BrandoFan Posted February 16, 2004 Share Posted February 16, 2004 I thought pitching and defense have been proven to win championships There is always a limit to everything. Yankees have a better pitching staff than last year. People who diss Kevin Brown never actually look at the stats-- he was one of 5 best pitchers in the majors last year. Contreras will have a 3.75 ERA next year - better than David Wells. Vazquez will have a 3.40 ERA - better than Pettitte. Brown will have a 2.90 ERA - better than Mussina. Mussina will have a 3.20 ERA - better than Clemens Leiber will have 4.00 ERA - better than Weaver. On paper, they win 110+ games. Let's hope they crush the Red Sox and then lose to us in ALCS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted February 16, 2004 Share Posted February 16, 2004 Alright. That is fine. You are giving me some exceptions to the rule. I don't know Raines, Gwynn, Julio Franco? Rickey Henderson? Just because someone played until this age does not mean they were good at that age. Give me a break. Vlad is not there yet, so I will not count him as he is younger than maggs. I think the Yankees are an old team by baseball standards. What is the average age of the league? If the average age is older than the Yanks team average then I will stand corrected. Until then I believe the Yanks are an old injury prone team. I am not arguijng this point with you anymore. You know my opinion on it there is no need to go any further. Just as a question to you....do you think Pedro Martinez is old? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted February 16, 2004 Share Posted February 16, 2004 Any other Sox fans here that don't know Tim Raines?? Never seen him play. Do know he was one of the best baserunners in the history of the game. Very good OBP in his prime. An All-Star. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsideirish Posted February 16, 2004 Share Posted February 16, 2004 There is always a limit to everything. Yankees have a better pitching staff than last year. People who diss Kevin Brown never actually look at the stats-- he was one of 5 best pitchers in the majors last year. Contreras will have a 3.75 ERA next year - better than David Wells. Vazquez will have a 3.40 ERA - better than Pettitte. Brown will have a 2.90 ERA - better than Mussina. Mussina will have a 3.20 ERA - better than Clemens Leiber will have 4.00 ERA - better than Weaver. On paper, they win 110+ games. Let's hope they crush the Red Sox and then lose to us in ALCS. Brando he was also injured a bit last year. When healthy he is good no doubt. I think the Yanks NEED him to be healthy. I don't know how you can speculate and be sure that all these pitchers are going to come through like that. Vazquez coming over to a different league? Leiber one year removed fom surgery? Brown almost 40? There is potential to be really good, but there is potential for it to be very bad as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted February 16, 2004 Share Posted February 16, 2004 I think the Yankees are an old team by baseball standards. 1998 Yankees were no spring chickens either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsideirish Posted February 16, 2004 Share Posted February 16, 2004 Just as a question to you....do you think Pedro Martinez is old? Just a question to you. Are Leiber and Brown in the same category as Pedro Martinez to you? If not then please don't compare them in any way shape or form, not even age. What you are doing essentially is comparing age to production. They aren't the same to me so I would not even answer your question. Give me fair comparisons and I will answer no problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxAce Posted February 16, 2004 Share Posted February 16, 2004 How about Thome? Danny Graves? Nolan Ryan? Ivan Rodriguez? Borowski? Aurilia? Damian Miller? Any other Sox fans here that don't know Tim Raines?? Hell, even our Frank Thomas is older but productive, and Valentin, the Alomar Brothers etc.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted February 16, 2004 Share Posted February 16, 2004 There is potential to be really good, but there is potential for it to be very bad as well. Really good = 120 wins Really bad = 100 wins and Wild Card. Semantics. Lieber will be fine. It's been two years. It's not his shoulder and he's never been aboout velocity. Check out TJ recovery rate. Watch him out-pitch last year's Weaver by a lrage margin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted February 16, 2004 Share Posted February 16, 2004 Just a question to you. Are Leiber and Brown in the same category as Pedro Martinez to you? If not then please don't compare them. They aren't the same to me so I would not even answer your question. Give me fair comparisons and I will answer no problem. I'M NOT COMPARING THEM. :fyou I'm asking you, in general, comparing Pedro to NO ONE, is Pedro Martinez old? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsideirish Posted February 16, 2004 Share Posted February 16, 2004 Hell, even our Frank Thomas is older bu productive, and Valentin, the Alomar Brothers etc.. Valentin and the Alomar brothers are productive? OKEY DOKEY! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted February 16, 2004 Share Posted February 16, 2004 Brown's injuries had nothing to do with his arm or his back. He'll be fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsideirish Posted February 16, 2004 Share Posted February 16, 2004 I'M NOT COMPARING THEM. :fyou I'm asking you, in general, comparing Pedro to NO ONE, is Pedro Martinez old? Why are you asking me? To prove what point? That the Yankees arent old? If you are asking for that reason then you are comparing. If not then what is the question for? This is just for good measures: :fyou Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steff Posted February 16, 2004 Share Posted February 16, 2004 Never seen him play. Do know he was one of the best baserunners in the history of the game. Very good OBP in his prime. An All-Star. Here's his #'s. G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB CS BA OBP SLG OPS 2502 8872 1565 2605 430 113 170 980 1330 966 808 146 .294 .385 .425 .810 He was awesome. BTW.. Henderson hit .315 when he was 40... Guys struggle to do that at 25. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steff Posted February 16, 2004 Share Posted February 16, 2004 Hell, even our Frank Thomas is older but productive, and Valentin, the Alomar Brothers etc.. I said Frank already.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsideirish Posted February 16, 2004 Share Posted February 16, 2004 Brown's injuries had nothing to do with his arm or his back. He'll be fine. My point is Brando that USUALLY the older you get the more injury prone you become. You can not realistically expect Brown to be healthy and pitch the entire season. It has been done. I understand this. There are exceptions to ever rule, however there is a norm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxAce Posted February 16, 2004 Share Posted February 16, 2004 Valentin and the Alomar brothers are productive? OKEY DOKEY! I do count Valentin's 25+ hrs 70+ rbi's very productive. The only thing not productive about him is his average. Same for Frank and the Alomar brothers. Roberto can still get on base and works the counts. Sandy is a very productive back-up catcher and gives you the clutch hits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted February 16, 2004 Share Posted February 16, 2004 You people also need to realize the PSYCHOLOGICAL aspect of the game. Brown was pitching for NO-HIT Dodgers. That's a lot of pressure that comes with nearly every pitch. A 3-run homer given up in the first often meant a sure loss. Vasquez played for Expos who had Guerrero on the DL for extended period of time. Not a lot of offensive support there, either. Now put them on a team with a 1100-run scoring potential and their effectiveness will surge. Now, giving up 3 runs in the first 2 innings, means that they Yankees win 9-4 instead of 9-1. Brown, Mussina, Vazquez and Contreras are liteally gonna have to try NOT to win 17-19 games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted February 16, 2004 Share Posted February 16, 2004 Why are you asking me? To prove what point? That the Yankees arent old? If you are asking for that reason then you are comparing. If not then what is the question for? This is just for good measures: :fyou You seem to think 32 is old. Pedro Martinez is 32 years old. Is Pedro old? From what I can tell, you do in fact think Pedro Martinez is old. My point is that your measuring stick for old is a bad measuring stick. In life beyond baseball(otherwise known as the real world), I would guess the average age is somewhere around 35-45....does this mean that if a person is 50 that they are old? No....the same thing applies to the Yankees. Who cares if their average age is just above the league average(which it probably is). They are by no means an old team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steff Posted February 16, 2004 Share Posted February 16, 2004 You people also need to realize the PSYCHOLOGICAL aspect of the game. Brown was pitching for NO-HIT Dodgers. That's a lot of pressure that comes with nearly every pitch. A 3-run homer given up in the first often meant a sure loss. Vasquez played for Expos who had Guerrero on the DL for extended period of time. Not a lot of offensive support there, either. Now put them on a team with a 1100-run scoring potential and their effectiveness will surge. Now, giving up 3 runs in the first 2 innings, means that they Yankees win 9-4 instead of 9-1. Brown, Mussina, Vazquez and Contreras are liteally gonna have to try NOT to win 17-19 games. Um.. no.. not "you people"... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsideirish Posted February 16, 2004 Share Posted February 16, 2004 I do count Valentin's 25+ hrs 70+ rbi's very productive. The only thing not productive about him is his average. Same for Frank and the Alomar brothers. Roberto can still get on base and works the counts. Sandy is a very productive back-up catcher and gives you the clutch hits. Alright, your entitled to your opinion. I guess it just depends what you want them to be productive at. If you just want them to be a backup or a decent on base guy then ok that is productive to you. I don't think that is what the Yanks are hoping for out of Williams, Lofton, and such. I think they are expecting more than that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxAce Posted February 16, 2004 Share Posted February 16, 2004 I said Frank already.. Whoops my mistake steff... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted February 16, 2004 Share Posted February 16, 2004 My point is Brando that USUALLY the older you get the more injury prone you become. You can not realistically expect Brown to be healthy and pitch the entire season I can and I do. Shilling is 37 himself, isn't he? And Pedro has been breaking down steadily, hasn't he? And Derek Lowe's 2002 was a fluke, wasn't it? And Keith Foulke is gonna fold in ALE, won't he? Garciappara has a bum wrist and his balls are in a Mia Hamm's vice, aren't they? Manny is pissed off at the world, isn't he? Varitek won't repeat and neither will Ortiz. It works both ways. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsideirish Posted February 16, 2004 Share Posted February 16, 2004 You seem to think 32 is old. Pedro Martinez is 32 years old. Is Pedro old? From what I can tell, you do in fact think Pedro Martinez is old. My point is that your measuring stick for old is a bad measuring stick. In life beyond baseball(otherwise known as the real world), I would guess the average age is somewhere around 35-45....does this mean that if a person is 50 that they are old? No....the same thing applies to the Yankees. Who cares if their average age is just above the league average(which it probably is). They are by no means an old team. You are comparing the age of one of the best pitchers of our time to the AVERAGE AGE of the entire Yankees team. As I said apples to oranges. Compare the average age of the entire league to the average age of the Yanks. If the Yanks are in fact younger or at that league average I will take back everything I said about them being old and will agree that you are correct. I belive they are old. And yes if a person is 50 they are old damnit! They may be the exception to the rule. They may keep themselves in shape mentally and physically and do more things than the normal 50 year old can do, however 50 is old. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted February 16, 2004 Share Posted February 16, 2004 Um.. no.. not "you people"... Ok if you prefer....."you little b****es". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsideirish Posted February 16, 2004 Share Posted February 16, 2004 I can and I do. Shilling is 37 himself, isn't he? And Pedro has been breaking down steadily, hasn't he? And Derek Lowe's 2002 was a fluke, wasn't it? And Keith Foulke is gonna fold in ALE, won't he? Garciappara has a bum wrist and his balls are in a Mia Hamm's vice, aren't they? Manny is pissed off at the world, isn't he? Varitek won't repeat and neither will Ortiz. It works both ways. OK my friend ok. I see your argument. You are in fact right it does work both ways. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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