Tweek The Line up

[BrandoFan]

a good hitter

 

Since when is 740 OPS "good" for a corner infielder.

 

You're right to put his hitting on par with his fielding; both are overrated.

 

And don't tell me about his "future". He is 26. Historically, it's PRIME. When he becomes that All-Star stud who guns people down from his knees, then talk. I hope he does.

 

Until then he's just another underachieving Sox.

[aboz56]

Since when is 740 OPS "good" for a corner infielder.

 

You're right to put his hitting on par with his fielding;  both are overrated. 

 

And don't tell me about his "future". He is 26. Historically, it's PRIME. When he becomes that All-Star stud who guns people down from his knees, then talk.

 

Until then he's just another underachieving Sox.

if that's the case, you're an underachieving poster...

[WSox30]

aboz, you make me laugh.

 

brando, what does a third baseman need to do for your approval?! chavez is one of the best in the game and you bash him. Crede's experienced is young and he has WON games for the sox this year and im done talking about his fielding beacuse i have seen him dive and throw consistently.

[BrandoFan]

if that's the case, you're an underachieving poster...

 

There's that Yankee wit.

 

 

[YASNY]

Crede came up up from the farm with reputation of being a gold glover caliber 3B. So far he has not consistently shown that ability. He has shown flashes from time to time, but he'll never be confused with Brooks Robinson. Yet, he is "overrated". On this board, there is a tendency to form an opinion, the stick with it through think and thin. That's why Valentin still has a rep as a poor shortstop, after having 36 errors in 2000. Yet he was superior defensively in 2003.

 

Crede's no slouch at third. In fact, I'd call him somewhat above average. But I'd also still call him overrated.

[Spiff]

Crede 2 errors in 59 chances in 27 games = overrated.

Valentin 5 errors in 63 chances in 12 games = underrated.

 

Consider my mind blown.

[southsider2k5]

You want to tweek the line up? This is my one game suggestion to make some points.

 

Take Carlos and make him the #2 hitter. Put Willie who is hitting .300, in CF, bench Rowand. Let Gload play first and hit him 5th. Slide Crede up to 6th, and hit Uribe 7th. Let Valentin hit 8th and Olivo 9th.

[israel4ever]

Valentin strikes out like a Cub...ya gotta sit him for awhile.

 

A-Row needs to start hitting soon or ...He gone!

 

We got zero production out of 3-4-5-6 in the line up vs Toronto, that is not going to happen too often. Frank hit the ball hard as did Lee...Maggs had a rough series and Paulie sucked.

 

Don't panic yet...we are still in 1st, and Frank, Mags, Lee and Crede are hitting 40+ points lower than they are capable of doing. Also, Buehrle and Loiaza haven't hit their strides yet either.

[BrandoFan]

Crede 2 errors in 59 chances in 27 games = overrated.

Valentin 5 errors in 63 chances in 12 games = underrated.

 

Consider my mind blown.

Yes, because errors are a great way to judge a fielder's worth.

 

Are you familiar with, say, Ultine ZoneRating or Pinto's Probabilistic Model of Range? How about something as rudimentary as Defensive Win Shares? Nothing substitites game-watching of course (which is why one is underrated and the other -- overrated, watch the game sometimes) but it helps to understand some of those statistical methods if you want to assess a fielder's worth?

 

Or you can stay in the dark age of fielding %. Choice is yours.

[israel4ever]

Yes, because errors are a great way to judge a fielder's worth.

 

Are familiar with Ultime ZoneRating or Pinto's Probabilistic Model of Range? How about something as rudimentary as Defensive Win Shares?  Nothing substitites game-watching of course (which is why one is underrated and the other -- overrated, watch the game sometimes) but it helps to understand some of those statistical methods if you want to assess a fielder's worth?

 

Or you can stay in the dark age of fielding %.    Choice is yours.

An excellamt point...fielding % is WAYYY overrated.

 

For example, look at Ryne Sandberg. He caught everything hit to him, but had ZERO range. If the ball was to his left or right, it was by him. He never dove for balls either.

 

Ryne Sandberg was one of the most overrated defnsive players I have ever seen.

[WSox30]

As you say, nothing substitutes watching the game and I see him making dives and having range and that will not be taken away from my eyes because i see what i see. As far as carlos to the 2 spot, didn't he hit really well there last year? if he did, then why not do it again.

 

And also, they mostly dont give errors to fielders if they are running sideways towards the ball and attempt to back hand it or something and bobble it. Errors are usually ligit and aren't given because they amazingly got there but couldn't make the play. Jose earned his errors.

[Spiff]

Yes, because errors are a great way to judge a fielder's worth.

 

Are you familiar with, say, Ultine ZoneRating or Pinto's Probabilistic Model of Range? How about something as rudimentary as Defensive Win Shares?  Nothing substitites game-watching of course (which is why one is underrated and the other -- overrated, watch the game sometimes) but it helps to understand some of those statistical methods if you want to assess a fielder's worth?

 

Or you can stay in the dark age of fielding %.    Choice is yours.

Yes and I'm also familiar with the fact that Crede is fourth in baseball for zone rating among 3B's, 1st in the AL ahead of the magnificent Chavez and Koskie.

 

Also, I wouldn't recommend being so condescending to me, I've been one of your biggest allies.

[BrandoFan]

Yes and I'm also familiar with the fact that Crede is fourth in baseball for zone rating among 3B's, 1st in the AL ahead of the magnificent Chavez and Koskie.

 

Also, I wouldn't recommend being so condescending to me, I've been one of your biggest allies.

You're talking about a generic ZR; UltineZR (UZR) is something else. Secondly, even if you still want to use the regular one, Crede is at 818 while Valentin is at 915 despite his usual slow, error-filled April start.

 

You still need to use other defensive evaluation approaches to get a fuller picture (sometimes they may even contradict one another as measuring defense, especially from a small sample size of 30 games is far from a straighforward process), but the basic point remains: if you only use Fielding %, a player's Total defensive contribution gets skewed.

 

Hell, look at the basic RangeFactor: Joe is at the bottom of the league -- and it's not as if Sox don't give up groundballs because Uribe, Valentin and Harris all rank up there in range factor (5.19, 5.29, 5.44 respectively), so the ball must be magically avoiding Joe's glove (2.06).

 

And I don't need allies, nor was I being condescending. I have explained this stuff many, many times, provided links and stats and whatnot.....after a while, it's clear people prefer ignorance -- hence the countless "Crede is a great fielder" and a "stud hitter" proclamations every time he hits a GW sac fly or makes a diving stop on a groundball.

 

Joe had 3 plays in Baltimore and Toronto alone that weren't scored as errors but should havebeen. Runs scored. People conveniently forget those plays, only remembering the occasional high-light.

 

His reads, jumps and closing speed (esp. on bunts and short choppers where a play at 1B will be bang-bang, so the littlest hesitation costs you) are just average. Joe has a strong arm but doesn't throw particularly well off balance, he doesn't throw from his knees at all; he is not quick to set his feet and his release is notoriously slow. A few times he got eaten up by a hop and took forever to make a decision -- I think it was Toronto loss at home -- the bases were loaded the ball was hit right at him and instead of quickly stepping on the bag and gunning to 1B, he took 3 or 4 steps and only then made a safe throw. No DP, run scored.

 

I got a ton of similar examples, but if people want to believe the Golden Boy hype, it's their prerogative.

 

Joe could become a Gold Glover, he has the tools for it no question about it.......but my post doesn't deal with 'coulds' or 'shoulds' but rather with 2003 and 2004.

[YASNY]

Thanks for getting my back on this one, Brando. I'm way too lazy to look all that stuff up and not inclined to argue with some of these guys. I know what I know and am not going to change their mind, nor will they change mine.

[Pastime]

CLee should be in the #2 slot in the lineup. He's floundering miserably in the spot he's in, and he spent a lot of time in the #2 hole last year and had his best season.