showed why he is one of the most highly recruited players in high school football(likely to play safety at SC). Furthermore, anyone who watched the championship game got a first hand view of Claussen's flaws. Time will tell, but I think DD might end up being the better college QB.

QUOTE(dasox24 @ Dec 25, 2006 -> 12:09 AM) Well, I could be wrong, but as of last week, Donald is going to TN. I hate using what I'm about to say, but I was talking to Chris Walker (mentioned in my last post), and he said Donald and him are good buddies, and said that they both want to attend the same school. So, now that Walker has verbaled to Tennessee, he said Donald wants to too. I would be careful with those guarantees! Insiders for ND think he is Irish and insiders for Tenn think he is a Vol. He has stated that his mind is already made up though, so he isn't leaning either way he is either Irish or a Vol at this point. He also stated that no one besides his family knows of his decision at this point, which is why both sides think he is theirs, but neither side knows for sure. Point being is that I highly doubt Walker knows where Donald is going and is simple stating what he would like Donald to do, but at this point it really doesn't matter since Donald's decision is already made. No one knows for sure, so to make a guarantee at this point holds little water and will only set yourself up for disappointment. With that said, my gut tells me that he will end up at Tenn next year(this coming from an Irish fan), but I won't make a guarantee since this is one of the recruits that I am truly not sure about.

QUOTE(whitesoxfan101 @ Dec 23, 2006 -> 04:56 AM) Well that extended rant was pretty pointless. The fact that the waddler can't beat a 2-10 team for any recruits is almost as frightening as Illinois will be with all these players. Oh, and enjoy your slow bad defenses, since that's all you'll see as long as Weis is there. Anybody with talent will be playing for his offense. Is it your goal to attack every poster who isn't a fan of UI? It is clear that you still don't understand how recruiting works. In todays college football you see a lot more parity especially with the restrictions on scholarships. This means that top players will not always pick the traditional powers, especially if they can guarantee themselves a starting spot and/or would rather stay close to home. So you make a big deal out of something that really isn't rare in college football recruiting today(like I said you know very little about recruiting). Furthermore, UI has 3 great players(Benn, Wilson, McCray) and mostly hamburgers after that, so please quit pretending that the UI recruiting class is the 2nd coming. Even with 3 great players, the UI doesn't even crack Rivals top 10 recruiting classes(which just goes to show how bad the rest of the class is). In order to sustain consistent success in college football you need both quality and quantity(which UI is lacking). Plus, it has already been pointed out that Zook has a history of not getting the most out of the talent that he brings in, so how about you wait until the UI wins more than 2 games before you start singing his praise. Finally, I think ND fans will manage just fine considering they will likely end up with the #3 class in the country, which follows the #6 class last year(not to mention a BSC bowl for the 2nd year in a row). In regards to the lack of speed on defense, ND currently has Neal(DE) 4.7, Nagel(LB) 4.55, Paskorz(LB) 4.6, Gray(CB) 4.5, and Smith(S) 4.4 as verballed defensive recruits(possible Tate at CB with 4.4). I would say those are some fast defensive recruits. Not to mention that they are still in the running for other speedy defensive recruits like Martin(DE) 4.55, Donald(LB) 4.6, Edwards(LB) 4.65, MSmith(S/LB) 4.4, Williams(S) 4.65, and Wright(S) 4.5. Maybe you should check your facts before you open your mouth? ps...Learn to accept the fact that some people don't like the UI, but that alone doesn't make them stupid or their points worthless!

QUOTE(whitesoxfan101 @ Dec 16, 2006 -> 07:12 AM) http://dispatch.com/sports-story.php?story...1215-F3-00.html And the "unique situation" thing that happened with Gordon doesn't hold water here. Honestly, hearing this pisses me off far more than the Gordon thing does, although Sanctions is out of his league recruiting against Matta (although who isn't?) Few? Try 700 plus. Might want to do some homework before making egregiously inaccurate statements like that. You can say he did nothing wrong in regards to Gordon (which is fair), but that statement is still amazingly wrong. For starters, when a new coach arrives at a program it changes the perspective of recruits. Gordon wasn't a huge fan of Davis and despite the fact that he was seriously interested in playing for homestate IU, decided that the UI was a better option AT THE TIME. I have little doubt that Gordon would have committed to IU originally if Sampson was the coach a few years back, so I don't consider it to be that bad. The fact is that Gordon wanted to go to IU, and when the circumstances changed(ie: a new coach that the player liked) I think Gordon had every right to reconsider his college choice. Remember, at no point does a verbal commitment constitute a written in stone agreement. I do think Gordon should have decommitted and gone about the process a little differently to be fair to the UI, but in the end he went to the college that he wanted to be at. Why don't UI fans be mature and take the high road for once and move on? Junior, you have no clue what goes on in the recruiting world do you? Let me toot my own horn for a second to help bring a little perspective. Coming out of high school, I was a little regarded football and baseball player who was looking to play at the next level. I was looking at mostly D-two schools because I wasn't that good, but I had a few low level D-one schools interested in me. I took a handful of recruiting visits, and on each one AT LEAST one NCAA recruiting violation was broken. A couple examples include, my recruiting host taking me to a party and pointing to a row of women and asking me which one I wanted. Or an alumni coming up to me a shaking my hand and putting an envelope in my pocket(with 500 dollars) as my host took me on a tour of the facilities(a separate incident at another school). And there are plenty of other examples, but the point is that I was a nobody recruit at a low level D-one schools(not going to mention any names) and they still broke recruiting rules to get me interested in their school. The point being that a few extra calls is like the jaywalking of recruiting violation. Yes, it is against the rules, but in the grand scheme of things it is very petty. That is not to say that two wrongs make a right or that just because other programs break recruiting rules does it make it ok for your program to do so, but I think you need a little perspective before you burn a guy at the stake or call him a worthless human being for making a few extra phone calls. You guys provide little/no examples of how he isn't respected. Saying that four coaches in the conference showed their displeasure with him is like me saying six coaches in the conference think he is a great guy. I am sure that if you polled all the coaches the majority of coaches in the college ranks would say that he is a very good coach and human being. UI fans and Weber need to change their tampax already. It has become clear that you are allowing one incident(that at the absolute worst was boarderline frowned upon) effective your opinion about a guy and compounding the issue by digging for any evidence to help support your weak argument. No need to take your frustrations over the fact that the UI is becoming a mediocre irrelevent program under Weber out on others.

whitesoxfan99, if you call someone a worthless human being I would like to know the justification. I can understand being mad at Sampson about the Gordon situation, or not liking the fact that he made a few too many calls recruiting, but that certainly doesn't make a person a worthless human being. He is one of the most respected coaches in the game, routinely does community service/programs to help kids(especially in poor communities), and has a reputation of being one of the good guys in the game. I think calling him a worthless human being is a little harsh, especially if you are not going to provide justification for your feelings. In regards to ND, I think they have all but locked up the #3 recruiting class behind USC and Texas, and if they can somehow pull a surprise or two(ie: landing McKnight and/or Griffen) they might even knock on the door for the top recruiting class. Griffen made some pretty interesting comments on Scout today making some feel that ND is in better shape than most think, although he did say that he already has his mind made up and I would be completely shocked if he went anywhere but USC. Look for ND to get commitments from O-lineman Devers and Little(only in name) within the next week. Both are 3 star prospects on Rivals, but Little is ranked much higher on both Scout(4-star) and ESPN(top 150). I have to admit that I was a little worried about Weis's ability to recruit at the college level when he first started, but he has easied doubts with likely back-to-back top 5 recruiting classes(last years class was #6 according to Rivals). I love the speed that Weis is adding especially. That has been the knock on ND over the past decade, but they have landed some speedsters in the past two classes(especially this years class). On a side note, I find nothing wrong with what Benn did and tip my cap to Zook for putting in the work needed to get Benn to change his mind. Things like this happen all the time in the college football recruiting game, and it really isn't frowned upon. Even Weis did something similar by continuing to recruit Gray after he committed to South Carolina, and he eventually got him to decommit and commit to the Irish.

QUOTE(whitesoxfan101 @ Dec 14, 2006 -> 05:00 AM) No, he is actually paid by ND, although I don't know what the title is or if it has a lot to do with recruiting. I'll have to look out for the link on that though, haven't seen it online in a while, I last read an article about it in a newspaper. Are you sure about that? I know that he is a huge ND fan and tends to put a positive spin for ND on everything, but I don't think he is actually paid by ND. Because he is so bias for ND I tend to ignore most of the speculation that he writes about and only pay attention to the facts(like Wilson canceling his in-house visit from Weis). "Yeah, wouldn't want him at a school Notre Dame plays against, like Army, Navy, the Air Force, Coast Guard, Stanford, Michigan State, North Carolina. They are already loaded, after all." Is the question that follows that statement, what do all these teams have in common? Answer...more wins than the UI this past season. All joking aside, ND makes their schedule years in advance(like most schools) and they can't help if teams that are strong 5 years ago are all of a sudden weak 5 years down the road when they play them. ND also has many traditional opponents that they pretty much have to play. You will never see ND play a division one-AA or division two team(make all the jokes you want about the service academies - ask Tenn about Air Force and Navy is heading to a bowl game) like a lot of traditional powers. "Sucks you're going to miss out on Martez" I am not going to pretend that not landing Wilson doesn't hurt. Anytime you lose out on a 5 star calibur recruit it hurts. With that said, ND will be fine. They already have two verbals from two highly thought of DE(plus they still have outsides chances with Griffen and Martin). Trattou - Is rated the number thirty-four player in the country(Wilson rated twenty-nine) according to Scout. He is a highly underrated prospect(especially if you use Rivals rankings) who is the star defensive player on maybe the best defense in high school football this year. His videos are simple amazing. He has a sick combo of size, quickness, athletism, and motor/nastiness. Furthermore, he has more size than Wilson at this point(already two-fifty lb) to start from day one at DE. Neal - Another underrated prospect who was flying under the radar until he became ND's first verbal almost a year ago. Since than he has been skyrocketing up the rankings. ESPN has him ranked twenty-five in the country and Scout recently upgraded him to a four-star prospect. Take high school stats with a grain of salt, but this guy put up some amazing stats this past season(one-hundred+ tackles, twenty+ tackles for loss, ten+ sacks), especially for a DE. If Wilson intends to play LB in college, than ND already has two solid LB verbals in Nagel and Paskorz, plus the number one rated LB in the country(according to most recruiting experts) Donald is going to choice between Tenn and ND and Scouts top rated WLB(Lorenzo Edwards) is currently a slight lean to ND. So yes, losing Wilson hurts, but ND still has a very talented class at those two positions. UI needs Wilson a lot more than ND does at this point.

Texas is in the clubhouse with a great recruiting class and are the safe bet to take home the number one rated recruiting class, but it certainly isn't a lock. Both USC and ND have higher rated classes based on the average of the stars of the recruits on rivals. Both ND and USC have small classes at this point as a good majority of blue chip recruits wait until the AA game and/or close to signing day before they announce, and both schools are on the final list of a dozen plus four star+ recruits who have yet to make their decision. For consistency purposes, I will use Rivals rankings. Here is a current comparison of the three schools: Texas - twenty-three total recruits; four five-star; thirteen four-star; five three- star; USC - ten total recruits; three five-star; six four-star; one three-star ND - twelve total recruits; one five star; eight four-star; three three-star Now I stated that IF ND landed both McKnight and Griffen they would have a shot at the top class(this is highly unlikely but ND did make the final three for both players). That would give ND three five-star recruits(only one behind Texas obviously) and eight four-star recruits. Furthermore, the three ND five-star recruits(Clausen, Griffen, and McKnight) are what I call consensus top ten recruits. That means that all three are in the top ten of both the Scout and Rivals rankings, while none of the four Texas five-star recruits are. Have I lost you yet? Here is a list of the remaining recruits(four-star and better) in which ND is either CURRENTLY leading or where there is no clear leader: RB Hughes four-star - Down to ND, UI, OSU; most feel that ND is the current leader WR/CB Tate four-star - It would shock everyone if he went anywhere but ND. OT Romine four-star - Has been quiet on the recruiting front, but ND has as good a shot as anyone. C/OT Summers-Gavin four-star - Down to ND and Cal with no clear favorite. DE Wilson five-star - Down to UI, ND, OSU; UI is probably the slight leader, but came away really impressed with ND after his visit DE Martin four-star - Down to OSU and ND; OSU is probably the leader, but ND has made up ground. DT/DE Peters four-star - Quiet on recruiting front, but ND has as good a shot as anyone. DT Blackwell four-star - Pretty much down to ND and LSU with no clear favorite. LB Donald five-star - Down to ND and Tenn; both sides think they are the favorites so flip a coin. LB/S Edwards four-star - His top three at this point are ND, Mich, and Flor with no clear favorite. CB/S Williams four-star - Down to ND and Mich; I think Mich is a slight favorite. S MSmith four-star - ND and USC favorites at this point; brother went to USC so they are probably favorites S HSmith four-star - Down to ND and Tenn; ND is clear favorite. Realistically, if ND can land half of the players listed above(including one of the two five-star prospects), that would give them four five-star recruits(with the assumption that ND lands Griffen and McKnight - highly unlikely to land both), and thirteen/fourteen four star recruits, so that would give them an almost identical class to Texas(although I think ND would get the edge because their four/five-star recruits are higher ranked). Now is this scenerio likely? No, because I still think Griffen ends up at USC and McKnight at LSU, but it certainly isn't out of the relm of possibilities. If they land one of those two guys, than they would still have an outside shot at the number one class, but it wouldn't be likely. I know that there are a lot of ifs, but Texas clearly doesn't have the top class locked up just yet. USC actually has a much better shot to knock of Texas, and I might go as far as to say that they are the slight favorites for the number one class. Any way that you slice it, these three will likely have the top classes.

QUOTE(thedoctor @ Dec 11, 2006 -> 02:25 PM) nice recruiting weekend for illinois. mark jackson, an offensive lineman out of columbus (via cincinnati) committed to illinois after his visit. jackson also had an offer from michigan among other schools. also, simeon's five-star defensive end martez wilson and bloomington's four-star defensive tackle josh brent have said they will make a co-announcement on dec. 20 at simeon high school. brent declared illinois his leader after this weekend's visit to ohio state. ND has really made up some ground with Wilson over the past two weeks, but I am not sure if it will be enough. Wilson had questions about ND's social life, but apparently came away impressed(ND must have blindfolded him and flew him down to Miami or something) after his visit. With that said, usually when two players announce at the same time they are usually going to the same school, so I wouldn't be surprised if Wilson ends up at UI. ND is a lock for a top ten class, has a very good chance at a top five class, and might even have an outside chance at the number one rated class with some recent news from two top ten players(no matter which recruiting site you use). Everson Griffen(top rated DE in the country), recently stated that he is certainly not a lock for USC and said that they are even with Michigan and ND(everyone thought he was an USC silent). Weis made an in house visit after the USC game and apparently made quite the impression. Griffen is considering making yet another trip to ND on the twenty of Jan. Joe McKnight(top rated athlete/RB), recently stated that ND is in his top three with LSU and USC(everyone thought it was down to those two) and said that he will likely also make a trip to ND on the same date as Griffen. Landing both of these guys(as unlikely as it seems) would almost guarantee ND the top recruiting class in the country, and even landing one of them would give them a good shot. In other news, ND will likely receive a verbal from DT Ian Williams tomorrow. He was once thought to be a Florida lock, but Florida hasn't shown consistent interest as they wait for potential commitments from high rated DT. Williams recently took a visit to ND this past weekend, and came away impressed. He announced his date for Tuesday leading many to believe that he will commit to ND. Given ND's lack of quality DT, Williams is a great get.

My initial reaction to this trade was similar to the majority of Sox fans that didn't like it, but I will attempt to take a step back and look at some of the potential positives of this trade(I haven't read the entire thread so I am not sure if they have been posted). *Sox fans overrate Garcia - solid, proven, middle of the rotation, veterans pitchers are a nice comodity, but I think some fans were making Garcia into a Johan Santana at least in trade value. Let not forget that this guy had a very mediocre season last year, and without a few outstanding starts towards the end of the season would have had pretty bad overall stats. Who knows what to expect from Garcia next year? Is he going to regain his fastball? Is he going to pitch like he did for the first half of the season? Is he going to become a very good pitcher with his new splitter? It is like playing Russian roulette. *Garcia is a FA next year - the fact remains that the Sox could have possible lost Garcia next offseason with nothing to show for in return. It is highly unlikely that they would have given him a relatively long-term deal in the ten-twelve million per year range, which is what he would likely command with the new high prices for FA. There was no guarantee that they would have offered him arbitration and got a few draft picks, so getting a couple of solid young pitchers in return guarantees that they will obviously get something in return. *Young pitching is how you build a perienal contender - With the exception of the Yankees who can pay five starters ten+ million per year, the way to build a perienial contender is by incorporating young pitching. Teams like Oakland and Minnesota have given the recipe needed to constantly contend. Beane wasn't affraid to trade proven veteran like Hudson and Mulder for unproven young pitchers, and because of it Oakland has the young pitching foundation needed to contend for a while. Same goes for Minnesota, although they have mostly developed their own young pitching through their minor league system. Let face the facts, the Sox rotation is getting older and the Sox minor league system has few top pitching prospects, so they need to start somewhere. *Save money - I am not sure whether any cash is involved in the deal, but the Sox will likely save roughly ten million this season with this trade. That money can be used to sign a few FA or could be used to add a big salary player via a trade. See the Carlos Lee trade for an example of how saving money can improve the team. In fact, I think you can make an argument that the trade is Garcia for Floyd, Gonzalez, and a PTBN or two(meaning what and see how that ten million is spent) *Another trade - I am not sure whether the Sox intend on using Floyd in the rotation or starting him in AAA next year, but I wouldn't be surprised to see another big trade before the offseason is over. If the Sox intend on using Floyd as the 5th starter(or are planning on adding other young pitchers to contend for that spot), than you will likely see the Sox move another veteran pitcher. The Sox might also decide to use Floyd and/or Gonzalez as trade bait to add a proven veteran(maybe an outfielder). *Floyd/Gonzalez might surprise - Floyd certainly has the stuff to be a front of the rotation starter, and certainly has the stuff to be a solid starter in the majors next season. Gonzalez becomes the Sox top pitching prospect IMO, and despite his so-so season last year has a ton of potential. And lets not forget that he was only twenty pitching in AA as well. He is well ahead of the learning curve at this point. Point being, we should look at the positives and negatives of this trade before we come to the conclusion of whether it is a good trade or bad trade. As always, only time will determine if this is a good trade or not.

QUOTE(VAfan @ Dec 1, 2006 -> 08:35 PM) "Barring a trade making sense for the White Sox in the present and helping in the future, Williams will bring his same starting five to Spring Training in Tucson in February. " I was going to start a separate post on this point, but I'll confine my comments to this thread for the moment. I see no reason why the Sox should make moves this offseason unless they will help the team make another run at a World Series in 2007. I don't think we should sell out for 2007, but I also don't see dumping skilled veterans to embark on some rebuilding plan that will clearly weaken our team next year. That's one huge reason why I thought the Crede+Garcia for Figgins+Santana deal made no sense for us. We could significantly weaken our team going into next season without appreciably helping us in the long run. Now, if the right deal came along for Vazquez -- and I don't think any deals for pitchers will materialize until the FA pitching market is settled and all the major arms are signed -- I think it would make sense to move him. But that's because I believe replacing Vazquez with McCarthy in 2007 would help us NEXT YEAR. I have been over this on the LAA trade thread, but I don't think the purposed trade hurts the Sox in the short-run. Stats and common knowledge suggest that Santana would likely have the better season when compared to Garcia, so I think you upgrade the rotation a little. I also don't think the Figgins-Crede tradeoff would be as significant as most people think(even though I would assume that Figgins would be in the outfield so it wouldn't be a direct comparison). The overall offensive stats were very good last year, but they hide the fact that the offense was very inconsistent. I think adding a couple high BA/OBP type players(speed would also be an added bonus) would significantly reduce the inconsistency that relying solely on the HR causes. In that case, despite Figgins down year in 2006, he is the type of player that the Sox are looking for(when compared to Crede). Furthermore, the trade frees up some money and still leaves the Sox with a starter to deal, which can be used to address other weaknesses and improve the team in the short-run via trade or FA(possible find a solid replacement at 3rd). Obviously, in the long-run it would improve the Sox and provide a cornerstone to allow them to contend for years to come. With all that said, I highly doubt the trade happens. Rarely under the KW regime does a purposed trade get talked about this much and actually happen. In regards to the above article and quotes, I agree with most that it is just posturing and I believe that it is highly likely that a starter is moved at some point this offseason.

In a big surprise, the number two rated all purpose back in the nation - Armando Allen - is going to announce for ND over Florida tomorrow. Almost everyone assumed that he was a Florida lock after questions about his ability to EE at ND, but Weis went to visit him the other day and that was the icing on the cake. Before this season, a lot of people thought that Allen was the best high school back in the country. Unfortunately, he was seriously injuried early in the season and missed most of his senior year. The guy has amazing speed with some reports saying sub four-four fourty time. A great get for ND.

I think it would be a step sideways if the Sox turned around and used either Santana or BMac to get Crawford. I am a huge Crawford fan, and he might be the best bargain in baseball given the contracts that other potential leadoff hitters are getting this offseason, but you win championships with pitching. Santana and BMac would be a great foundation to build around considering that they both have good stuff with SOME major league success, they are both young, years away from FA, and will be relatively cheap over the next couple of seasons(allowing the Sox to spend money to address other weaknesses). Besides, if the Sox get Figgins as well that essentially addresses the LF(or CF) and leadoff hitter need. Now if the Sox were to get Cabrera(hope not) or one of their relievers instead of Figgins, than I think Crawford might be a reasonable option, but not at the cost of either Santana or BMac(which is obviously what TB would want). Also, I seriously hope that the Sox don't intend on playing Figgins at 3rd if they do get him. He was an absolute butcher last season. I am curious to see which GM thinks they are getting the raw end of the purposed deal since the reports are that other players would be involved. I personally think the deal slightly favors the Sox, and most Angel fans HATE(not a strong enough word) the deal and would call for their GM's head if he made the deal.

Anyone who says that the Sox are getting ripped off with a Crede/Garcia for Santana/Figgins deal is a classic example of overvaluing the Sox players. I can maybe understand the argument that it is a wash, but I think it would be a great deal for the Sox. At the absolute worse, it will be a wash in the short-term and a great deal in the long-run. Santana is one of the top young pitchers in baseball. It is extremely rare to pry away a pitcher of his calibur. At twenty-three, he would have had the best ERA among the Sox starters last year, plus his peripheral stats were very good(BAA, WHIP, OPS, HR/IP, BB/SO). If you asked me who will likely have a better season next year(based on ERA), I would say Santana. If we learned anything, we learned that pitching wins championships, and a pitcher with ace material, who is coming off a very solid season, and is all of twenty-three are extremely rare to come by. Not to mention the fact that he has four years before he becomes a FA(compared to one for Garcia), is making next to nothing(and will probably not make ten million+ until he becomes a FA), and he is seven years younger. Obviously, Crede is a better player than Figgins, but I still think some of you guys are overvaluing Crede a little. Yes, he is very good defensive(just below GG standard in my book), has proven he can hit for some power, and showed he can hit for some average last season, but he isn't perfect and might not be a better fit for the team. The Sox put up great overall offensive numbers if you look at the season as a whole, but they were inconsistent offensively. They got back to their living on the HR ways of the past. So you saw a lot of nine-seven wins followed by two-one loses. Overall that comes to a five run average per game(looks good overall), but hides the inconsistency. I think the Sox need to add one or two high average/high OBP type players(it would be nice if they had speed as well) to help decrease the offense inconsistency. Despite his numbers last year, Figgins has proven to be a solid average/OBP guy with great speed opposed to Crede. I will miss Crede's D at third, and hope that the Sox don't intend on starting Figgins at third. It does potentially open a hole at third, but the Sox can address the problem inhouse(Cintron, Mack, or Fields), OR use one of the other starters to trade for a thirdbase man, OR use the money saved in the deal to sign a FA. Finally, lets not forget that Crede has chronic back problems, is in line for a significant pay increase, and has Mr. Boras as his agent(will probably lose him to FA soon). Finally, the Sox still have the flexibility to make other moves. They free up some payroll to potentially add a quality player or two via FA. They still have one veteran starter they can move to pick up good prospects or address other weaknesses. Also, in order to consistently stay competitive you need to continuely switch in younger players for veterans without losing a step and this deal accomplishes that. Trust me, if this deal went through, Sox fans will be saying that it was an absolute steal two-three years from now.

QUOTE(Palehosefan @ Nov 9, 2006 -> 03:07 PM) Little is a pretty horrendous WR and schools know it from watching him try to play the position in camps, as he has NO hands whatsoever. Schools will tell him anything he wants to hear to get him signed and on campus, but he will end up on the defensive side of the ball. I still believe it will be ND as well, but I know there is a long ways to February as well. I can't say that I have seen him play in person, but the video I have seen of him would argue otherwise. The one problem he has is that he has limited experience at WR because he has played all over(QB, RB, WR, LB, SS) the field in high school, but he certainly looked like a very good WR in the video I saw of him. Furthermore, a so-called "recruiting expert" from NC called him a slightly bigger, more athletic version of Benn, without the great hands or route running ability at this point due to a lack of experience at this point. I guarantee you that he will play WR no matter which school he picked. On a side note, there is a long time from now until signing period, so I am not that confident in his verbal. This was a kid who was truely torn between two schools, and now that UNC has a big name coach he might get a ton of pressure from Davis and local friends/family to stay in NC. He sounds like a great kid and great football talent, so I am happy to have him aboard for the time being though.

QUOTE(Palehosefan @ Nov 9, 2006 -> 02:42 AM) Greg Little also announces tomorrow. Final two of UNC and Notre Dame. I've heard that ND is the favorite right now, but he made some interesting comments about Butch Davis today, so we will see. He will be a great LB for someone. According to an insider on the Carolina rivals website, Little was on a local Carolina radio station and was asked if he had been in contact with Butch Davis or if hiring Butch Davis would affect his decision, and he replied NO to both questions. Take it with a grain of salt, but I am pretty sure that Little will be Irish after tomorrow. Also, he will be a WR. While I would love to see him at either safety or linebacker, he has stated many times that he wants to play WR and would exclude teams that didn't intend on playing him at WR. UI fans, congrats on getting Benn. Some pretty reliable insiders are stating that he will be Illini after tomorrow. I still don't think you guys get Austin though.

ND gets a verbal from 3* OL Nwankwo from Florida. He is an underrated prospect who has a good mix of size and athleticism. It is a bit of a surprise considering that most thought he would end up at Florida, so it is nice to pick him up(especially after a 2 month dry spell for ND). In other recruiting news, rumor has it that Greg Little(4* athlete from NC) could announce as soon as tomorrow. He is currently deciding between UNC and ND. I am pretty sure that he will end up at ND after a good unofficial visit last weekend, and no coach at UNC for next year. If ND does get Little, combined with Kamara(jumped to #31 rated overall in the most recent Rivals top 100), it will soften the blow of losing out on Benn(if he doesn't go to ND).

QUOTE(THEWOOD @ Nov 4, 2006 -> 11:47 PM) When I wrote that post their defense WAS impressive. They kept holding Louisville to FGs. For the 2nd half that is another story. Yeah they blew them out in the 4th quarter....weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!! Also its freakin UNC and ND was at home. I really think ND will have a hard time beating AirForce. OSU is certainly the best team in the country, but no team is immune from a bad game. It is funny that you talk trash about the ND's performance, yet OSU was outgained and needed to hold on against a two-eight UI team(although they have played better of late). ND's win, as unimpressive as it was(although they did outplay them and probably could have ran the score up in the fourth quarter if they left their starters in), was probably more impressive than the OSU's win. Just goes to show you that anything can happen on any given Saturday. Other powers, like Michigan and Florida also struggled(more so than ND) against mediocre(AT BEST) opponents, and yet people still focus on ND. ND isn't a national championship calibur team, but they are a very good team with a few flaws(which is what keeps them from challenging for a national championship). In regards to AF, another power(Tenn) struggled against AF and only beat them by one AT HOME, so does that mean that ND will be better than Tenn if they go to Colorado Springs and win by more than one? Or should we just focus on ND when they don't blowout a team that they should? Bias much??? ALL the top teams have some question mark type performances on their schedule, yet people only focus on ND's so-so performances.

QUOTE(whitesoxfan99 @ Nov 4, 2006 -> 09:39 PM) Except he says that Gordon was not considered to be the TOP not one of the top players in the country until he played with Rose. He never says Gordon wasn't one of the top players because that would be stupid. Give it up man(before you show any more sore loser syndrome), the difference between being ranked the number five rated player versus being ranked the number one rated player is so insignificant that it isn't even funny(especially if there isn't a consensus number one rated player) and to suggest that it is a big difference is just idiotic. Gordon has always been in the top 5 and has fluctuated within the top 5 over the years. For the record, he is currently the number two rated player in the country(according to rivals and scouts). The fact is Gordon was a great player before he played with Rose, and was a great player while playing with Rose. Let it go and learn to accept mediocre at UI.

QUOTE(qwerty @ Nov 4, 2006 -> 08:57 PM) Plain and simple he has done nothing well enough in his career to warrant a roster spot with a perennial playoff team year in year out if they play their cards right. Doing such would not be having luis terrero on the major league roster. Where you two timo backers? How was it enduring two full seasons of a scrub when there where better and cheaper options out there. With terrero we have a cheaper option... but he is clearly not an upgrade over anyone who was on the roster last season ( whoo plays a little defense... and i do mean slightly above average). Be willing to bet anything that he will never be on the white sox major league roster. As aboz said... he has spring training filler written all over him. In fairness to Terrero, he has under 500 career AB spread out over four seasons. I would say that is a rather limited sample size to determine whether a player is major league calibur or not. Is he going to be a superstar? Of course not, maybe not even an everyday player, but he has the skills needed to be a quality backup outfielder. As for comparing him to Timo, Timo did absolutely nothing average or better. Terrero, as you stated, plays solid D(legit CF) and runs well at the very least. He showed that he can hit a little at AAA last year, so the verdict isn't completely in on that part of his game. If the Sox intend on using him as an everyday player, than they are in trouble. However, if they look to have him on the bench as a solid CF option(a clear weakness from a team that is supposely a perennial playoff team), than the Sox should be fine and might even have a diamond in the rough. Like I said before, it is a cheap low risk move that might or might not turn into anything.

QUOTE(whitesoxfan99 @ Nov 4, 2006 -> 08:00 PM) Except if you are reading that as Gordon only being a talent because he played with Rose you are an idiot. All he is saying is that Gordon got most of the hype and moved up in the rankings when he played with Rose. That is true. Which is untrue. Gordon has always been considered one of the top players in the country since most scouting companies came out with their initial rankings for this recruiting class a few years ago(top ten). If you follow Indiana high school basketball you cetainly have known about Gordon for a while. He was always considered the top player in the state(for this recruiting class) for years, and that includes a state that currently has 7 players in the Rivals top 70 at this point. Saying that he wasn't one of the top players in the country until he played with Rose is insane, and shows that this guy knows nothing or very little about recruiting. In which case you shouldn't make comments about things you know almost nothing about. So yes, his comments are completely bias and tant his reputation in regards to high school basketball knowledge IMO.