VAfan

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Aug 8, 2014 -> 07:01 PM) His players respect him. His "strategy" isn't nearly as bad as some advertise. When you don't have benefit of hindsight, the moves he was "supposed" to make don't always work out, and the "stupid" moves he makes often do work out and are called lucky. For some, he is wrong even if he is correct. And just like the made up Greg Walker philosophy of lift and pull, the lack of fire and passion Robin supposedly has is totally false. He isn't Ditka, which apparently is the model Chicagoans believe to be the best model, yet no one wants to work or play under that kind of buffoon. Robin keeps White Sox business in house. I don't always agree with every move he makes, every line-up he makes out, but you look at the talent level. At some point this year the Sox absolutely needed a new C,2B, LF, RF,DH, a totally different bench, the SS needed to be traded. The 3 positions people have been happy with 1B, 3B, and CF all spent time on the DL. Only one AL team has a higher team ERA, yet, the team is damn near .500. I cannot believe that could possibly mean the manager was horrible too. Thanks for trying. I'm still not buying it. I don't think he manages the bullpen very well, and has helped the team lose multiple games this way. I thought the lack of fire was useful for his first season only, when he was the anti-Ozzie. Since then, not so much. I don't see any postgame shows, but I can't recall him ever drawing any blame toward himself and away from his players. He seems content to have teams pound us in the last couple of weeks (16, 16, and 13 runs) without ever asking for any knock-down pitches to show we had some fight in us. He seems to stick with guys way too long. (E.g., Having Beckham hit 2nd for more than a month after he proved he was a zero in that spot. Going back and back to Bellisario in critical game situations only to see him rack up loss after loss. Batting Adam Dunn third for a long time. Sticking with Dunn against lefties even when he had proven he was horrible that year.) Fielding a team with horrible fundamentals, especially last year. I just don't see any redeeming qualities. As for Buck Showalter, I think he's done a FABULOUS job with the Orioles, though I used to love how Ozzie Guillen would always tweak him. Showalter is a details freak, but he's gotten the Orioles to believe in themselves and compete in what was the toughest division in baseball for a long time, with the Yankees and Red Sox always one-upping each other. The O's were doormats for two decades until Showalter came along. He's had the benefit of young drafted talent, but he's really helped with the psychological side. He's also been masterful at bullpen management. By comparison, Ventura seems totally overmatched to me. The only reason I can see why he was hired is he was beloved as a former White Sox player. Should we make Frank Thomas our next manager?

QUOTE (scs787 @ Aug 8, 2014 -> 08:12 PM) No, this team wasn't supposed to "Lose", it was supposed to get better, and it has. I went back and looked at some preseason predictions threads and sadly I didn't see you post any predictions, but there was a preseason poll that got 41 votes...All but 4 votes had this as an 80-83 win team or less. I'm sure Hahn thought the same thing. This year was about seeing what they had in Abreu, Eaton, Avi, Conor/Davidson, and a few of the other young guys.....Lets say Abreu ended up being a Viciedo clone, Eaton is nothing more than the guy he was last year, Avi was a bulky singles hitter he looked like at times last year, Conor was the player we saw last year and Davidson is the player he is this year?....Why go all out on signings when you have so many questions on offense (and of course pitching wise)/ All the signings you mentioned are all about tradeable assets. Had they performed, they're all probably traded. Not sure how you could go back to those prediction threads, but I'm glad you did. I think it reaffirms my point. Everyone thought this would be a .500 team. Well, .500 puts you in range of the playoffs in the current format of MLB. If you are there at the trading deadline, then you get to make a choice -- go for it, or sell off and try to go for it next year. None of that changes the fact that Hahn blew the bullpen part of this equation, plain and simple. But don't try to tell me that THE PLAN WAS NOT TO CONTEND. That's BS!! And if that was really Rick Hahn's plan, then he should be fired.

This thread is ridiculously long. I just have a question for all of those posters here who would defend Robin Ventura as the White Sox manager. What do you see as Robin Ventura's strengths as a manager? What is he bringing to the table that is helping the White Sox win ballgames? No manager is perfect. All of them have flaws. But they've got to have enough strengths to overcome those flaws. What are they in Robin's case?

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Aug 8, 2014 -> 01:47 PM) Exactly. The team was SUPPOSED to have no shot at winning. The fact that a bunch of stuff went better than expected should make us HAPPY, not make us b**** about not having an elite bullpen. Let's not be spoiled children. This could be a fun offseason and a fun 2015. This is the point that I think is TOTAL BS!! The team was "SUPPOSED" to lose in 2014?? If Rick Hahn told Jerry Reinsdorf and Kenny Williams that "I HAVE NO PLAN ON WINNING IN 2014, AND IN FACT, MY PLAN IS TO CONTINUE LOSING IN 2014" what do you think they would have said? Like any good boss, they would have said -- come back to me when you have a better plan. You may sit here as a casual fan and spin out 5 years plans and hypothetical trades, and fantasize in August 2014 about next year's lineup, but I GUARANTEE you that's not what Rick Hahn's job is. That's not the reality of running the Chicago White Sox. In the real world, the Chicago White Sox have to try to compete every year, even if they are also rebuilding to strengthen their club for the future. They aren't the Cubs, who get a perennial pass and adoration from clueless fans regardless of the crappy teams they put on the field. So, Rick Hahn did a lot of things this offseason to both rebuild the team, and get it to compete for a playoff spot in 2014. If he didn't care about the latter, there are a lot of things he wouldn't have done, because they have no future with the club. Why keep Adam Dunn? Why not just dump him for as much salary relief as you can get? Why keep De Aza? He's also got no long term future, and is the highest paid outfielder on the team, as a BACKUP! Why re-sign Paul Konerko for another year? He's going to retire at year's end. Why dump money into signing Downs and Bellisario and Paulino? None of these guys could be expected to last even if they pitched as well as they had in the past. Why not unload John Danks at the trade deadline for salary relief, even if you get nothing back? More money to spend in the future. Why is Gordon Beckham still here? You might be "HAPPY" about a Sox team that is going to miss the playoffs again, and is sinking like a rock now that the complete collapse of the bullpen has sapped any remaining chances the team had of making a late season run. I see a team that had tremendous POTENTIAL, that could have made the playoffs in 2014 with a better bullpen plan and a better manager. When that potential is undermined and lost, I'm disappointed. And I think the guy who put the plan together deserves to be criticized, because with a better plan, the team could have made a run. As I said earlier, I think Rick Hahn would AGREE. I'm guessing he's learned a lot from the mistakes he's made, and isn't planning on repeating them.

BTW -- why do you re-sign Paul Konerko if you don't think he can help you compete in 2014?

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Aug 5, 2014 -> 08:49 AM) I'm not calling them simpletons or anything similar, but when threads like these pop-up, I really DO question whether a lot of people here understand the plan. 10 months ago, at the end of the most excruciating Sox season I've ever experienced, 95% of our posters rightfully (IMO) wanted to clean house. Now halfway through the FIRST season of this, after some frankly incredible strides in the "cleaning house" plan having taken place, we're ripping baseball operations for not having enough bullpen depth to compete? You've got to be kidding me. Glad to know you aren't calling me a simpleton or anything similar. But it's no excuse to not doing a better job of building a bullpen that could reasonably compete in 2014. As I've said, I think Rick Hahn had a plan to do that, it just was a VERY BAD plan. I also think he underestimated the value of a competent bullpen, or he would have put at least a little more attention to this area. That DOESN'T mean that I thought he should have spent tens of millions to buy expensive bullpen pieces on a team not ready to compete for the World Series -- even if they were ready to compete for a playoff spot this year. As I said above, rebuilding and contending are not mutually exclusive. And you can't convince me that Rick Hahn is allowed by Jerry Reinsdorf and Kenny Williams to make a plan going into a season that says -- "you know, we are going to ask our fans to back us, but we aren't really going to have a plan to compete this season, it's going to have to wait for another year or two." I just don't think the White Sox think that way.

QUOTE (CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Aug 4, 2014 -> 10:38 PM) And most of his supporters never said he's infallible. In another thread I said he failed with potluck signees who could have had trade value but they all underperformed. I've chided SSk2 before about giving up on the season too early . Yes I want the Sox to contend every year. That doesn't mean I can't see the plan the Hahn is doing and I support what he's done and will continue to do . GM's make mistakes , they are human. If that was your point thank you Capt. Obvious I'm pretty sure we know that. Love the backtrack. Nice!

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Aug 4, 2014 -> 10:13 PM) Dude this isn't Playstation. You can't just leave time paused until you complete all your deals. Of course he WISHES he had a great bullpen, too, but it was very rightfully NOT the top priority this offseason. You are being completely unreasonable expecting him to have fixed literally every part of this team. Marvel at the progress that was made, ALL of it theoretically sustainable, and look forward to more of it to come. I swear sometimes it feels like people follow sports JUST so they can have a scapegoat for something. I'm not a "dude," okay?

Here was the original question: "Is this bullpen Rick Hahn's fault?" The answer is obviously YES. To everyone who thinks he "couldn't" have fielded a better bullpen (which is frankly an absurd view) the answer is still YES. And I think Rick Hahn would stand up like a man, take responsibility for the bad choices he made, and agree.

QUOTE (CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Aug 4, 2014 -> 09:12 PM) I've tried this tactic with him. Brought up getting on those who critique Ventura in hindsight or 2nd guessing him and while he gets on Hahn. But he swears he isn't using hindsight, says he was critical of that trade from get go ,oops ,wait now its from the start of spring training thanks to SSk2 doing some detective work. I was like fine so which plan have you advocated the Sox (Hahn) follow ? Contend every year , spend the max on payroll every year or Hahn's plan to build up the core 1st because its a rebuild and try for sustained success while limiting costs for but spending more for special occasions, because the Sox don't have a lot of things going for them financially to be able to do both at the same time. He danced around the question every time never giving a straight answer. Then he went on the attack trying to divert my attention from him onto me, but I know his M.O. so I didn't bite. I politely called him a guy who plays devil's advocate to stir the pot which others would call a troll. I'm not even as anti troll as most people on a message board are because it can generate conversation for Jason's sake and the sake of keeping Soxtalk around awhile it aint all bad . I'm not on here all that much, so I don't know the history, but I think it's total BS to label a guy like Dick Allen a "troll" when he's been on Sox Talk longer than you have.

QUOTE (SoxPride18 @ Aug 4, 2014 -> 04:36 PM) This x100000 Sox arent even done with that. One more starter and a couple more bats and then you can address the bullpen. This is so absurd. Do you think Jerry Reinsdorf hired a GM who cant talk and chew gum at the same time? Baseball isn't a game where you throw away seasons because you can only do one thing at a time.

QUOTE (CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Aug 4, 2014 -> 04:34 PM) The plans was ,and you seem to be in the minority here, to build a solid core of young position players and starting pitchers . Players that do not usually fluctuate in performance as much as bullpen pieces do and to have enough money left over to cross that bullpen bridge when they got to that point of having that core in place. How long will it have been once the Cubs or Astro's or the Pirates or the Royal get to the playoffs ? How long has it been since the A's became winners for the last few years. Didn't you use the Indian's and Royals as an example of better bullpens ? Do you think they are going to make the playoffs ? Do you think they have a chance to win the World Series this year ? Yes the bullpen was not at the top of the list of priorities. Position players and starting pitching will always be given more priority. When you can come up with a formula for how to determine which bullpen pieces to acquire I will say a bullpen should be a priority. Until then you and Greg and Dick enjoy your w(h)ine. Why is building a solid core of young position players and starting pitchers, AND having a plan for a competent bullpen MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE?? I guarantee that's NOT how Rick Hahn sees it. If he did -- if he had your approach -- he SHOULD be fired. The simple fact is the Sox could have fielded a much better bullpen without spending a lot more money. Rick Hahn made some very bad investments, and took far too much risk hoping that Nate Jones could step into the closing role and everyone else would fall in behind him. For that, he deserves the fair criticism I've raised here. Are you enjoying the Sox 2014 season????

QUOTE (scs787 @ Aug 4, 2014 -> 04:28 PM) Not a year after losing 99 games. Had they known Abreu was gonna be one of the best players in baseball, Adam Eaton was gonna be one of the better leadoff hitters in baseball, Conor Gillaspie was gonne be in the top 10 in BA, and Lexi was gonna be the "offensive force" he has been this year, then yes, they probably put forth more effort into making the bullpen good. Say Abreu needs a year to adjust, Adam Eaton is the .252/.314/.360 hitter he was last year, Gillaspie is the .245/.305/.390 hitter he was last year, and Lexi is the sun .700 OPS hitter he's been the last 2 years.....What good would that team be with a good bullpen? What this totally misses is that, BEFORE the season, there were a lot of people on Sox Talk who thought the Sox would be around a .500 team. And .500 puts you in contention for the last wildcard spot in today's MLB. This goes back to the "rebuilding" BS that keeps getting repeated here. I GUARANTEE that Rick Hahn didn't dole out multi-year multi-million dollar contracts to Bellisario and Downs thinking they would be total failures. In other words, Hahn wouldn't agree that they PLANNED on mediocrity, and were just waiting until 2015 to start building a bullpen. The problem was that HE HAD A BAD PLAN to field a competent bullpen IN 2014, not that his plan was to field a BAD BULLPEN. Accordingly, the answer to my post question -- "Is this bullpen Rick Hahn's fault?" -- the answer is clearly YES.

QUOTE (SoxPride18 @ Aug 4, 2014 -> 04:17 PM) I agree, but with Putnam now hurt, there literally isn't anyone that has had a good year besides Petricka. Webb has shown nothing in critical situations, Guerra enough said, and the others just haven't proved anything. Belisario at least had experience in high leverage situations. And for a stretch he was dominant in the 8th inning role. Webb/Petricka were actually Ventura's 8-9th inning options, and he used them that way this week. The problem was he FIRST put in Bellisario to give the Twins 3 baserunners, all of whom scored and cost the Sox the ballgame.

QUOTE (SoxPride18 @ Aug 4, 2014 -> 04:11 PM) Yes the bullpen didn't work out. Did anybody realistically see this team have a chance go to the playoffs? Answer is no, not at all. In a matter of a year and a half, Hahn has netted Avi Garcia, Adam Eaton, Jose Abreu, Connor Gillaspie, Francellis Montas, Carlos Rodon, Cleuius Rondon, JB Wendelken and Leury Garcia. That right there is great given the time he has been on the job. As other members have posted, guys like Belisario and Downs had good years last year, but have/were been so bad this year, who can predict that. Bullpens are such a crap shoot now, its really a dime and dozen position now. Notice I'm not calling for Rick Hahn to be fired. I think he's done some great work. But you can't defend a lousy job of building a bullpen by saying he's done a great job elsewhere. It doesn't change the dual points I've been making. He had a bad plan, and he undervalued the importance of a good bullpen for a team's W-L record. Yes, bullpens can be up and down. But I disagree that it can't be planned for properly.

Also, I'd just like to clarify one point, because I've also been highly critical of Robin Ventura for mismanaging our bullpen. We have a crappy bullpen. About that I think even Rick Hahn's defenders would agree. My problem with Robin Ventura has been that he's made things worse than they needed to be by using guys like Bellisario in critical games. There's just no way you should give Bellisario the opportunity to LOSE 8 GAMES! He did it in back-to-back starts by Scott Carroll against the Twins, well AFTER everyone could see that Bellisario was toast. Both losses blunted what would otherwise have been a Sox hot streak back to .500 play. He also did it in 2012 with Matt Thornton, who was given the opportunity to lose 10 games for a contending team. At some point, you've got to use different options.

QUOTE (CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Aug 4, 2014 -> 03:26 PM) Of course they have plenty of money and they didn't spend all of it this year because they are rebuilding rebuilding rebuilding. What part of that do you not understand ? You must be on something if you can't comprehend .What they don't have is unlimited resources to spend on the most unpredictable way there is in baseball to make the right choices besides the draft and that is the bullpen. The payroll will be at its max ,whatever that is when, the Sox decide they need a major piece to put them over the top. Otherwise it can't be sustained for long that way in this market. This is the argument that gets me. "Rebuilding, rebuilding, rebuilding." WTF does that mean? To you it seems to mean -- put a crappy bullpen out there because you don't have a better plan -- then when the crappy bullpen sinks the season, tell the fans "we were just rebuilding; thanks for spending your good money coming to our games; we didn't really plan on contending this year anyway so it doesn't really matter that our bullpen stinks!!" I'm confident that's NOT what the Sox brass intended. Instead, they had a plan, it was just a BAD PLAN. It was also a plan that undervalued the difference that a good bullpen can make on a team's W-L record. For both of those reasons, Rick Hahn deserves considerable criticism. It's NO DEFENSE for Hahn to say "rebuilding." And, in fact, if we were able to get Rick Hahn to answer this question honestly, I bet he would agree that he messed up the bullpen this season. I just hope he learns his lesson.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Aug 4, 2014 -> 02:32 PM) Not really. A bad pen is something that tends to happen when your back two guys get hurt. Not really. Bellisario isn't hurt. Scott Downs never got hurt. Javy Guerra, a waiver-wire pickup who's blown 5 saves, isn't hurt. Rienzo isn't hurt. And Matt Lindstrom, even when he was healthy, wasn't a viable closer. The plan was bad, and it came out worse because Nate Jones hasn't played. But Nate Jones being healthy wouldn't have saved this bullpen. Just accept that Rick Hahn deserves criticism for a bad bullpen plan, and one that undervalued the importance of a good bullpen. I'm not arguing that he should be fired.

QUOTE (staxx @ Aug 4, 2014 -> 02:41 PM) As a previous poster suggested, the bullpen is one of the final pieces that you address. There was no reason to make any substantial commitments going into a year where many thought we would be still far from competing. With that said, RH is not the one throwing meatballs that get launched out of the park. Injuries to your 2 main bullpen pieces with one bad luck signing will put nearly any bullpen in the MLB into a bad situation. But this is a mistake, and is part of my criticism of Hahn for undervaluing the importance of a good bullpen. If you look at the stats I posted earlier, a great bullpen versus a bad one can mean as much as a 10-game swing in the standings. 10 GAMES! That right there is enough of a difference to turn an also-ran into a contender. You also mistakenly think that all the Sox needed for everything to go swimmingly was for Nate Jones and Matt Lindstrom not to get hurt. At least I'm assuming that's who you mean by the "2 main bullpen pieces." The problem with that is that Nate Jones had zero saves going into this season, and Matt Lindstrom is NOT and was NOT a viable option as a closer, even he had remained healthy all year. Hahn went into the year without a viable option at closer, and things went downhill from there. A bad plan, and one worthy of criticism.

QUOTE (CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Aug 4, 2014 -> 02:42 PM) They pretty much are mutually exclusive unless you have great attendance, a huge TV contract, a deep farm system, a deep pockets owner willing to spend anything it takes to contend, lack of injuries, and a hit or two on your wishful thinking signees . Which of these do the Sox have? Zilch , zip, nada, goose egg. That's 6 things a team usually needs to compete .Even getting a few of them and you compete. This is just FALSE. The Sox this year are both rebuilding, and had Hahn had a better bullpen plan, would also be contending. And they could have done it without spending much more money.

You can rebuild and contend at the same time. The two are not mutually exclusive. Many on this board thought, going into the season, that the Sox would be around .500. Which puts you into contention for the playoffs (if not the World Series) in today's MLB. Rick Hahn didn't intentionally build a bad bullpen, or completely ignore the pen on the idea that it wasn't worth doing anything until the team was ready to "contend." He did, however, have a very bad plan, and undervalued the importance of a good pen, and he deserves criticism on both counts, since with a better plan, and a better pen, the 2014 White Sox would be vying for first place in the AL Central, not to mention a wild card slot. I think these points are undeniable.

Another point. To those who think Hahn didn't focus on the pen because we were "rebuilding" but he'll fix it next year, because it's easy to fix, doesn't that make out Hahn as a total moron? I mean, if it's easy to fix the pen in a year, then why didn't Hahn do it this year? My opinion is that Hahn tried to fix the pen, but did a very bad job of it, starting with the fact the team had no real closer once it traded Reed. I'm not saying the Reed trade was ill conceived on its own. I would say without a backup plan for a pen without Reed, it was extremely risky, and the risk Hahn took blew up in his face. Hahn did the same thing with the starting rotation, but on that score, he's been much more fortunate. Erik Johnson and Felipe Paulino blew up, but the Sox have gotten by with wire-waiver claim Hector Noesi and 29-year-old rookie Scott Carroll. Plus, John Danks has pitched much better than might have been expected.

I don't get the "it's a rebuilding year, therefore it's okay to trot out a horrible pen" argument at all. The Sox don't do "rebuilding." At least they never did under Kenny Williams. Granted, Hahn changed out much of the core of the team, but it wasn't with the idea that they'd still suck. No one can convince me that that was ever even thought of among the Sox brass. The problem was, he completely undervalued the importance of a good bullpen. Here are the sorted stats for team bullpens for 2014. http://tinyurl.com/my2e7bh This gives a pretty good idea of the value of a good pen. The Sox pen has lost 22 games, tops in the majors. Minnesota and KC are near the bottom, with 12 pen losses. The Tigers pen has lost 14 games. Cleveland's pen has lost 15 games. Look at the difference between save opportunities and saves. For the Sox it's 17 games (25 saves in 42 chances). Cleveland is next worse at 13, with Minnesota at 11, and Detroit and KC at 10. The Tigers bullpen ERA is actually worse than the Sox. But Minnesota and KC are both more than a run better than the Sox. Cleveland has the best bullpen ERA in the AL Central, and their relievers are 25-15. So, swap out the Sox bullpen for the ones in Cleveland, KC, or Minnesota, and the Sox are vying with the Tigers for the AL Central lead. It's not because those teams have spent a lot more money on their pen, or money that would be beyond the White Sox' resources. They've just done a much better job filling those holes.

After today, there can no longer be any pretense that the White Sox have a bullpen. Here's who's useful: Jake Petricka. 2.09 ERA Zach Putnam. 2.35 ERA. Now on the DL. Here's who's mediocre, but looks great compared to the alternatives. Daniel Webb. 3.60 ERA Matt Lindstrom. 3.32 ERA. Now on minor league rehab assignment. Here's who's less than useful; he lost today's game, and has blown 5 saves. Javy Guerra. 3.45 ERA Here's what's like pouring gasoline on a fire: Ronald Bellisario. 6.23 ERA. 8 losses. 4 blown saves. Andre Rienzo. 6.11 ERA. Horrible since his 4-0 start to the season. Erik Surkamp. 7.84 ERA. Now worse than Scott Downs and his 6.01 ERA, and Donnie Veal's 7.50 ERA. Taylor Thompson. 10.13 ERA. Already sent down. How could the Sox expect this group of arms to form a viable major league bullpen? If the Sox had a decent bullpen, they should be in second place in the AL Central, with a pretty good shot at making the playoffs. If they had a great bullpen, they could be battling the Tigers for first place. It's not hard to see 7-8 games going the Sox' way with a better bullpen this season. I'm not sure what the solution was. I'm not really calling into question the Reed trade. Certainly, Nate Jones' loss has hurt. The Scott Downs signing was horrible. The Bellisario signing is looking worse every day. Javy Guerra was an attempt at shoring up a bad situation, but it hasn't worked out very well. Rienzo failed as a starter after a quick start, and looks worse out of the bullpen. I put some of the fault at Robin Ventura's feet, because I feel he's poorly managed even the limited resources he's had. But Rick Hahn needs to take the larger share of the blame, as he hasn't given the team more than 2-3 viable relievers, one of whom is now on the DL (Putnam). There's a lengthy thread on here about the 2015 lineup. But Rick Hahn's first job ought to be to fix the bullpen.

QUOTE (VAfan @ Aug 2, 2014 -> 04:28 PM) Not sure why all the hype over 2015. From where I'm sitting, the Sox are still playing to make the postseason in 2014. With the offense clicking again, and a current homestand against Minnesota and Texas, I think the Sox could be as high as second in the AL Central, and above .500, over the next 5 games. And with Avisail Garcia and Lindstrom on minor league rehab assignments likely to join the team soon after that, I'm not sure why the Sox can't play well enough after that to put them in the thick of the last wildcard spot race. This is also why I'm not among those who think the Sox will dump players on waiver-wire deals. There will be plenty of time to sort out next year's lineup during the offseason. For now, I'd like to see if this Sox team can make a run. I take it back. After losing a home series to the Twins, having a manager who doesn't manage well, and having a bullpen with so many failed players, I don't think there's any chance this team can make a run.