whitesox61382

QUOTE (VAfan @ Jun 7, 2009 -> 04:51 PM) I'm a firm believer in the RC27 way of rating a player's offensive value. It is more refined than OPS because it includes the value of speed. Getz's RC27 is 3.84. That ranks him at the very bottom rung of major league 2Bs. I see no prospect of Getz's numbers getting much better because he has no power -- not even much hope of hitting a lot of doubles or triples -- and therefore little hope of ever developing a high OBP because pitchers will not fear him. He doesn't even seem to use the whole field when he hits. The hits I've seen him get are all pulled into RF. That suggests his BA will also never get much better. Gordon Beckham is vastly better in just about every way to Getz. And Jayson Nix is vastly better as a utility guy because he can play far more positions than Getz. So I just see no room for him. As for light hitting guys with speed, I'm just not enamored that much of them. They have low RC27 totals for the most part, which means that even with their speed they are not increasing the runs scored per game, they are dragging it down. But in the Cell, the Sox certainly cannot afford multiple light hitters. If we're going to keep one, I'll go with Scott Podsednik, who's at 4.38 runs per game, which is better than any CF we have. I love your assumption that pitchers aren't going to walk him because he doesn't have power. There are literally dozens of major leaguers who don't have power yet draw a healthy number of walks. As good as major leaguer pitchers are they cant continue to throw great pitch after great pitch for strike. Eventually they either throw a cookie in the middle of the plate or a ball, especially against players with great plate discipline who have a tendancy to foul off pitches. I think we saw a small sample of Getz's upside in the beginning of the year, and it is no coincidence that the Sox were winning when they had a .300 hitter, who was getting on base, and had good speed. As others have pointed out, power is essential, but you need high OBP guys to get on base to turn the solo HRs into 3-run HRs. Furthermore, you need high average/good speed guys to help manufacture runs when the team isn't hitting HRs. The Sox have a lot of young potential power hitters in the majors and minors (Quentin, Ramirez, Beckham, Allen, Flowers, the Cuban tank, even Fields). They need some high OBP/speed guys to compliment and maximize the potential of the HR. I am tied of the Sox being among the league leaders in solo HRs and having an inconsistent offense that relies too much on the HR. They need versatility and Getz offers that, especially if he can play the way he did before his injury.

Let me start by saying that it is a good thing that VAfan isn't part of the Sox front office. 1) Sample size - as others have already pointed out, you can't make a full judgement on a player based on 146 career ABs or even 601 ABs (Field's career total). If teams gave up on young players after a quarter of a season, than half of the current superstars in the majors wouldn't exist. Every now and again you get a player like Pujols who comes into the majors and produces from day 1, but most young players go through a learning curve. Point being, using either players career averages and assuming that they are going to continue to produce at that level over the remainder of their career is simple foolish. Let both players play on a regular basis and see what they can do. 2) One dimensional offense - have you been a Sox fan for the past decade? If so, than you will know that one of the Sox biggest flaws has been a one dimensional offense that relies too much on the HR. I know their overall offensive numbers look solid, but what is hidden in the numbers is inconsistency. The Sox have a tendancy to win 11-2 only to come back the next day and lose 2-1. Overall, the numbers look reasonable (in that scenario the Sox average 6 runs a game), but the overall result is an inconsistent .500 calibur team. I am not suggesting that the Sox need to get rid of their power hits and fill the lineup with .300, slap hitters, with good speed, and no power (especially in USCF), but they need some versatility and the ability to manufacture runs in those pitching duals when the HR isn't flying out. The Sox have finished 1st or 2nd in the AL in HRs from 2004 to 2008 in every year expect for one. Is it a coincidence that the one year they didn't finish in the top two they won the World Series? They still hit a lot of HRs, but they found ways to produce runs when they weren't hitting HRs. Fields is in the mold of those one dimensional all or nothing power hitters. IMO, the Sox not to limit those types of players in the lineup. 3) Complete player - similar to the argument above, the Sox need to find more complete players. I look at the 5 tools, except I substitute "plate discipline" for "arm". IMO, "arm" should fall under defense. One of the more underrated catagories and stats, especially for young hitters, is plate discipline and none of the other 4 catagories takes into consideration plate discipline. Lets compare the two players in the 5 catagories and you tell me which is the more complete player. Average - Fields hit .275 in 1685 career minor league ABs and .235 in his 601 career major league ABs. The scouting report on Fields is that he is never going to hit for a high average. If he hits .250+ at the major league level, than Sox fans should be happy. Getz hit .286 in 1428 career minor league ABs (hit below .299 only once in his 4 seasons) and .250 in 146 career major league ABs. The scouting report on Getz is that he should be able to hit in the .280-.290 range at the major league leve. Advantage Getz. Power - Fields hit 62 HR and a .458 SLG in the minors and 26 HR and .416 SLG in the majors (601 AB). Fields has good power potential and has displayed the ability to be a 20+ HR hitter at the major league level. Getz hit 17 HR and a .381 SLG in the minors and 0 HR and a .306 SLG in the majors. Getz is not a power guy. He might hit 5-10 HRs a year at the major level. Clear advantage Fields. Plate discipline - Fields draws a decent amount of walks, but he is a lock for 150+ SO if he gets a full season worth of ABs (550+). Getz has always had good plate discipline. Last year was the first year he had more SO than BB. He doesn't draw a ton of walks, but a healthy total. Advantage Getz. Defense - Fields has made some improvements defensively, but he is still a liability at 3B. You can even make an argument that he is one of the worst 3B in the game defensively. He will be lucky to be adequate at 3B and will likely have to move to DH (or possible 1B or LF). Getz is solid defensively and even above average at 2B. He lacks the arm to make the difficult plays in the hole, and that will likely keep him from being a great defensive 2B/GG calibur. Advantage Getz. Speed - Fields runs pretty well for a big power hitters, but his speed is average at best. Before his knee operations he could even snag double digit bags, but he doesn't have that potential any more. Getz isn't a speedster or a great base stealer, but he does have above average speed and has the potential to snag 20 bags. Advantage Getz. Personally, I don't know if either are everyday players (we will only find out if the Sox let them play on a regular basis), but I think Getz is the more complete player. I think both have rather limited upsides. Fields due to his struggles to make consistent contact, which is never going to to away. And Getz because of his lack of power. Only time will tell. At this point in both players careers it is irrational to draw firm conclusions though.

QUOTE(NorthSideSox72 @ Jan 17, 2008 -> 05:20 PM) When Rogers says "shows signs", I assumed that meant its a guess by Phil that he'd eventually do that. But looking at the numbers, he did indeed play 68 games in the OF last season, compared to 54 at 2B. Nice catch YAS. He was moved to CF because he is an error machine at 2B. His defense at 2B has always been considered a weakness even in college. The Sox brass feels that he has the athletism to transition to CF, and be a plus offensive player with 20/20 potential.

QUOTE(SoxPride56 @ Jan 10, 2008 -> 07:09 PM) Which makes you think... If you go back to post 125, there was a guy from WSI that said his source told him the deal would happen at the end of Jan. Maybe there is something to that. I know he was right on about Quientin, so maybe its legit. Anyway, here is the post that I am talking about. If the Sox got Figgins, Kendrick, Santana, Speier, and Wilson for Konerko, Crede, and a prospect, than I would s*** my pants. Unfortunately, there is no way that the Sox will get that package. 1) The Angels were reluctant to include Kendrick in a deal with the Marlins for Cabrera and view him as pretty close to untouchable(most Angel fans I talked to wouldn't trade Kendrick straight up for Konerko and Crede). 2) This trade would leave the Angels with a logjam at both 1B(Konerko, Kotchman, Morales) and OF(Guerrero, Anderson, Hunter, Willits, Rivera, GMJ). I have to believe that any trade involving Konerko would have to include at least 1 or 2 of the players listed above(obviously not including Guerrero, Anderson, or Hunter). 3) Why would a contending team trade 4 key major league players for marginal improvements at 2 positions that they currently have adequate players? A deal might happen between the Angels and Sox(although highly unlikely), but it will not be the trade listed above. Here is a deal that might work for both teams: Sox get: Santana, Speier, GMJ, Morales, and possible cash(for GMJ contract) Angels get: Konerko and Crede The Sox get a legit CF who can leadoff, one of the top set-up guys in baseball, a young starter with upside, and a potential 1B of the future. The Angels get an upgrade at 1B and 3B, get rid of GMJ, and avoid a logjam.

I just don't think the Sox have enough to land Bedard. Besides, this is simple speculation from some fans imagination, but I will play along. Here is a realistic 3 way trade that would likely work for everyone. Sox gets: 2B Roberts(Baltimore) RP Bradford OR Walker(Baltimore) SP Santana(LA) CF GMJ(LA) LA gets: 1B Konerko(Chicago) 3B Crede(Chicago) Baltimore gets: 2B Richar(Chicago) SP Broadway(Chicago) 1B Kockman(LA) Why it works: Sox - They address all of their remaining weaknesses. They get a leadoff hitter, an upgrade in CF, a veteran reliever, and a young starter with upside for the bottom of the rotation. LA - They get the big bat to protect Vlad, a slight upgrade at 3B if Crede is healthy, and they get rid of GMJ's contract. Baltimore - They get 3 young major league ready players for 2 veterans. Now back to reality.

QUOTE(southsideirish71 @ Dec 4, 2007 -> 11:01 PM) And how exactly are you looking at what we are supposedly giving up and saying ....hell I will hedge my bets with that because thats what a championship is built around. I like Danks. I like Gio. But those 2 dont scream championship. If we can get this done, and not give up DLS. s*** its a steal. DLS >>>> Danks or Gio. I am not saying the asking price is too much, in fact, I am saying the complete opposite in terms of talent alone(great deal for the Sox). However, you win championships with pitching and in most cases pitching that you develop. I am not saying that Danks or Gio are going to be future aces, but they project to be key members of the Sox rotation next year. The Sox currently have Danks, Gio, Broadway, Floyd, and Egbert fighting for 2 spots. Having 5 decent options will give the Sox a better chance of finding 1-2 guys that can be solid starters at the major league level(classic law of averages). Furthermore, it gives them options if the 1st or 2nd guy they pick doesn't pan out. By trading away 2-3 of these guys you are essentially putting all your eggs in one basket and saying that the 2 guys that are left after this trade are the #4 and #5 starters, and if they don't pan out than the Sox are out of luck and in for a long season(no matter how many runs they score). Finally, you have to factor in the contract that Cabrera will likely get. If a 32 year old Hunter is worth 18M/yr, than how much is a 26 year old Cabrera going to be worth 2 years from now? 25M/yr? 30M/yr? Unless the Sox have the payroll of the Yankees or Red Sox, they can't afford to have 1/5th of their payroll tied up in one player. Texas proved that point after they signed ARod, who is probably a better all around player than Cabrera. Who many winning seasons did ARod produce in Texas, yet alone playoff teams? The unfortunate fact of the matter is that fans are often blinded by the prospects of getting a great player, and they tend to throw logic by the wayside. If you are interested in watching a great player on a daily basis, than by all means encourage a trade for Cabrera that includes 2/5th of the Sox projected rotation. If you are interested in watching the Sox make another ran at a championship, than be happy that the Sox will likely not land Cabrera and hope that KW has a couple solid moves left in his pocket to address the remaining weaknesses(ala 2005).

QUOTE(Tony82087 @ Dec 4, 2007 -> 10:54 PM) I need to make this clear. You do WHATEVER it takes to get Cabrera. He is a 24 year old HOF candidate, and all indications say he would love to play for the Sox and Ozzie. You get this guy locked up for years, and you have a Frank Thomas type hitter to build around. I see, so you want the Sox to become the Texas Rangers when they had ARod? Giving up the future and present for one great player doesn't put championship banners on the flag pole, but I guess watching one great player is more exciting for the casual fan. In all seriousness, doesn't pitching and defense win championships?

I would hate to lose GEO Gonzalez and the right handed version of John Danks. In all seriousness, Cabrera is a great player and certainly worth that asking price, but I thought you were suppose to trade from areas of strength to address areas of weakness? The Sox currently have 2 3B(you can make an argument that Uribe could qualify as well at this point), and a questionable back end of their rotation after trading Garland, so does trading 2 additional starters(potentially) for another 3B make sense? They must have a lot of faith in guys like Broadway and Egbert or another move in the making for a starter if they make this trade. Personally, I would be happy with KW getting a CF that can leadoff(Fukudome being my personal #1 option followed by Crisp) and moving Crede for another bullpen arm(maybe to LA for Proctor) and calling it an offseason. The Sox would have improved their offense and defense by adding Cabrera, Fukudome/Crisp, and Quentin, while adding two proven bullpen arms(Linebrink and Proctor), and only worsened the rotation slightly(assuming Danks and Contreras show some improvement next year). Furthermore, KW really hasn't mortgaged the future by trading away most of the Sox young talent or by overpaying for a FA in my scenario. Just my opinion though.

I haven't read all the post in this thread so this might have been covered, but I just wanted to add a few things. For starters, I think this is a very good trade with the potential to be great. I am a huge Carter fan, but Quentin has the same type of upside and is major league ready. Let me stat that I live in Tucson and follow both the DBacks and Sidewinders(AAA team) pretty closely. Most people in AZ thought that Quentin would have a breakout year in 2007. He was always a top 100 calibur prospect who put up big numbers in the minors, and had a solid showing in a short stint in the majors in 2006. Unfortunately, he was bothered by a shoulder injury during ST. He didn't go on the DL though and tried to play through the injury with little luck. He finally went on the DL in July and appeared to recover from the injury. However, he only received 16 AB in the majors before being opted back to AAA. Finally healthy, he put up big numbers in AAA before he was recalled again in Sept. Conclusion, I firmly believe that his poor 2007 major league season was a product of him trying to play through his shoulder injury. I think that this guy still has .300 BA, .400 OBP, .500 SLG potential and could be an absolute steal. I think it was a perfect time to trade for him as well since he stock was at an all time low. Furthermore, the DBacks didn't have any room for him after resigning Brynes and deciding that Upton's future is now(along with Young in CF). I think many Sox fans will be pleasantly surprised by Quentin, and I think Mags is a pretty good comparison in terms of production potential.

QUOTE(winninguglyin83 @ Oct 5, 2007 -> 02:32 AM) our best prospect is battling leadoff for Arizona. I begin with that. i'd rank our system below average, worse than that at the top three levels. I have hopes for Shelby. but let's compare it to a decade ago, when we were producing Carlos Lee and Maggio, a few years after Mike Cameron arrived. Don't see any hitters/outfielders like those guys anywhere in sight. guys like Stumm, Borchard, Hummel, Ring and others have simply been atrocious. Let me start by saying that Carter has a long way to go, but it is interesting that you brought up the names of Lee and Ordonez because they were at the exact same level as Carter at this point in their careers. Lee age 20 at low A ball: .313/8/70 .772 Ordonez age 20 at low A ball: .294/11/69 .784 Carter age 20 at low A ball: .291/25/93 .905 It is worth noting that Ordonez struggled after this season hitting .238 in high A ball and .263 in AA the following year before having a breakout year in AAA(.329/14/90 .840 OPS) - most people didn't get excited about Maggs until his season at AAA. Lee was very consistent and hit at each level through the minors - scouts/Sox thought pretty highly of his bat from day 1. I am not suggesting that Carter will develop into an Ordonez or Lee, but at this stage he is probably ahead of them in development. From an average standpoint he is comparable to Ordonez and only slightly worse than Lee. From a power standpoint he is significantly better at this stage(which is the reason why scouts and people who follow the minors are excited about Carter). He also drew quite a few more walks than Lee and Ordonez at this point in their careers. He did strikeout more as well(one of the few concerns). Point being, Carter is certainly a guy to watch and someone to get excited about. He still has a long way to go and consistency through the minors is very important, but the early results from Carter are extremely promising. If Carter produces another year like this past season, than he will almost certainly be a top 100 prospect. I also think DLS is a guy to get excited about as well. He has the combination of ace type stuff with production to match his skill. Like Carter, if he has another dominating season next year he will also find himself of the top 100 prospects list. I also mentioned a handful of other sleepers to keep an eye on as they progress. Most of them were a little old for the level that they were at so you need to be careful comparing their stats, but they are certainly worth watching closely. Overall, I would rank the system around 20th overall(give or take 1-2 spots).

QUOTE(WHITESOXRANDY @ Oct 4, 2007 -> 04:03 PM) I'm just wondering what you guys think of this. How many of the other 29 teams would you esimate would be willing to trade their minor league system for the Sox ? I'm guessing maybe 1 or 2. I don't think anyone is claiming that the Sox have one of the top 5 minor league systems in baseball. With that said, the Sox system is certainly heading in the right direction(really only one way to head from the bottom). Last year the Sox minor league systems was one of the 5 worst in baseball(could make an argument that it was the worst). Thanks to some offseason traded(see Gonzalez), breakout years(see Carter, DLS, etc), and what appears to be a very good draft(see Poreda, etc) the Sox minor league system has taken a pretty big step forward and might even be in the 15-20 range overall. So I guess the answer to your question is about 10 teams would probably be willing to trade their minor league system for the Sox. The Sox upper minor league system isn't that strong, but it did produce some positive contributions from prospects like Fields, Owens, and Richar. Furthermore, the Sox have 3 solid looking pitching prospects who appear to be ready to contribute next year(Broadway, Gonzalez, and Egbert) and while none of those guys have ace stuff they have the potential to be solid middle of the rotation starters(Gonzalez having a little higher upside). The Sox lower minor league system is where the strength lies. In fact, I bet only a handful of teams would NOT trade their low A ball AND advanced rookie ball rosters for the Sox. They had a handful of all star potential players have breakout years(Carter, DSL, Shelby) and had a handful of sleepers to keep an eye on(Allen, Sanchez, Marrero, Moreno, Martinez). Plus this years draft was a big success based on early indications. Poreda put up impressive numbers(has no control what level he starts at). Miranda instantly became the Sox best SS prospect(not necessarily saying much). Ely was very impressive(although I am not a huge fan of his). Gallagher, my sleeper for the 2007 draft, put up some guady numbers. Mabee might be a closer of the future with his dominating numbers. Plus you have a handful of talented high school players who just got their feet wet(Griffith and Gilbert). Point being, while the Sox minor league system is average at best right now it is certainly heading in the right direction. If some of these lower minor league players can continue to produce as they progress up the system, than the Sox might be in the top 5 before too long.

Here is kind of a random name, but what about taking a flyer on Maicer Izturis? I think he could be a nice stopgap option with the potential to be a permanant option. He is only 26 so he is young and has room for improvement. He had himself a very solid year last year in 352AB. He hit for average(.293), showed decent pop for a middle infielder(5HR, 21 2B, .412SLG), showed very good plate discipline(38BB/35SO - .365OBP), and he runs well(14SB). He has followed that up with another solid season: average(.282), pop(5HR, 16 2B, .404 SLG), plate discipline(29BB/33SO), and speed(6/7SB). I think he would be exactly what the Sox need - good average, solid OBP, put the ball into play/handles the bat well, good speed, decent pop. The one potential knock against him is that he hasn't played much SS recently(only 6 starts over the past 2 years). It is his natural position, he does have 47 starts at SS over his career, he does have the range and arm to play there, and he has been very good defensively this year(only 3 errors combined between 3B, SS, and 2B in 75 starts). The question becomes, will LA be willing to give up such a versatile player and if so what would it cost?

QUOTE(hitlesswonder @ Sep 12, 2007 -> 02:35 AM) Are there any decent position prospects at either GF or Bristol? Gallagher obviously had a good year, but he's 22. That's not to write him off, but it's not like a he dominated a league that was older than him... There are actually quite a few intriguing position prospects in GF. Gallagher OF - He was my sleeper pick from this years draft. A guy that doesn't have the tools that scouts drool over, but a guy who gets the most out of his ability, plays hard, and put up some big numbers at Duke. As a 21 year old 4 year college player from a major conference he probably should have started in A ball, but you can't control where you are placed in the system. With that said, he put up some impressive numbers in GF. He hit for average(.332), showed good pop(9HR .534SLG), showed very good plate discipline(35BB/38SO - a big key in my book), showed decent speed(7SB), and played solid defense(might even be an adequate CF at the major league level - which would drastically increase his value). He is a guy that should climb the system pretty fast, especially if he continues to produce at this rate. Look for him to FINISH next year at either Wiston-Salem or possible even Birmingham. Sanchez OF - This is the son that Chicago sportswriter Rogers never had. I remember that he was like a kid in a candy store when describing him. He certainly has the tools that scouts drool over: cannon for an arm(handful of outfield assists), great power potential(7HR .544SLG - nice being 6'6), and very good speed(18SB and 10 3B). He had a big year in GF after really struggling in A ball, but at 21 he really needs to get over the A ball hurdle next year. His plate discipline(18BB/59SO) or lack there of, is the one reason why I am not very optimistic about Sanchez. If he can gradually improve in that area he has all the potential in the world to develop into a legit top prospect. Marrero OF - This is a potential sleeper that I am keeping an eye on. He just turned 21 so he is about where he should be in turns of level, and he had himself a very nice season. He hit for a solid average(.305), showed very good power potential(12HR, 21 2B, .561SLG), showed very good plate discipline(36BB/43SO), is a lefty, and showed versatility in playing multiple positions. I don't know too much about him, but he is certainly a guy I am going to keep an eye on as he progresses. Retherford 3B - I don't know too much about him and he turned 22 this season, which is a little old for advanced rookie ball, but he did have a very good season. He hit for average(.318), showed impressive power(13HR, 30 2B, .613 SLG), decent plate discipline(24BB/45SO), and reports are that he played solid D as well. He will need to progress through the system quickly to be considered a legit prospect worth keeping an eye on. ChiSox Sonix - Jose Martinez is a guy I mentioned a couple months back. He is certainly a guy that I am going to keep an eye on. He just turned 19, is 6'5, has a very good arm, has good power potential(7HR), and very good speed(12SB). His plate discipline was so-so, but he did show good discipline in Dom league.

In regards to the SS hole, what about Cabrera from LAA? I know that the Angels have tried to move him in the past and probably wouldn't ask for too much if the Sox were willing to pay all/most of his remaining contract. I think he would work perfect in the #2 hole and could possible leadoff if needed. He is usually good for a .270-.280 average(.306 this year), he has decent gap power(.400 SLG), he has solid plate discipline(doesn't draw many walks but has never SO more than 64 times in a season), he runs well(usually good for about 20SB at an 80% clip), and he is still above average defensively. Renteria is another option and would be an upgrade over Cabrera, but would cost more in a trade. I would be willing to take a chance on Greene(if the asking price isn't too high) and hope that a move to a great hitters park would really benefit him(based on his home/away splits that would be the case). If the Sox could get a .270/20-25/75-85 .330/.470/.800 stat line from Greene, than I would be happy. Although that would mean the Sox would have to fill the leadoff spot from one of the outfield positions(possible Owens if he can continue to hit .280+ and draw a few more walks).

QUOTE(SoxFan77 @ Aug 8, 2007 -> 07:07 PM) 1) No one is going to take on 20mil in payroll for a pitcher who has an ERA in the high 6's and last good outing was in June. If the old fart can turn something out this season and pitches decent to where he looks like a MLB Pitcher then you have a shot. As of right now no one is going to trade for him unless Jerry goes against the norm and does something he never does.. Pay for Jose to leave 2) Look I was very happy when we signed Dye to replace Maggs in 05, but his time has past. He is not going to help this team by playing the OF any time soon, he needs to become a full--time DH with limited duty in the OF. Since we have a full-time DH, I just don't see a place for him. 3) Being a Friar Fan.. I will pass on Liney, Petco made him, The Cell will destroy him. There was a reason why Towers was so eager (other than rapping Mil) to let him go. The Bullpen needs to be fixed and we let the guy go last year who was perfect for it. ie Riske 4) I love Rowand as much as the next guy.. But adding more payroll just makes no sense. Rowand in his time in two hitters parks has managed just 2 seasons of hitting .300 or better. And we are going to pay him 7-10mil.. ouch. I would want a younger CF in here that can do the same thing but for cheaper and longer. 5) agreed. 6) See your suggestions for 5.. Add Crede to that list. neither LA team is going to trade and give up a top spect for a mid-season rental.. with a bad back. We had our shot to unload him we missed. 7) Your suggestions are Xbox.. and have been pointed out the flaws in them. All you did was point out why YOU don't like any of the moves. By making the XBox reference you are essentially stating that they are unrealistic, and yet made almost no points as to why they are unrealistic. If you are going to make a comment junior, than back it up. You should have said that you don't like the moves, because the fact is that these moves are pretty realistic. 1) I agree that Contreras has no trade value at this point. However, if the Sox pay a good portion of his salary(which I mentioned in the 1st post and you essentially agreed with at the end of your 1st point) and package him with a good prospect(which I mentioned in the 1st post) some team might be willing to take a chance on him(it would help if he was semi-effective the rest of the season). Getting Heilman might be pushing it a little, but if the Sox include a prospect that Mets like, than I think it is certainly possible especially when you consider that Heilman has been shopped by the Mets in the past. 2) At no point to you provide evidence that my suggestion was unrealistic. Dye is certainly not a GG caliber outfielder at this point in his career, but he isn't a complete hack in the field either. Furthermore, there might not be a better bargain in terms of bang for buck on the FA market. The Sox have some major holes in the outfield and few reasonable priced options. I would love to see the Sox go after Hunter instead, but he will likely get 14M+/yr with the season he is having. Byrnes and Ichiro are off the market. AJones is overrated and will be overpaid after this offseason. What option do you suggest? 3) Once again, at no point did you provide any evidence as to why my suggestion was unrealistic. I think it is HIGHLY likely that the Sox will spend some money this offseason to improve the pen and Linebrink is a player the Sox have attempted to trade for in the past. I will agree that his flyball/groundball ratio isn't great for USCF, but this is a clear case of you making an assumption without checking the stats. In 2007, Linebrinks home/away splits show that he benefited from a good pitchers park, but in order to make a good judgment you have to look at a larger sample size. Here are his 2004-2006 home/away splits - home(2.75 ERA 111.1 IP 105 H 12 HR 36 BB 112 SO) versus away(2.29 ERA 122 IP 81 H 9 HR 35 BB 109 SO). Do those look like the stats of a pitcher that benefits from a great pitchers park? Just checking junior. The fact remains that the relief pitching FA market is down right terrible this offseason and Linebrink is probably the best available option. 4) Common theme - not point out why my suggestion is unrealistic. You can twist any stats to make them appear to benefit your argument. I love how you say ONLY twice he has hit above .300. Do you watch/follow baseball? Do you know how hard it is to consistently hit .300+ every season? Does that mean Howard is a bad hitter because he has ONLY once(in his 3 full seasons) hit above .300? Or Konerko who has also ONLY twice hit above .300 while playing in a great hitter’s park? Besides, most great hitters parks aren't good hitters parks because they are more conducive to higher averages, but because they are more prone to HR's(that a free lesson). You want a younger/cheap CF option? Please tell me what this younger/cheap CF option is? 6) No team is going to trade a good prospect for a rental? This is a honest question, do you follow baseball? EVERY year at the trade deadline there are a handful of deals that do just that - TRADE GOOD PROSPECT FOR A RENTAL. Hell, the Sox do it themselves almost every trade deadline(see the white flag trade, the TWO times the Sox traded for Everett, the trade for CJohnson, the trade for Alomar, the trade for Garcia, etc as evidence). Even your Friar buddy Linebrink was traded for good prospects. Sure Crede will have to show that he is healthy and productive, but that isn't too unrealistic. Lets not forget that the surgery(that he has put off) is suppose to help alleviate those back problems(hence the reason for the surgery). 7) If you want to debate with the big boys you better come stronger than that! Now if you don’t mind I am going to get back to my Xbox. Please provide use with YOUR REALISTIC offseason suggestions!

QUOTE(SoxFan77 @ Aug 8, 2007 -> 03:57 PM) Is it a requirement to play XboX before you make up these ideas? I'm just wondering? Were you refering to my post? If so, I think my suggestions are far more realistic than you think. 1) It is no secret that the Sox are trying to move Contreras. Unfortunately, for any team to even consider taking him the Sox would have to pay a decent part of his salary. Furthermore, if they expect to receive any decent players in return they will probably have to include a player/prospect with some value. Finally, the Mets were one of the few teams that had MILD interest in Contreras. So is it that unrealistic to expect a trade similar to the one that I purposed? 2) The Sox have actually tried to resign Dye after not trading him and would likely want him back after his strong start to the 2nd half. So is it unreasonable to expect the Sox to continue to try and resign Dye? 3) The Sox have a huge need in the bullpen and are willing to spend some money to fix it. Linebrink is the best option and the Sox have tried to acquire him in the past, so I don't think it is that unrealistic for the Sox to make a move for him this offseason. 4) The move that might be the most unrealistic might be signing Rowand IF they resign Dye. However, the Sox do have some big holes in the outfield, have said that they will spend some money this offseason, and would love to have Rowand back. So even though it is the most unrealistic of my suggestions it is still very possible. 5) Releasing/Non-tendering/Declining to pick up the option of Pods, Erstad, and Uribe is just common sense and highly likely. 6) Trading Crede midseason is almost a given considering that Fields is behind him and the Sox are not likely to sign him to a long-term deal with Boras as his agent. The two LA teams both have huge weaknesses at 3B and have major league ready SS prospects who are blocked by current major leaguers, so that trade certainly makes sense for both teams. Any time you try and predict moves you are living in a fantasy world, but my suggestions are actually realistic(no Xbox included junior). "I like your rotation and your bullpen but, you just made this team SLOWER! We can't have that. Richar is fast, but not base stealing fast, from what I've read. Rowand isn't fast and then...that's it. I hate to say this, but Owens might be our starting CF next year. And I have a feeling KW will go out and get a speedy shortstop. Then you have Owens, new SS and Richar. That's more like what Ozzie wants for a team." Did you read about my midseason trade of Crede? After that trade the Sox lineup would look as follows: LF Owens SS Hu 1B Konerko DH Thome RF Dye CF Rowand C AJ 3B Fields 2B Richar That lineup has some good speed. Owens is a 30+ SB guy. Hu has good speed and averages double digit SB in the minors. Rowand and Fields run well for middle of the order hitters and have a chance to steal double digit bags. Richar has very good speed and will likely be a double digit SB guy as well. This would be my ideal lineup heading into next season(would love 20+ HR in the 8 hole), but Crede will have no trade value this offseason and the SS FA market is embarrassing to say the least. I could see the Sox trying another prospect for prospect move(like Richar for Cunningham) to try and get a speedy young SS like Aybar or Hu, but short of that I don't see many options.

QUOTE(Wanne @ Aug 8, 2007 -> 12:07 AM) I hate to say this...but Quentin sure does remind me of Terrero when he was with the DBacks (vaunted prospect). Living in Tucson and having seen both play a dozen plus times while in the DBacks minor league system, I can tell you that the two actually have very little in common. For starters, Quentin was a 1st round draft pick and a regular on BA's top 100 prospects. Terrero was considered a good prospect with potential/tools, but was never really considered as a top/can't miss prospect. The biggest difference between the two is plate discipline. Quentin has always been know for his plate discipline and has posted impressive numbers over his minor league career(166BB/178SO) opposed to Terrero who has shown no plate discipline(141BB/603SO). To put it into perspective, Terrero has twice as many minor league AB's yet has 15 fewer BB and his SO rate is significantly higher. I am a firm believer that plate discipline is one of the better indicators of success. Quentin has also hit for a much higher average than Terrero over his minor league career(.313 versus .286). Furthermore, Quentin has much more power than Terrero. In half the AB, Quentin has almost hit as many HR as Terrero(53 versus 64) and has a much higher SLG(.528 versus .453). The one area that Terrero has an advantage is speed, although Quentin does run well for a power hitter. Having lived in Arizona for the past 6 years I can tell you that most people thought that Terrero would be a very good 4th outfielder(with an outside chance of being a solid CF) while Quentin was suppose to be the centerpiece/future AS to build around for the next decade. Quentin's star has fallen a little over the past year and a half, but he is leaps and bounds ahead of Terrero in terms of potential and would be a great low risk POTENTIALLY high reward pick up.

QUOTE(WCSox @ Aug 7, 2007 -> 11:16 PM) Not a bad idea, but what makes you think that Dye will accept anything less than $20 million? Because he is going to be 34, is injury-prone, and still only hitting .243! I might be willing to give him 8M/yr, but those facts listed above would prevent me from giving him anything more than 2 years and 8M/yr. If some team wants to take a 10M/yr chance on Dye, not to mention the possibility of that teams 1st round draft pick(if Dye is a type A FA and the team that signs him is in the bottom half of the draft) since the Sox would certainly offer him arbitration in that case, than by all means go for it. Another option I would love the Sox to look into is Carlos Quentin from Arizona. With Byrnes resigning combined with Young and Upton holding down the other two outfield spots for the next half decade; Quentin's time in Arizona is all but over. This could be a classic case of buying low and getting great results. I have seen this guy play a few dozen times in Tucson and this guy can flat out hit. He got off to a slow start(partly because he was trying to play through an injury) and was never given a fair shot once he got off the DL(15AB). Since being demoted to AAA he is hitting .417/2/12 1.226 OPS in 48 AB. The guy has power to all fields, has very good plate discipline, and a very good arm. I think he would be a classic low risk high reward type find.

Here is my semi-realistic offseason. 1) Trade Contreras, cash, and Broadway/Russel to either LA for Proctor OR NYM for Heilman - it is sad that the Sox will probably have to pay some of Contreras's contract AND probably include a good prospect to land a quality major leaguer, but this moves saves the Sox some money and addresses a big weakness(bullpen). 2) Resign Dye 2year 14M - despite his slow start(some of which was his injury) he still has 22HR and 59RBI and has been producing like the 2006 version of Dye since the AS break. Personally, I would love(and believe it is realistic) to expect the 2005 version of Dye type numbers(.275/30/85 .850OPS), which for 7M is a relative bargain. 3) Sign Roward 3year 30M - Byrnes just set the market rate for a player with similar numbers and talent. I think 10M/yr is a little too much for Rowand, but he is a fan favorite, has developed into a solid offensive player, and addresses a weakness(CF). 4) Sign Linebrink 3 year 12M - Personally, I think he is a little overrated and his groundball/flyball ratio is a little scary for USCF, but the Sox need all the help they can get in the bullpen and he is the best available option. 5) Non-tender/don't pick up options/release Uribe, Erstad, and Pods. Here is how the lineup/roster would look: C AJ DH Thome 1B Konerko 2B Richar SS Cintron? Gonzalez? Ozuna(playing 2B with Richar moving to SS)? 3B Crede LF Fields CF Rowand RF Dye The one problem is that the offseason doesn't address the need at SS or leadoff hitter. In my scenario, the Sox would let Crede show that he is healthy and trade him midseason to either LAA or LAD for one of their SS prospects(I would prefer Hu from the Dodgers). After trading Crede the Sox would move Fields to 3B, Hu(or Aybar) to SS, and either Owens or Sweeney to LF(Owens likely getting first crack). The trade will also give the Sox a couple of options for the leadoff spot(Hu/Aybar or Owens/Sweeney). I really like the Sox lineup after moving Crede. LHP Buehrle RHP Vazquez RHP Garland LHP Danks LHP Gonzalez? RHP Egbert? RHP Broadway/Russel(the one not traded with Contreras)? RHP Haeger? RHP Masset? LHP Sisco? The Sox have a lot of options for the 5th spot although I think the two favorites would be Gonzalez and Egbert, however, if the 5th starter struggles the Sox do have some choices. The Sox keep their top 4 starters and should have one of the better rotations in baseball(remember that the 5th starter is essentially replacing Contreras production or lack there of in 2007). RHP Jenks RHP Linebrink RHP Heilman/Proctor RHP Mac LHP Logan LHP Thornton Last spot up for grabs(likely one of the 5th starter runner ups) if the Sox go with a 7 man bullpen. The bullpen should be a lot stronger with the additions of Linebrink and either Heilman or Proctor. I still worry about Thornton though. C Hall IF Cintron IF/OF Ozuna OF Owens The Sox bench doesn't have much pop, but it does have some versatility. Maybe sign a decent power OF/1B bat for the bench. That is my semi-realistic offseason. I think that roster would do a good job of retooling and mixing young talent with veterans(contending while still building for the future).

QUOTE(SoxFan77 @ Aug 2, 2007 -> 06:35 PM) 1. So Cotts, Polette, Herminson are all had great years in 06.. no.. What about 07.. No.. Hmm okay what about 04.. NO.. Hmmm 2. Did we make the playoffs? What does a win total care.. If we won 81 and made the playoffs is a better achievement.. But, it seems you like to settle on meaningless accomplishments. to justify your position. No one remembers a 90 win 3rd place team in 4 years.. 3. So you don't hold him accountable for putting a crappy bullpen in there every year? Let me guess its Ozzie's fault right, or whatever the manager is? It seems you like to blame the wrong people.. ie, Ozzie can't make the effiel tower out two pounds of crap KW gave him.. but you expect it. 4. and 01,02,03,04,06..All of which we missed the playoffs because of KW contructed failures. Coaches can only work with what they are given.. When you give them crap, it shows up on the field. Ozzie, Tony LaRussa, Jim Leyland.. none could have made this team win this year... or any previous years.. Kw point blank does not know how to build a complete team.. HUGE RED FLAG. If you want to talk about accountability, than why don't we talk about the players performance on the field? Is it KW fault that the pitching staff significantly regressed in 2006(some of which was expected)? Was it KW fault that the ENTIRE offense was below their career averages in the first half of 2007(KW does deserve some blame for the bullpen in 2007)? At some point you have to stop blaming the front office and manager and blame the players who are underachieving. A GM's job is to assemble a team with certain expectations in regards to performance based on talent and career numbers. Is KW one of the top GM's in the game? Probably not, but he is certainly better than average, did bring the Sox a championship, and has made the Sox competitive year in and year out. Despite the down year, I think the Sox can retool a little bit and return to the competitive status next year. That is KW's task this offseason, and if the Sox don't turn it around next year than you can start the I hate Kenny campaign.

I hate the idea of WMP. The guy is a one dimensional player with limited potential despite his age. The fact is that he was a .255 career hitter in the minors and a .257 career hitter in the majors. He has some of the worst plate discipline in the majors and averages almost 200 SO if given a full season of AB(with only about 30 walks). He runs well for a big guy, but he isn't a base stealing threat(10/17 in his major league career). Plus he is down right terrible defensively(holds the distinction of having more errors than assists - which is terrible for an outfielder). He will hit about 30 HR if given a full season of AB, but considering that he is below average in all the other major areas makes him next to worthless IMO. People keep saying that he has potential and at 25 he is still young, but what areas is he going to improve in? Besides, he has been in the majors for 5 years and shown no consistent improvement. If he does have so much potential, than why is Boston moving him for a player that is hitting .230, a FA at the end of the season, and who plays the same position? I would be very disappointed if the Sox get him(and don't move him). I would much rather have prospects like Lowrie, Bowden, Masterson, ect.

There is no way that the Sox are getting either Ellsbury or Buckholz, but the one guy that I would want would be Lowrie. He is having a breakout year in AA(recently promoted to AAA): .297/8/49 .911OPS. The scouting reports that I have read on him say that he is solid defensively at SS, he has good pop(46 XBH in AA and won triple crown at Stanford), hits for a good average(.300+ every year at Stanford and .297 in AA), has great plate discipline(65BB/58SO), and he runs well(although he isn't a huge SB threat). I really like what I have read about this guy and would love the Sox to get their hands on him.

You have to be careful getting too excited about players off to go starts in rookie ball, but here are some potential sleepers in rookie ball. Moreno 20 RHP(Great Falls) - 2.84ERA 25.1IP 27H 0HR 4BB 24SO - had a great start tonight; very good groundball ratio; decent numbers in Bristol last year; very good control; great BB/SO ratio Marrero 20 OF(Great Falls) - .364/0/9 11BB/8SO 2SB - appears to have all 5 tools; decent numbers in GF last year; 4 triples already this season; had 2 outfield assists in todays game; very good plate discipline Martinez 18 OF(Bristol) - .410/3/17 2BB/11SO 2SB 1.061OPS - great size at 6'5; solid numbers in VSL(including solid plate discipline); putting up huge numbers Lin 20 RHP(Bristol) - .64ERA 14IP 12H 0HR 2BB 17SO - fastball only in mid 80's during ST; has very good offspeed stuff; very good SO/IP and BB/SO ratio; might be in A ball soon Gallagher 21 OF(Great Falls) is a sleeper prospect in this years draft; appears to be coming around and could be in A ball before too long Johnson 23 2B(Bristol)- I have no clue why this guy is in Bristol; at 23 he should be in A ball; putting up huge numbers in Bristol

ND continues to compile a great class before July as they received their 10th 4-star(plus 1 5-star) commitment today in safety Jamoris Slaughter. I love the fact that Weis and Brown are going into the south and taking away top players from traditional SEC strongholds. Furthermore, rumor has it that 3 other 4-star recruits had great visits this past week and are heavy ND leans at this point and could all commit within the next week or two: Ethan Johnson 4-star DE(48th overall) Dan McCarthy 4-star S Michael Floyd 4-star WR(52nd overall) The fact that Weis(with the help of Brown) is starting to get defensive talent to match his offensive talent is a scary thought for ND haters.

QUOTE(Flash Tizzle @ Jun 27, 2007 -> 05:01 PM) Whether Buehrle is signed or not (ignoring everything within the last 13 pages), I would then expect Garland to be traded. Regardless of Williams labeling him unavailable, we NEED an influx of young talent on this team somehow. Someone with value has to be dealt. Contreras won't be enough. I disagree with this statement. I think trading Contreras, and maybe Dye/Iguchi/Crede(assuming that they net talent equal to or better the compensative picks the Sox would get if they offered the former two arbitration) would net the Sox a handful of solid(maybe not great) prospects. Furthermore, the Sox actually have a handful of talented prospects ready to contribute at the major league level: Floyd RHP - Has been dominating the past month plus and appears to have regained the confidence to go along with his stuff. If a starter is traded he is next in line. Sweeney OF - Has been hitting well since being dominated to AAA and should be ready to take over one outfield spot full time next year. Richar 2B - Since being added, he is hitting close to .400(with 3 triples) and appears to be a late bloomer(with his impressive tools). Broadway RHP - I am not that high on Broadway, but he is having a solid season at AAA and appears to be a decent bottom of the rotation starter in the future. Gonzalez LHP - This is the one guy that has the upside to be a consistent AS caliber player. He is dominating AA and will likely get a shot at a rotation spot next year. Egbert RHP - Continues to fly under the radar, but has a great GO/FO ratio, doesn't give up HR, has seen his BAA decrease, and SO/IP increase over the past couple of season. Like Gonzalez, he will likely get a shot at a rotation spot next year. Fields 3B - Currently with the team(obviously), and is showing the skills needed to be an everyday player(assuming that you can live with 150 SO/yr) and make Crede expendable. As you can see, the Sox do have a handful of talented young prospects ready to make an impact at the major league level. Add a decent SS prospect like Aybar(or something similar) from Anaheim for Crede(Sox might have to add something else), a couple of decent prospects from the Mets for Contreras, and a couple of compensative picks for Dye and Iguchi, and I think the Sox have a solid nucleus of young players to mix with the veterans. Not to mention a very good foundation of starting pitching in their prime or heading towards their prime(Buehrle, Garland, Vazquez, and Danks). With that said, I will wait until Buehrle actually signs an extension before I get too excited.