VAfan

I would count tonight's loss to the Twins as another game blown by the bad managing of Robin Ventura. What is Bellisario doing coming in to start the 8th inning at home with a two run lead? The last time Carroll pitched against the Twins, just last week, Robin brought in Bellisario in the 7th inning with a 1-run lead. Guess what happened then? No outs, 3 baserunners, all of whom scored, in a 4-3 loss. That's the game that started this thread in the first place. (Only most of the criticism was focused on the way Ventura mismanaged the offense in the 9th, rather than the mistaken turn to Bellisario in a tight game.) Tonight, with only one inning to get to the Sox closer, Robin turns to THE WORST CHOICE. It's maddening. Sox should have won both games, and be a game over .500, instead of 3 games under. Just on THESE TWO GAMES. Of course, they aren't the only ones.

Not sure why all the hype over 2015. From where I'm sitting, the Sox are still playing to make the postseason in 2014. With the offense clicking again, and a current homestand against Minnesota and Texas, I think the Sox could be as high as second in the AL Central, and above .500, over the next 5 games. And with Avisail Garcia and Lindstrom on minor league rehab assignments likely to join the team soon after that, I'm not sure why the Sox can't play well enough after that to put them in the thick of the last wildcard spot race. This is also why I'm not among those who think the Sox will dump players on waiver-wire deals. There will be plenty of time to sort out next year's lineup during the offseason. For now, I'd like to see if this Sox team can make a run.

Year ▴Age Tm Lg G PA AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS OPS+TB Conor Gillaspie stats at 26: 2014 26 CHW AL 82 334 303 41 98 24 3 4 38 0 2 26 49 .323 .377 .462 .839 135 140 Wade Boggs stats at 26: 1984 26 BOS AL 158 726 625 109 203 31 4 6 55 3 2 89 44 .325 .407 .416 .823 125 260

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 30, 2014 -> 02:47 PM) That supports Ventura walking Harper to get to Zimmerman. Which is exactly what happened. I guess it's hard to argue with you and WiteSoxFan if you are so set on arguing absurdities.

QUOTE (chitownsportsfan @ Jul 30, 2014 -> 01:20 PM) On a related note, I've been critical of how Robin has treated Webb (pretty much as the 4th or 5th guy out of the pen) but now it's time to take off the kid gloves and let him see some high leverage innings. They wanted to bring him along slow well OK great, now put him under a bit more pressure and see how he responds. Stuff wise, he has the potential to be a good setup or decent closer imo, certainly as good as Reed was for the Sox. Exactly!! The closer job should have been between Petricka and Webb, once Jones was gone and Lindstrom first semi-failed in the job and then made the choice easy by getting hurt. Putnam should have made the 3rd guy in the "close games" bullpen group. In addition to getting better performance out of these guys, they are guys the Sox can potentially groom and cultivate like they did with Reed and Jones. Whereas Bellisario and Guerra and Downs were all rent-a-players with no future in the Sox pen.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 30, 2014 -> 12:58 PM) Am I the only one that finds it odd Vafan doesn't like Ventura because he walked Bryce Harper with runners on 2nd and 3rd last season with a RHP on the mound? On that date, Harper was hitting .417. Zimmerman .241. Were you at the game? Santiago v. Harper was 1000% better as a choice than a worn out Axelrod facing Ryan Zimmerman, when he'd already spent almost 100 pitches in 3.2 innings and wasn't going to give you anything more. Harper versus righties in 2013: .300, .388, .560 Harper versus lefties in 2013: .214, .327, .321 Enough said!

Let's look at the Sox actual W-L under Robin versus their expected W-L using the pythagorean formula, and then compare it to Ozzie Guillen's record. 2012: Actual W-L 85-77. Expected 88-74. -3 games 2013: Actual 63-99. Expected 67-95. -4 games 2014: Actual 52-55. Expected 52-55. 0 games Overall for Robin -7. Here's Ozzie's record: 2011: +4 2010: +2 2009: -1 2008: 0 2007: +5 2006: +2 2005: +8 2004: -1 Overall for Ozzie, +19.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Jul 30, 2014 -> 12:48 PM) This was almost certainly an issue of testing and putting faith into a young starting pitcher, trying to help him gain confidence. It was the 9th game of the season. You're crazy to think that he's going to start going to the bullpen when the pitcher has given up 3 runs and the game is tied in the 4th inning, even if he did have a very high pitch count. Except that he did go to the bullpen one batter later, AFTER he let the "young starting pitcher" blow the game.

QUOTE (shysocks @ Jul 30, 2014 -> 12:32 PM) This guy! He was by far the hottest reliever at the time and the bullpen is full of interchangeable guys who live and die with their BABIPs. I think Robin is a subpar manager too, but that isn't one of the reasons. It's 80% because he intentionally walked Jason Giambi. So let's say you thought Bellisario should have been the guy. I think that can be argued. The problem is, I don't think it could have been argued after a couple of Bellisario outings. He went from being decent to good in a set up role, to being pretty bad as a closer. And as for Javy Guerra being a set up guy, of course I understand that. But he can still blow a save in that role. And he's tied with Bellisario for 4 blown saves on the team in only 23 appearances. Which means he entered in a hold situation, and gave up the lead.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Jul 30, 2014 -> 12:38 PM) There has never been a doubt in my mind that he's been a much, much better manager than Ozzie Guillen. Really? Ozzie Guillen managed the White Sox to their only World Series win in yours or my lifetime. For that alone, he has earned my eternal respect, even if some of the things he did as a manager drove me crazy.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Jul 30, 2014 -> 12:31 PM) In Axelrod's 2nd start and and the Sox 9th game of the season, Ventura put faith in his young starting pitcher and tested him to see if he could get out a right handed hitter in a crucial point of the game. This was a week after he went 5.2 innings of 1 run baseball against the Mariners and King Felix. He failed. He then strung together 4 quality starts following that game, so maybe Axelrod learned something about himself in that game. Even if you disagreed with it, I think you are being incredibly nitpicky with this. Even in hindsight, I have no problem with the decision that was made. Axelrod was DONE. Almost 100 pitches in the bottom of the 4th. This was NOT an issue about "testing" his young pitcher. And it certainly was not a "toss up" decision. It was a completely BONEHEADED move that is made to look more stupid by his comments after the game. I don't care if you continue to have faith in Robin Ventura as a tactical game manager. Robin lost me that game, and nothing he's done since has changed my mind.

Here's a good question -- How many here think Robin Ventura is an improvement over Ozzie Guillen as a manager? I would say he was an improvement over Ozzie's last year managing the Sox, when Ozzie was trying to get fired so he could manage the Marlins. Otherwise, despite Ozzie's faults, I would take him over Ventura hands down. Guillen did some things that drove me crazy, but he did a very good job managing pitchers. And he also put the Sox on the map, getting them to believe they could compete for and win a World Series. I don't see any of that in Robin.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 30, 2014 -> 12:12 PM) [/b] I noticed you said last year, and not this year. Does that mean they improved this year in your opinion? I know they have in mine. We are seeing fewer base running issues, crisper throw execution, and a generally baseball smarter team (with a couple of individual exceptions). Even a guy like Alexei who had one of the worst baseball IQ's I have ever seen for most of his tenure here, isn't really making noticeable mistakes anymore. I did say last year. I would certainly hope a gold glove winning manager would have been so disgusted by the lack of fundamentals from last year that he wouldn't screw it up so badly this year. I think Ventura learned a lesson there, and has improved. That doesn't make him a good manager. He still blows games regularly with bad bullpen management, and the kind of errors highlighted in the game that started this thread. And he still appears to sleepwalk through his job.

As for how many games has Robin cost the team in 2014? Well, how many blown saves does Bellisario have? Does anyone here think Bellisario should have been the closer when Lindstrom went down? Or why does he seem to have an infatuation with Javy Guerra in tight games, when he's blown saves in all 4 of his opportunities?

Now, let me give you one example game why Ventura drives me crazy. It was last season in Washington, where I got to see the game in person. Here's the write up: http://scores.espn.go.com/mlb/recap?gameId=330411120 So there you have Robin himself saying "you're rolling the dice either way" and "you take your chance" and "Harper's hot." But it leaves out some critical information. At that point in the game -- only the 4th inning -- Dylan Axelrod had already thrown close to 100 pitches. He wasn't going to get you into the 5th, or 6th, or 7th. So there was NO POINT in having him extend to pitch to Ryan Zimmerman. Ventura also had Hector Santiago completely warmed up in the pen, ready to pitch to the lefty Bryce Harper. And Santiago was sharp. When he finally entered the game, AFTER Ventura let Axelrod LOSE IT, he threw 2.1 innings without giving up a hit. So what does Ventura do in a game the White Sox had just tied 3-3? He lets his worn-out starter stay in, intentionally walk Bryce Harper, and then face Ryan Zimmerman, INSTEAD of yanking his starter (who was gone anyway before he got any more outs) for a fresh lefty from the pen to face Harper, with two outs. Here's the play-by-play from the 4th inning. Dylan Axelrod pitching for Chicago CHW WSH W Ramos popped out to first. 3 3 D Haren doubled to deep right. 3 3 D Span flied out to center. 3 3 J Werth singled to left, D Haren to third. 3 3 D Haren scored, J Werth to second on wild pitch by D Axelrod. 3 4 B Harper intentionally walked. 3 4 R Zimmerman doubled to deep right, J Werth and B Harper scored. 3 6 H Santiago relieved D Axelrod. 3 6 A LaRoche struck out looking. 3 6 3 Runs, 3 Hits, 0 Errors The Sox could have won this game. After Werth's single, and BEFORE Axelrod throws a wild pitch to let Washington take the lead, just bring in Santiago to face Harper. Santiago was sharp. Axelrod was TOAST. Simple decision. But not to Robin Ventura. "You're rolling the dice either way." WTF????? REALLY????? Not only does he fail to make the right move, he acts after the game like it was a toss-up!!! I haven't had any respect for Robin Ventura's game management skills since.

Still waiting for someone defending Robin to argue that he's helped the Sox win more games than they would have with an average manager. You can take whatever you want into account. Instead, all I've read is that, well, Bobby Cox and Joe Torre weren't great managers at first. Which seems to me a backhanded admission that Robin Ventura isn't a good manager now either. Sorry, but we aren't debating whether Robin Ventura might become a good manager at some hypothetical time in the future, AFTER he stops making the many poor decisions he's been making over the last 2+ years. We're debating whether Ventura is a good manager NOW, and I think those of us who argue he's below par are winning the argument rather handily. Also, to the reasons I gave above for why I think Robin costs the Sox games, I would add last season's horrible fundamentals. We had to be the worst team in baseball fundamentals. To me, that speaks volumes about a manager. Yes, the players execute, but it's the manager's job to get them prepared to play.

I have a question: Does anyone on this thread who is defending Robin Ventura think that he is a GOOD manager, i.e., one who helps the Sox win more games than they would with an AVERAGE manager? I'm firmly in the camp that he's a BAD manager, by which I mean he costs the team games. Aside from the game in question, I've seen multiple games where I think his strategic decisions have cost games, and I don't actually see that many Sox games living in Virginia. I think the only reason Robin seemed to do well his first season was that he was the anti-Ozzie. The team was done with Ozzie's antics, and the veteran team we had then responded well to a little peace and quiet. Going forward, I can't see the Sox winning under Robin. I believe he does a very bad job managing the bullpen, even given the fact that our bullpen is not good. And that, to me, it probably the most important tactical day-to-day job for a manager. He is also often caught not thinking ahead, as is evidenced by the game analysis in this thread. Plus, he comes off as having ZERO energy. This was okay in the year after Ozzie, but since then he comes off as indifferent, sleeping, lethargic, uninterested, etc. The problem is that he's a Sox ICON, which means he's going to be given far too long to manage. Lastly, this week the Hall of Fame recognized two iconic managers -- Tony LaRussa and Bobby Cox. Anyone here see any of their managing qualities in Robin Ventura? I didn't think so.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jul 9, 2014 -> 11:08 PM) I was told "That's a classic Cubs' fans viewpoint" these days...to not care whether we win or lose...about being 5 games, 10 games or preferring 20-30 games under .500 for draft pick position is NOW all of of a sudden being a terrible fan. Yes, everything is completely meaningless, other than Abreu and Sale staying healthy. But it kind of takes any joy out of following a team when they lose in this fashion over and over and over again. It makes you want to just tune out until they actually do have an above-average manager and decent bullpen. Why put yourself through believing in the team over and over again when this happens on a consistent basis? You get what you pay for, as they say. If Marty was still here, even though I could predict with 98% accuracy what he would say...ownership would deserve his criticism. They can't "make us buy into not caring" by rebuilding in this fashion. They should just trade Danks, Ramirez and Viciedo and be done with it. That's why bringing back AJ Pierzynski will have absolutely no point. We need the veteran bullpen equivalent of AJ to lock down games so this team can legitimately learn to win together. All they're learning is how to lose together. If they keep bringing in youngsters who've never won together at the big league level, then it's going to take another 2-3 seasons before everything is right, and even then it might not happen because we never know in the end how long we have a healthy Chris Sale. Aint that the truth!

I just LOVE THAT THIS POST IS ON HERE, because that's EXACTLY what I've been thinking. And frankly, I came to the site to write such a post so I could vent, and here it is! I didn't vote FIRE HIM NOW, though I'd LOVE that. I voted END OF SEASON because that has some more semblance of reality, and it gives him time to prove, or sink, himself. I just think he's a HORRIBLE manager, completely oblivious to game situations, and I'm only a casual observer of the Sox because I live in Virginia and can only catch the occasional game that's on WGN or MLB network. But I would say unscientifically that in about half the games I've seen I thought Robin made a blunder. Not just a judgement call, but a blunder that you point out as weakening the Sox' chances to win the game. The only reason Robin did well in his first year is he was the anti-Ozzie, and the team needed a break from Ozzie at that point. But since then, Robin is dragging this team down. We should be above .500, around where KC is, with the possibility of adding some bullpen help and making a run at a wild card spot. Instead, we've lost tons of winnable games and now have no real chance. It also means that Hahn doesn't really have the chance to evaluate the team for how it should be, which could skew his decision-making going forward. I've been pretty excited about the moves the team has made, but it's a total bummer to think it won't matter what Hahn does because Robin's lousy game management is always going to cost us 6-10 games a year. You can't compete with that kind of disadvantage.

It's absurd to have to vote Chris Sale in. He was not only the winning pitcher last year, he should have been the MVP, and would have been if they hadn't just wired it for Soriano.

Wade Boggs anyone? This occurred to me before I looked up Boggs' line at age 26. Boggs. 1984 26 BOS AL 158 726 625 109 203 31 4 6 55 3 2 89 44 .325 .407 .416 .823 125 260 13 0 8 4 6 Gillaspie. 2014 26 CHW AL 54 223 204 24 69 19 2 0 27 0 1 16 29 .338 .381 .451 .832 130 92 3 0 0 3 0 I'm not suggesting he'll be Boggs going forward. But he also doesn't have the advantage of hitting in Fenway.

QUOTE (beautox @ Jun 6, 2014 -> 08:17 AM) I'll reluctantly buy into the hype of Saladino out of most likely to stick at SS it would be Saladino, Sanchez then Semien in my opinion. He is age appropriate for AAA and he has always had enough tools to be dangerous. For the notion of a "white flag 2.0", I don't buy that and I don't think the fan base would buy that either. Hahn set the expectation that this was going to be a rebuilding year and we would be foolish to hold assets(Ramirez, Beckham, Dunn, Belisario) that would be better served bolstering our minor league rosters with depth and major league ready prospects then be in the hunt for a potential wildcard spot where we could go one and out. I'm sure Hahn will be very active on the offseason as we will need another OF ideally CF or RF and move Garcia to LF. I don't see the Sox trading producing MLB players who are priced appropriately to "bolster our minor league rosters with depth." That makes no sense. And so far, it's not what Hahn has done. The only guy who might fit that bill is the Matt Davidson trade, but I think he only did that deal because he thought Davidson had a shot to make the club this year.

I've said it prior posts. If Dunn finishes the season about where he is now - .223 .365 .440 .805 -- and the Sox stay in contention for at least a wild card, then: A) I don't think he'll be traded, and B) I think there is slightly better than a 50% chance he'll be back, probably on a 2-year deal. I'd guess at roughly half of what he's making now. The Sox will need lefty power. There is no one in their system capable of providing it. And they'd have to spend just as much or more to try to get a free agent to fill Dunn's shoes.

QUOTE (chitownsportsfan @ May 28, 2014 -> 07:15 PM) I dunno Dunn has a wRC+ of 137 (good but hardly elite) and a fWAR of .4. Don't get me wrong I'm tickled to death the big donkey is actually producing like he's supposed to but he's essentially a one year rental and won't net much in return even if he is producing. If the Sox are 10 games under .500 in July they have nothing to lose by just getting some salary back. The Sox aren't going to be 10 games under in July. They are more likely to be 10 games over, though I don't think that's going to happen either. I think we'll hover around .500, but that will keep us in contention into September. If we could sort out the pitching, and got some health back, this team could go on a decent winning streak.

As I posted some time ago, I think the Sox are going to contend for a wild card late into the season -- perhaps all the way -- and won't be making the moves that everyone predicted before the season began. Gordon Beckham, with the offense he's bringing at this point, is part of the solution, not the problem. Alexei Ramirez isn't going anywhere, as he's playing like the second best SS in the game right now. Adam Dunn, as the only real lefty power hitter in the Sox lineup, with decent production and some clutch hits, isn't getting traded during the season. In fact, I think it's likely he gets a new two-year deal in the offseason, albeit at much less money than he's making now. Conor Gillaspie has earned the right to play out the season at 3B. But there's still value in having Matt Davidson in the wings. Frankly, if Davidson were ready, the guy he should replace on the roster, right now, is Paul Konerko, who isn't carrying his weight. The guys the Sox should move are De Aza and Konerko, as they are the worst hitters on the club at the moment. Even Leury Garcia beats their OPS numbers. Konerko won't retire early, unfortunately. And the Sox will likely need to make a trade or a wire pickup to replace De Aza. I expect this latter move to happen near the All-Star break if De Aza is still scuffling along under .200.