almagest

QUOTE(witesoxfan @ Jan 13, 2008 -> 05:31 PM) I think Floyd is a better bet to put up an ERA under 5 than is Danks; Danks was doing a lot of it on smoke and mirrors, what with his 1.48 WHIP in the first half of the year to go with his 4.62 ERA. Both fatigue and the odds caught up to him later in the year, where he put up a WHIP of 1.64, higher but not a ton higher, and an ERA of 7.11, which is huge and was somewhat expected. I like Danks a lot, and think he has a future in this league, but he needs to atleast increase his IP output from the previous two seasons where he has put up 140 innings in each of them. And doing that may end up in Charlotte, seeing as how he has options left. Beyond that, I'd feel much more comfortable with Colon in the rotation than either Floyd or Danks; there's something to be said for experience, regardless of how much s*** we give Ozzie for it (and that was deservedly so, because Darin Erstad is a terrible player). There's no long-term commitment; if he sucks, you can DFA him; if he's good and the team is good, you are in contention; if he's good and you are not, you can trade him at the deadline for a couple decent prospects. There's a lot to be said for a player like Colon, and there's virtually zero downside to bringing him in, so long as his medical and scouting reports checkout. I don't think either Danks or Floyd have anything to prove at AAA. Floyd has already dominated there, and Danks has already pitched at or slightly below a replacement-player level in the majors, at the age of 22. If you sign Colon, unless he puts up numbers approaching what he did with the White Sox the first time (which I really don't think is possible), he's just blocking the growth of one of our young pitchers, who in the long run have a chance to be a better investment than Colon. I'd really rather try to catch lightning-in-a-bottle with younger players, because I think they're a better bet for continued success. Also, again, the Mets were scared away by Colon's medical reports, which should tell you something about his health.

QUOTE(iamshack @ Jan 13, 2008 -> 12:25 PM) I'm not sure I understand your post....on one hand, you say you don't think it's any of our concern "as fans" what the White Sox payroll is. Then, just one sentence later, you say you don't want to go to the Cell and pay close to $100 to see crappy players. Don't you think the two are intertwined? At least indirectly? Obviously the White Sox are not spending "my" money on the payroll directly, but I know a few things which lead me to take an interest in what that payroll is. 1) I know they have a finite payroll- and it's probably going to be between $100-110 million. Therefore, spending large chunks of that allotment on players that have never shown the ability to perform at an average or above-average level does concern me. 2) There is at least an indirect correlation between the White Sox payroll and ticket prices, concession prices, merchandise prices, etc., which trickles down to me. And don't get me wrong- I am happy to do my part- but like you, I too don't want my hard-earned money being spent on the likes of overpaid, underperforming players. Therefore, I am concerned with the money the White Sox spend or don't spend on players. My desire to not waste $100 on crappy players has almost nothing to do with how much money they make. It doesn't matter to me if it's Andy Gonzales or Gary Matthews, Jr -- if they're terrible, I don't want to see them. And Lohse is terrible -- whether he costs 1 mil/yr or 10 mil/yr, signing him would be a mistake. Sure, a 10 mil/yr investment on Lohse is a worse deal by far... for the White Sox. It really doesn't affect me either way, because ticket prices sure aren't going to change, and a team has limited room on it's 40 man roster, so even signing Lohse to a reasonable contract might be the only significant move the Sox would be able to make. As for affecting a team's ability to make future transactions while being "hamstrung" by a contract... unless it's a seriously significant amount of money (I'd say approaching 20 mil/yr), that's probably less of a problem than you'd think. Say the Sox sign Lohse for 10/yr, and he blows. His contract impact, while a pain in the rear, can be alleviated through a minor payroll increase, or by trading or not resigning players (Crede or Uribe, for example). Anyway, it's not my job to worry about the team's financial status. That's for their shareholders and accountants to do.

QUOTE(witesoxfan @ Jan 13, 2008 -> 01:44 PM) You are very hopeful, that's all I have to say about that. So what would be a better solution? And why couldn't we expect Danks to put up an era near 4.5? He was around there until his late season blow-up last year, and he stands a pretty good chance of improving. Floyd is probably a much less safe bet, but I like what I saw from him late in the year, and if he falters I'd think one of Haeger or Egbert or Broadway could put up an ERA in the mid to high 4s. I think they're a better bet to do so than Colon or Freddy, anyway. QUOTE(southsider2k5 @ Jan 13, 2008 -> 02:26 PM) I think I might be the only one who thinks that Uribe will now have a pretty decent season for the Sox. Remember the best year he had with us was when he was a supersub playing for a contract after being dumped by Colorado for Aaron Miles. I think the kick in the teeth of losing his job, plus having to fight for playing time, might make him a little more reseptive to playing a team game again. That's an intriguing thought, and very well may be true. I don't see it happening though. I think what we've been seeing from Uribe is what we're going to get, and even if it's not, I don't want to have to watch a player who needs that much motivation to perform.

QUOTE(Greg The Bull Luzinski @ Jan 12, 2008 -> 12:49 PM) If Uribe is starting at 2B, what the hell was the point of getting Cabrera? Or for that matter, Richar? The whole point of Cabrera was to not have Uribe striking out three times a day while trying to hit an 800 ft homerun. I'm sure the White Sox are trying to get rid of Uribe, but Ozzie realizes that if that's not possible, he'll have to use him somehow -- besides as a super-sub or defensive sub, pushing Richar for the starting job at 2B or working in a possible platoon against LHP (where Uribe has 4 more points in OBP and slugs almost 30 points higher for his career... not much, but it's something.) might make sense. Though one of Uribe's few strengths, his arm, is wasted at 2B. Realistically, I think we have to realize there probably aren't many teams that want to give much, if anything, for Uribe. His offensive numbers are absolutely putrid. His only saving point is his defense, which probably relegates him to a defensive sub role. I doubt any team will give anything of value for a defensive sub. Anyway, back on topic. I say pass on Bartolo Colon. It's obvious he still has lingering medical concerns, otherwise the Mets would've signed him, and I think we're better off giving Danks, Floyd, et. al. a chance instead of spending money on a guy who in a best case scenario will only be a shell of his former self. As I said in the Lohse thread, we already have guys who can post a 4.50-4.75 era, and they have upside at least. Colon is seriously overweight, on the wrong side of 30, and has thrown a ridiculous number of pitches in his career. No thanks.

Jaime Navarro Josh Paul D'Angelo Jimenez Mark Johnson

QUOTE(YASNY @ Jan 12, 2008 -> 11:45 AM) There has been so much complaining about us going with Danks and Floyd that this puts things into perspective. The kids may falter, but then again we could pay a mediocre pitcher a king's ransom and still be no better off. Yep. As I've said in other threads, though, I don't think its any of our concern as fans to care what the White Sox payroll is, or how much they "save" by not signing a player. That being said, if the Sox are going to give a pitcher close to 10 mil/year, it'd better not be someone like Kyle Lohse. I don't want to go to the Cell next year and pay close to $100 to see him consistently give up 4+ runs over 5 innings. I'd rather go see players who at least have the chance to have an upside.

No. Thanks. John Danks' final numbers last year are about equivalent to what you could expect from Kyle Lohse. Do we really want to pay Lohse 7 mil + a year to consistently give what Danks gave last year? At least Danks has an upside, and should probably pitch better than he did last year. Lohse has no where to go but down, especially since he'd be coming back from the NL.

Looks like I was right about the BCS. I missed Gladiators tonight, though. How was it?

QUOTE(IlliniKrush @ Jan 7, 2008 -> 12:56 AM) I hear there's some sort of football game on. I've a feeling it's going to be another lopsided college bowl game, and I need something else to watch, just in case.

QUOTE(BearSox @ Jan 6, 2008 -> 11:56 PM) well, I think Young will be a decent player, but a lot of people here are proclaiming him to be the next Carlos Beltran or something, and thats bs. I agree about Chris Young completely. Even with his power, and even trying to maximize the number of his ABs given said power, I have no idea why Arizona batted him leadoff with his robust .297 OBP. He's like Alfonso Soriano, but without the high average. I'd think he'd be better off hitting lower in the order, where his power would be more valuable, and low OBP less of a hindrance. Beltran was a bit overrated too (IMHO) because of his performance a couple years ago in the playoffs, though he actually has become a pretty good value, given his .878 2007 OPS, an ~.850 career OPS, and salary of 13.5 million. Torii Hunter put up an .839 OPS in 2007, with a career OPS of .793, and he's getting what? 18 million a year? Even Rowand is getting $12 mil/year now, and he's no where near worth as much as Beltran. QUOTE(RockRaines @ Jan 6, 2008 -> 06:08 PM) I wouldnt mind seeing the reactions from when Reed was traded. I remember that. I was lurking here at the time -- quite a few doomsday prophecies, I believe. I can't say I didn't feel the same way, though. That was one of the deals that helped me realize how worthless hanging on to prospects can be.

That old blonde guy really annoyed me. I'm glad he almost had a heart attack and lost. I also am amazed at how much they've improved upon the old show, in almost every aspect. And that was no small task, since the original show had the considerable force of nostalgia behind it. So who else will be watching it tomorrow night?

The more I think about this trade, the more I like it. I'm also wondering if perhaps Quentin wasn't meant all along to be a replacement for Sweeney. There isn't much space for Sweeney in our outfield as of now, even if Quentin doesn't do well. I'd imagine Owens would take over in CF, moving Swisher to LF. The thing that worries me a bit, though, is when Dye leaves, or has to move to DH/1B. We don't really have anything to replace him, unless they're actually going to give Brian Anderson another chance. Also, I've seen mention of using free agency to fill a majority of our holes. Financial concerns aside (in reality, we as fans should seldom if ever worry about how much a particular player costs. The White Sox aren't going to lower ticket prices because they saved money by not signing a player.), each worthwhile free agent we sign is going to cost us draft picks anyway, which is what we really need at this point. We have to fill our lower minor leagues with quality prospects, since they're so barren. I don't feel including DLS in this trade hurts us as much as some seem to think, either. Whether we trade him or not, our minor leagues are in dire need of legitimate prospects, and Kenny needed to help keep the team competitive now. I think people forget that the minor leagues are there to help the parent club, whether it's through producing good MLB-caliber players, or helping to acquire good MLB-caliber players through trade. Whether the players we traded end up being stars, or busts, Swisher helps us quite a bit this year, and will likely help us for the next few years as well. In my eyes, that makes it a good trade.

Long time lurker, first time poster. Anyway, I'd like to compare last season, and career numbers for two players - Jack Egbert, and Gio Gonzalez: Egbert 2007 W L ERA G GS CG SH GF SV IP H R ER HR BB SO WP BK H9 HR9 BB9 K9 WHIP GB% 12 8 3.06 28 28 0 0 0 0 161.2 138 63 55 3 44 165 6 0 7.68 0.17 2.45 9.19 1.13 -- Egbert Career (4 MiLB seasons) W L ERA G GS CG SH GF SV IP H R ER HR BB SO WP BK H9 HR9 BB9 K9 WHIP GB% 35 24 2.93 104 90 4 3 0 -- 529.0 461 215 172 12 179 468 23 -- 7.84 0.20 3.05 7.96 1.21 -- Gio 2007 W L ERA G GS CG SH GF SV IP H R ER HR BB SO WP BK H9 HR9 BB9 K9 WHIP GB% 9 7 3.18 27 27 0 0 0 0 150.0 116 57 53 10 57 185 5 2 6.96 0.60 3.42 11.10 1.15 -- Gio Career (4 MiLB seasons) W L ERA G GS CG SH GF SV IP H R ER HR BB SO WP BK H9 HR9 BB9 K9 WHIP GB% 31 28 3.49 91 89 0 0 -- 0 492.1 400 215 191 43 206 577 23 -- 7.32 0.79 3.77 10.55 1.23 -- Egbert is two years older, but the stats are pretty close, with an edge to Egbert (IMO) due to the extra innings thrown, starts made, lower HR/9, BB/9, WHIP, and ERA. I guess the point of this comparison is to ask why so many people seem to think Gio was such a "can't miss" prospect with a ceiling of a #3 or #2 starter, when Egbert has anywhere from a slightly worse (considering the difference two years can make development-wise, though considering they both have four years experience, I'm not sure this is the case) to slightly better career line, but is considered a 4th or 5th starter at best. I think we as fans need to stop over-hyping our prospects, and realize we got a guy who can play all outfield positions as well as first base, and easily put up an 850-900 OPS for five years without breaking the bank like we would have for Hunter or Rowand. People also seem to forget we would have lost draft picks in signing either of those players as well, and that Swisher is a much safer bet to produce over the long-term than either Hunter or Rowand. And really, all we lost was a solid pitching prospect with some durability issues (Gio), an A ball pitcher who seems to project best as a short reliever (DLS), and a guy who couldn't hit over .280 in AAA, nor hit more than 13 home runs in a bandbox stadium (Sweeney). For a player with the ability and contract status of Swisher, I'd make that trade anyday.