Thad Bosley

QUOTE (JUSTgottaBELIEVE @ Sep 9, 2016 -> 10:03 AM) I'd say the guys I previously suggest fill those needs: Moreland and Fowler. For probably a slightly higher cost, Alvarez and Desmond would work as well. Sox are currently 12th in the league in offense. Cleveland and Detroit stand at #3 & 4 respectively. How does the addition of these two second tier players even remotely put us in the same ballpark as those two teams? How do those two and Volquez close a 15 game gap with the Indians, and a 9 game gap with the Tigers? Are you just banking on those two teams tanking next season and, for the first time in a very long time, patchwork additions by the Sox catapulting them to the top of the heap?

QUOTE (JUSTgottaBELIEVE @ Sep 9, 2016 -> 06:18 AM) So let me get this straight. They would consider a Sale trade largely built around a high profile pitching prospect (i.e. Glasnow, Giolito) in hopes that guy can eventually turn into Chris Sale-lite? Better be getting a high profile MLB ready catcher or CF in return as well otherwise that does nothing to improve the team over the next 5 years. I'm not trading Sale for one big time SP prospect and a bunch of B level prospect position players and relievers. That's terrible. Nah, what's terrible is thinking that simply adding Matt Wieters, Edinson Volquez, Dexter Fowler and Mitch Moreland to this lousy roster would somehow transform it into a contender. THAT would be terrible!

QUOTE (JUSTgottaBELIEVE @ Sep 8, 2016 -> 05:28 PM) When I hear "tear it up" I hear trade Sale, Q, and all other vets on expiring contracts within the next two years. So what is YOUR plan then since I have seemingly misunderstood? Who specifically are you trading and what players are you getting back? Lol - well, since I am neither Rick Hahn nor Kenny Williams, I'm not specifically trading anyone. They are! What I will tell you is that the teams the Sox were rumored to be talking with at the trade deadline and the names that were being bandied about as potential returns for our prized assets were right in line with what I would hope and expect. The fact the team pulled back and decided to wait until this offseason because they think they can do even better than some of those proposals we heard and read about in late July has me more excited for this particular offseason than I've been in a long time.

QUOTE (JUSTgottaBELIEVE @ Sep 8, 2016 -> 12:44 PM) So how do you define "time to tear it up" and "shake this disaster at its core"? You clearly do not want to wait until next July to "tear it up" so I can only assume you want to "shake this disaster at its core" this coming offseason? I certainly don't want to wait past this coming offseason, and all hints suggest that neither does Sox management.

QUOTE (captain54 @ Sep 8, 2016 -> 02:28 PM) You can read into it however you chose, but I interpret "tear it up" as abandoning the status quo and approach, as the Sox try to right the ship for the 2017 season. apply a fresh attitude and, like most intelligent business enterprises do consistently, come up with a new battle plan when things don't work.. instead of trying to fabricate a million and one excuses and woulda-shoulda-couldas when you pick apart the last failed campaign… and again, not really sure what is so hard for you to understand here.. trying to launch your primary rebuild mid-season isn't the wisest approach, because of the fact that teams in contention for the last couple of months, will be less likely to include establish ML'ers as part of any package…. That is exactly what I meant by saying "tear it up", and you are correct, it ain't that hard of a concept to understand.

QUOTE (JUSTgottaBELIEVE @ Sep 8, 2016 -> 10:15 AM) But according to many in this thread there is only one way to rebuild and that is to trade all major league pieces as soon as possible, but keep Rodon, Anderson, and Fulmer. The ironic thing is Rodon is only controlled one year more than Q and the same length as Eaton so might as well trade him too then. Interesting. I don't recall one poster saying that.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Sep 8, 2016 -> 07:15 AM) Totally this. Apparently there aren't various levels of discontent. It is either "peaches and cream" or military coup. And it is way worse this year. Way more bitter... way more angry. The small market Kansas City Royals have won more postseason games in just the past two years than the large market Chicago White Sox have in the past 56. That would, amongst many other things, explain what you seem to interpret as a "bitter" and "angry" attitude of a fan base that has been failed by decades of inept ownership going all the way back to 1960, not to mention the complete disaster that has been the past four seasons.

QUOTE (JUSTgottaBELIEVE @ Sep 7, 2016 -> 09:47 PM) Who said the fan base was content last year? Dramatic much? I said the fan base is increasingly more impatient and frustrated now than they were a year ago (that doesn't mean the fan base was content last year) while you said they were equally frustrated and impatient last year. You're wrong. In absence of an official poll, I will let others chime in on this subject (well Caulfield already did). I keep telling you that you're right. It's clearly night and day the way the fans felt after the '13, '14, & '15 seasons with only a seven year playoff drought, and how they feel now after the '13, '14, '15 AND the '16 season, AND a playoff drought now grown to eight years. It's amazing how different it feels now versus last year.

QUOTE (JUSTgottaBELIEVE @ Sep 7, 2016 -> 09:32 PM) On this I am absolutely right. Good luck finding someone to agree with you on this. You are totally right. It's almost night and day the difference in frustration being expressed here lately with what was done so at the same time last year. Nobody seemed to mind the cumulative effect of the '13, '14, & '15 seasons with the seven year playoff drought last year. But 2016 changed everything. We've gone from a content fan base to a completely frustrated one just because of this year's ineptitude. I apologize - I clearly did not remember the mood of the fans from just one year ago.

QUOTE (JUSTgottaBELIEVE @ Sep 7, 2016 -> 09:21 PM) WRONG Lol - ok, I give up. You win. You're right - it was all peaches and cream with the fan base this time last year. This was the year when the straw broke the Sox fan base's back. Oh, for the calm and content of this time last year!

QUOTE (JUSTgottaBELIEVE @ Sep 7, 2016 -> 09:11 PM) Yes I'm serious. How many people on this site alone have stated that they have never been so frustrated and upset with White Sox baseball? There is absolutely more angst amongst the fan base now than there was a year ago at this time. Go back and look at the threads from a year ago. Angst at the same level then as it is now. Nothing has changed on that front.

QUOTE (JUSTgottaBELIEVE @ Sep 7, 2016 -> 08:48 PM) Do you honestly believe the White Sox fan base was as impatient and frustrated one year ago as they are today? I strongly disagree with that assessment. LOL - are you serious?! Were you around for seasons 2013, 2014, & 2015? Those were three, long and brutal seasons for the fan base to endure. The Sox were last in TV ratings and 27th in attendance in all of baseball last year. If that doesn't translate to frustration to you, I don't know what will. Wow.

QUOTE (JUSTgottaBELIEVE @ Sep 7, 2016 -> 08:17 PM) I'm hopeful that a greater sense of urgency resulting from an increasingly impatient fan base will be enough for him to increase it $15-20MM higher than it was this year (roughly in line with 2011 levels). It's not saying much but they are on track for their highest season attendance since 2012 so I'm hoping that helps too. Same sense of urgency in place one year ago: long playoff drought and impatient fan base. Yet you saw the retooling efforts they expended last offseason. Again, do you really expect anything different from a payroll perspective from the owner? And what's your view if he won't raise the payroll? Then what?

QUOTE (JUSTgottaBELIEVE @ Sep 7, 2016 -> 06:53 PM) I think they intended to compete but sure didn't spend like it last offseason. I honestly believe even Hahn knew that the signings were destined for failure but he was likely given a hard cap on what he could spend. Do you think Hahn would have settled for guys like Latos, Rollins and Jackson if he was given a larger budget? That's why I have been saying that if they want to compete next year JR has to be willing to increase the payroll. They won't be able to compete otherwise. Well, he wasn't willing last offseason when we were essentially in the same situation as we will be heading into this offseason. With seemingly the same resources at his disposal as was available last offseason, what changes this time around where you might expect him to increase payroll to the extent necessary to acquire the quantity and quality of additions it would take to turn this lemon of a roster into a legitimate contender?

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Sep 7, 2016 -> 01:23 PM) You can't win with him. He thinks the only exciting season since Reinsdorf owned the team is when they won the WS. Any other season, including playoff appearances....a boring failure. He did move the bar and say consecutive playoff appearances are exciting. So get this, in his world winning 102 games, and losing the WS in 7 games, boring, but the next year, if you did that and then snuck into the WC with an 86 win season and get trounced in one game, far more exciting because it's consecutive. He's probably the only guy who when Javy Vazquez got lit up in the 2008 playoffs, blamed Reinsdorf. In the 35 years of Reinsdorf's regime outside of our magical 2005 season - 35 years, mind you - just four playoff appearances and a measly four playoff wins across those four appearances. So I stand corrected - the excitement at 35th & Shields has been in great abundance during the past nearly four decades.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Sep 7, 2016 -> 01:23 PM) You can't win with him. He thinks the only exciting season since Reinsdorf owned the team is when they won the WS. Any other season, including playoff appearances....a boring failure. He did move the bar and say consecutive playoff appearances are exciting. So get this, in his world winning 102 games, and losing the WS in 7 games, boring, but the next year, if you did that and then snuck into the WC with an 86 win season and get trounced in one game, far more exciting because it's consecutive. He's probably the only guy who when Javy Vazquez got lit up in the 2008 playoffs, blamed Reinsdorf.

QUOTE (captain54 @ Sep 7, 2016 -> 01:09 PM) You are so far off of the rails with your argument at this point, it's getting to be almost impossible to follow you… First off, the franchise is not going to be sold.. It will be in the hands of JR until he passes on, and will be left to his heirs.. the investors are so remotely not considering selling that countless interviews have them totally in the dark as to how it would actually transpire… Forget your fantasy land Disney scenario of the Sox somehow magically re-creating 2005.. How many more years of failure is it going to take for you to be convinced that how they got their in 05', is simply ineffective at this point? The Sox have been "all in" since 2006, and except for backing into the playoffs in 08, and going out in the first round.. have absolutely nothing to show for it.. with the moving of Sale and/or Q in the offseason, the Sox have an unprecedented opportunity in a sellers market to possibly reload with established ML'ers. but also prospects who could be a part of the franchise for years to come.. Yes, nothing is guaranteed.. But the way I see the Sox don't have anything to lose at this point..especially considering they are mid market payroll, mid market revenue, still suffering the effects of a neglected farm, and an octogenarian owner, and a roster filled with talent, that if traded.. can only result in parallel moves…. But apparently you seem to be content (or maybe oblivious) to the fact that the fan base is seriously eroding, attendance at or near the bottom, rock bottom TV ratings, and an ungodly terrible record against the teams they absolutely need to be beat, to be considered a contender… THIS!!!!! THANK YOU!!!!

QUOTE (JUSTgottaBELIEVE @ Sep 7, 2016 -> 01:03 PM) So there is only one way to rebuild and that is by trading everyone? What would you call the moves the Tigers made last season or the Red Sox a couple seasons prior or the Rangers after the 2013 season? I guess they just retooled because none of those teams traded EVERYONE of value from their major league roster. I guess retooling can work out pretty well too. I don't know if you've noticed, but retooling has not even come close to working out with this particular roster. And unfortunately, the retooling you've been suggesting wouldn't work either. Retooling isn't just about upgrading over the subpar players on the current roster and then claiming success. Retooling is getting players of a certain caliber that collectively can join the core and enable them to legitimately compete for a chance for the postseason. Adding Wieters, Volquez, Fowler and Moreland to this current roster does not get this team to that level. That's just the 2017 version of adding Melky, LaRoche, Robertson and Duke.

QUOTE (JUSTgottaBELIEVE @ Sep 7, 2016 -> 07:29 AM) Wieters replaces the Avila/Navarro combo. $10MM vs $6.5MM or $3.5MM increase. Fowler is not getting $15MM AAV. I could see $10-12MM AAV over 3 or 4 years. Let's say $12MM vs $5MM they paid AJ this year or $7MM increase. Even if Volquez gets $7MM his salary combined with Shields and Fulmer amounts to $18MM or $2MM less than what they paid Shields and Danks this year. Moreland isn't getting $8MM AAV unless maybe it's only a one year deal. Even then, consider Pedro Alvarez as a decent comp from last season and he got 1/$5.75MM last offseason. I think Moreland gets $6MM AAV over 3 years vs ~$1MM they spent for DH this year. Add it all up and that's an approx. $13.5MM increase. I realize other players are due a raise because of arbitration, etc. but still that only bumps total payroll up $15-20MM from this season, no where near $40MM. I would expect some of those increases to be offset by losing guys like Turner, Latos and Avi and not buying out guys like Albers. Which team currently earmarked for the postseason would we presumably supplant next year if the Sox made all of the acquisitions you suggest above? Who do we leap frog over, given the starting point is the current roster, and then adding the guys you want?

QUOTE (JUSTgottaBELIEVE @ Sep 7, 2016 -> 05:39 AM) 1. Wieters will end this season with more than 400 PA and had nearly 300 last season. Every player comes with an injury risk but he appears to be past his Tommy John at this point. 2. In the past 6 seasons Fowler's lowest WAR has been 1.5 in his one season with the Astros. Even if he does what he did with the Astros that's still a big upgrade from Jackson/Schuck. 3. I still think the Royals cut Volquez lose but even if they don't it shouldn't be that hard to find someone to fill the #5 SP role (Fulmer?). Even an ERA in the 4.75-5.25 range as you suggest is a massive upgrade from what this team has gotten this season from that spot. The combined ERA of Danks/Shields/Ranaudo is just below 8! 4. Moreland is a career 765 OPS. Even if he dips to 725-750 that's still an upgrade over the combined numbers put up this season by Avi/Sands/Morneau. Also, I have him slotted in the 6 hole behind Fowler, Eaton, Abreu, Frazier, and Melky. He typically bats 6 or 7 for the AL best Texas Rangers. What are you trying to compete for with these proposed acquisitions? The wildcard? Because even adding these players does not put us in Cleveland's class. They would still be the superior team by far. No, it's time. Time to tear her up and move in a different direction. Glad to hear the news Dick Allen shared strongly suggesting Sox management is preparing to do just that.

QUOTE (JUSTgottaBELIEVE @ Sep 6, 2016 -> 07:19 PM) Time will tell. I'm just looking forward to very few complaining on these boards once they do move forward with the rebuild. I'm not sure what some people are going to do if they can't complain any more. They are certainly not going to miss what's resulted from the retooling approach of recent years. It's been a brutal several years lately to be a White Sox fan.

QUOTE (JUSTgottaBELIEVE @ Sep 6, 2016 -> 02:01 PM) I did not agree with signing Rollins, Latos, and Avila/Navarro this past offseason. Would have much preferred signing Desmond and Fowler to 3 year deals and someone like Fister to a 1 or 2 year deal while sticking with Flowers for another year once Wieters accepted the QO. I would still give Fowler a 3 year contract this offseason but it's even harder now because they likely won't have a protected 1st pick or a comp pick for losing shark. I think that's where the front office blew it by not truly going all in last offseason. I'd still like to see them go for it this offseason by signing the before mentioned vets that have shown the ability to succeed in the AL and are still producing this year at a much higher level than our current options at C, CF, #5 SP, etc. Still have to be strategic in these signings can't just willy nilly sign whoever is left at the end of the offseason. But again this is tied to payroll constraints so JR needs to open the checkbook a bit wider than he did last offseason if wants the "all in" approach. That's still not going to be near enough. Cleveland and Detroit are #3 & 4, respectively, in league offense this season, while the Sox remain towards the bottom at #12. You are adding Wieters as an upgrade at catcher. Ok, but his sparkling .683 OPS isn't going to put much of a dent in reducing that gap between the Sox and their two main division rivals on offense. Who else are you bringing in that will close that gap and help stifle those who believe a rebuild is in order? Moreland? Still coming up a bit short there, I'm afraid. Similarly, with Cleveland having superior pitching overall to that of the Sox, and Detroit arguably a notch or two higher, how does Volquez and his 1.47 WHIP improve our chances to compete with those two teams? Remember, it's not about upgrading from the garbage we saw this year. It's about upgrading to a point that puts us in a position to win the division and/or compete for a wildcard. I'm afraid the addition of Volquez and return of Petricka and Putnam doesn't get us close to those other two teams, either. In other words, you are far overrating the current roster, and underestimating the extent to which the quantity and quality of upgrades to the team would need to be for the Sox to compete for the postseason next year.

QUOTE (JUSTgottaBELIEVE @ Sep 6, 2016 -> 02:24 PM) And still the only baseball championship that either side of town has witnessed during our lifetime is the one following an offseason of patching obvious holes at catcher, second base, right field, fifth starter, and bullpen with mid-tier free agents and trades. Sound familiar? I think this whole discussion goes back to how far away one thinks this roster is from being a contender. I happen to think filling the obvious holes in the 25-man roster with productive players will result in a competitive team. As much as people keep saying it, last offseason was not "all in." If anything, that was a "stand pat" approach. What was their most expensive signing? Austin Jackson for 1 year at $5MM? I'm advocating signing 4 guys that exceed that type of contract but also don't reach the level of a Cespedes or Encarnacion - more in line with the 2014/2015 offseason approach because I believe the Sox have less holes to fill now than they did in 2014. The "throw anything against the wall and hope it'll stick" approach? Sure, it sounds familiar. It's been happening for quite some time with Williams and Hahn at the helm. Great way to build a team capable of sustainable winning, eh?

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Sep 6, 2016 -> 12:49 PM) I could list busted prospects all day long, with every team. The White Sox rebuilt in 1986, they rebuilt in 1997. According to you, the only "exciting" season they have had was 2005, which wasn't a rebuilding year. Although I don't think you are like others here who really want the White Sox to fail because they would rather moan and point out how much smarter they are, I do think you want them to win. So, they rebuild, and did a pretty good job of it twice, yet it didn't meet your criteria. Why would you give up possibly getting lucky vs. a guaranteed 4 or 5 years of being awful and then if everything goes right it still may not work out to your requirements? They did do a good job at the rebuild both times they did it during the times you referenced, and to use Reinsdorf speak, they got from Point A to Point B. Where they came up short was getting to Point C, but that's not what we are talking about here. We are not at Point B right now, so what I'd personally like to see is the effort to do the Point A to Point B exercise again, and then deal with getting to Point C when the time comes. Right now, I really don't know at what point this team is at all. Seems stuck somewhere in the middle, quite honestly.

QUOTE (JUSTgottaBELIEVE @ Sep 6, 2016 -> 12:26 PM) It's not ironic at all. Would you agree that missing on the prospects involved in a Sale/Q package is much more detrimental to the long term future of the franchise than missing on a 2-year FA deal for someone like Moreland or Volquez? How about we don't miss on those prospects? That is a possible outcome, you know. In one case, you no longer have Sale/Q and a bunch of crappy prospects/major leaguers. Or you have a bunch of elite prospects who go onto outperform the mid-tier band aids you are suggesting the team pursue. In the other case, you still have Sale/Q and a bunch o crappy prospects/major leaguers. You mean like we have this year, last year, and if we go forward with what you propose, most likely next year as well. If you are going the total rebuild option you better be damn sure you have the best front office and scouts in place to make those decisions - do you think we do? It's ironic that anyone thinking a front office that has failed with previous trades and FA acquisitions will excel in a total rebuild. That makes no sense to me. We haven't had a chance to see what this particular front office can do with a rebuild. Sadly, we've seen what they are unable to accomplish with the kind of retooling you seem to still be interested in them doing. Sign a few mid-tier free agents this offseason, (like the last few years? No thanks! Losing formula!) a new manager, and see if it comes together. If it's still broken come mid-late June then there better be a clean out of the front office and let the new front office start the rebuild process in late July by unloading Melky, Frazier, Gonzalez, and Robertson. You do realize with a bunch of rentals with the likes of Melky, Frazier, etc. that we will get little in return that would make any meaningful contribution to a successful rebuild. They can even wait until the following offseason to trade Sale and Q if they don't get blown away at the deadline. As Mother always said, don't put off till tomorrow what you can get done today! Those guys are under team control thru 2019 for goodness sake. Which is why today they are more valuable and will garner more in a return than they will a year from now.