Profits or World Series?

[CWSGuy406]

I would like to know who voted that the owner's bottom line is the most important goal, and why!!!

I dont know about you, but I find it pretty damn funny...

[israel4ever]

I dont know about you, but I find it pretty damn funny... 

I though t Jerry Reinsdorf voted in the poll!

[Texsox]

Can't you settle for ALCS and wait a year for the Series? 

Actually, no I can't wait a year, that's a different discussion and not for today.

 

BTW, I just realized that actually attending games is irrelevent to this discsssion. I have purchased close to 50 tickets so far this season. I have sent my nephew's youth baseball team to the Cell, sent a stack to my cousin because I will be missing his wedding and bachelor party, and will be sending some to a few HS friends since I will be missing our HS reunion. When asked for donations for charity raffles, gold outings, etc. my parents usually give blocks of tickets. We use to buy season tickets for this but once a drunk who was sitting in our seats caused problems and the White Sox threatened us and treated us in a very unkind manner, so we stopped using season tickets for our business.

 

I will try and be clear and brief, the powers to be who are currently controlling my blood pressure are concerned that Soxtalk is not good for me. They have already informed me that anytime Billy Koch enters a game, I have to turn off the tv or computer,

 

Last year we lost the division by 5 games with a series of failures from our 5th starter. If we had another Colon type pitcher last season, we would have been in the playoffs. This season, once again we are floundering in the #5 spot. Yet, if JR asked what he should do some of y'all will tell JR:

 

We don't mind finishing in second place if it means you will make money. We understand that is our fault, we do not attend anough games. So if winning the division means the shareholders losing a few million dollars, we don't want it. We only want to win if we have guys who are worth the money. Give us a team of $250,000 players who exceed what a player of that salary should do, and we are happy. Please, please JR don't lose any money for a season.

 

Please, someone with the time and energy look for any of the rankings on what certain franchises are worth. It's the list with Yankees on top. Check for twenty years ago and check for 2003. IIRC the franchise is worth $450,000,000 more than when they bought it. Now tell me that losing $15,000,000 million and giving the fans that made you that profit a World Series isn't worth it?

 

But some will insist finishing second and making money is better than winning and losing money. That is your choice. Some will point to the Marlins and pray for a Dontrell Willis to appear. Don't hold your breath.

 

And to reply to a post from a while ago and will only make sense to one or two people, cram your f***ing degrees up your ass, America needs soldiers like Nuke a lot more than assholes with two degrees in being a baseball fan.

[IlliniBob72]

Jesus, Tex! Are you hormonal lately? Next I suppose you're going to tell us that since we love ownership so much that we ought to marry it. No one here has said they care about the owner's profits. Anyone who has ever paid a bill in their lives grasps the concept of money management. Acknowledging such a thing doesn't make someone in love with the idea. Realizing that teams with limited income need to have limited spending habits only makes sense, but you seem to get angry at the idea. Maybe you are footloose and fancy free when it comes to your money, but as someone who can't bring himself to spend $17 on a CD that I know I'll forget about in a month, I am not going to demand that people blow millions to bring me a championship that really impacts me not one iota.

 

If you think that the Steinbrenners of the league would tolerate losing money, you're kidding yourself. The teams that spend big make big. And if I'm wrong about that, I'd love to be set straight. But understand this...recognizing and accepting reality doesn't make me in love with it. I understand that my mortgage company won't let me skip a few payments, no matter how many millions of dollars it makes every day...that doesn't mean I like it.

[Texsox]

I've been accepting ownership's claims of not being able to spend money for 40 years. I've watched the Cubs slowly take over the city. If the Sox cannot build on their stars, they will get destroyed by the Cubs. Remember this is the same ownership that was willing to move the team to Florida if the taxpayers didn't build them a stadium. And y'all defend them. :headshake

 

If the Cubs continue on their path and the Sox continue to swap Maggs for some rookie, Colon for Wright, etc. they will be irrelevant in this city and soon will be gone.

 

But as long as the team does not lose money, some will be happy. Give those fans a $250,000 player who hits .275 and they'll be happy. But a $12,000,000 outfielder that hits .300?! He's not worth it and must be let go. :headshake they would rather finish second.

 

Anyone who pays a student loan knows the value of sometimes spending more than you take in. Anyone who borrows to buy equipment for their companie's expansion understands that.

 

If you had $25,000 in equity in your home and it needed a new roof, would you wait to fix the roof and ruin the sheet rock or take a loan from your equity and fix it while it needs fixing?

[greasywheels121]

World Series win.

[CWSGuy406]

I've been accepting ownership's claims of not being able to spend money for 40 years. I've watched the Cubs slowly take over the city. If the Sox cannot build on their stars, they will get destroyed by the Cubs. Remember this is the same ownership that was willing to move the team to Florida if the taxpayers didn't build them a stadium. And y'all defend them.  :headshake

 

If the Cubs continue on their path and the Sox continue to swap Maggs for some rookie, Colon for Wright, etc. they will be irrelevant in this city and soon will be gone.

 

But as long as the team does not lose money, some will be happy. Give those fans a $250,000 player who hits .275 and they'll be happy. But a $12,000,000 outfielder that hits .300?! He's not worth it and must be let go.  :headshake they would rather finish second.

 

Anyone who pays a student loan knows the value of sometimes spending more than you take in. Anyone who borrows to buy equipment for their companie's expansion understands that.

 

If you had $25,000 in equity in your home and it needed a new roof, would you wait to fix the roof and ruin the sheet rock or take a loan from your equity and fix it while it needs fixing?

OK - that was the two stupidest posts I've seen in a long time.

 

First - find one spot where me, or IlliniKrush, or ANYONE, said they'd be satisfied with finishing second.

 

Waiting...

 

Waiting...

 

Waiting...

 

 

Second - You STILL haven't answered the question of how the Oakland Athletics are successful. I mean, they don't resign their stars that ask for big money (Giambi, Tejada, Damon, Foulke) - to one exception of Eric Chavez, who was signed at a fair value - not to add how much more important a GG thirdbasemen who's lefty who hits for high average is than a corner outfielder.

 

You still aren't understanding, and this is becoming painfully annoying, but just because you let go of Maggs, doesn't mean that they will not spend that money. This FA class is an awesome one, especially with pitching. Pitching is what will get you a World Series Ring.

 

And you saying Maggs being a 12 million dollar man is stupid too, because HE WANTS 14 MILLION! HE'S STATED THAT HIMSELF SEVERAL TIMES! Believe me, if all he wanted was twelve million a year, I'd give it to him because that's what he deserves.

 

BUT HE WANTS UPWARDS OF 14 MILLION! MORE THAN VLAD IS MAKING. IS MAGGS BETTER THAN VLAD? Please... Facts - get them straight...

 

 

 

 

Hi, box, I'm Keith - hello? Hello?

[CubsSuck1]

I misunderstood the question and voted for playoff spot, because that is wat I think is most important to Kenny, not the fans, as far as fans, I would say world series..

[YASNY]

All that I have to add is this, as everything else has been thoroughl.. ummm .. discussed. It was stated that Sox will "never" catch the Cubs.

 

I wholeheartedly disagree with that statement. The whole "lovable loser" magic is crumbling right before your eyes. They are now expected to win, and when they don't, again, it's going to be the first step on the road to "looking back at the good old days" for that franchise. Sosa is at the age where could lose his bat speed at any time, and if he was "steriod supplemented", it may happen tomorrow. Venerable Wrigley Field is dump that is just waiting to be recognized as such. How much longer do you think that rickety old place can be used without some drastic, but not cost-effective reconstruction? The Cubs are a fad . Fads come and go. This is their moment to soar toward the sun, but like Icarus, they'll soon be plummeting back to earth. The Tribune company is going to run that franchise into a state of such disrepair that they'll be in the dumper for years.

 

You heard it here first.

[Texsox]

OK - that was the two stupidest posts I've seen in a long time.

 

First - find one spot where me, or IlliniKrush, or ANYONE, said they'd be satisfied with finishing second.

 

Waiting...

 

Waiting...

 

Waiting...

 

 

Second - You STILL haven't answered the question of how the Oakland Athletics are successful.  I mean, they don't resign their stars that ask for big money (Giambi, Tejada, Damon, Foulke) - to one exception of Eric Chavez, who was signed at a fair value - not to add how much more important a GG thirdbasemen who's lefty who hits for high average is than a corner outfielder.

 

You still aren't understanding, and this is becoming painfully annoying, but just because you let go of Maggs, doesn't mean that they will not spend that money.  This FA class is an awesome one, especially with pitching.  Pitching is what will get you a World Series Ring.

 

And you saying Maggs being a 12 million dollar man is stupid too, because HE WANTS 14 MILLION!  HE'S STATED THAT HIMSELF SEVERAL TIMES!  Believe me, if all he wanted was twelve million a year, I'd give it to him because that's what he deserves.

 

BUT HE WANTS UPWARDS OF 14 MILLION!  MORE THAN VLAD IS MAKING.  IS MAGGS BETTER THAN VLAD?  Please...  Facts - get them straight...

 

 

 

 

Hi, box, I'm Keith - hello?  Hello? 

 

Sorry to keep you waiting, I do hope you went to bed and got some sleep.

I don't believe I said you specifically would swap cash for second place, but I will give you opportunity to.

 

Last year we fell a little short and finished second, with no real help from the 5th starter.

 

This year, again, we have no 5th starter even on the roster. Assuming we finish second again, and by about the same margin, would it have been worth paying Colon $10,000,000 for a 7-20 record and a division title?

 

So we only want guys on the roster who are making less than someone with better stats? Please let KW know that when he is signing players. Please KW, don't sign someone for more than Vlad if they don't have Vlad numbers.

 

Are you saying you only want players who are "worth it"? Would you rather have Maggs, at Vlad money or a .275 hitter at the league minimum?

 

Should we only take on a player if his salary is below others? I didn't know they gave style points in MLB.

 

Perhaps the financial picture allows you to accept no World Series wins in 90 years. Perhaps it makes you feel better. To me it makes the failures all the more bitter.

 

And you mention the Oakland A's and being successful. This highlights why I think you are acepting mediocrity. They last WON A WORLD SERIES in 1989. Their last World Series appearance was in 1990. And this is who you point to as successful :headshake :puke

 

How the hell do you define success? I define it by winning a World Series. I thought that's the goal. Or is it a playoff appearance with a payroll appropriate for the attendance and with players who are making less than other players with similar stats. This is why I think you are a loser, you accept, make excuses, and defend losing.

 

I guess you are happy with less.

[Texsox]

All that I have to add is this, as everything else has been thoroughl.. ummm .. discussed.  It was stated that Sox will "never" catch the Cubs.

 

I wholeheartedly disagree with that statement.  The whole "lovable loser" magic is crumbling right before your eyes.  They are now expected to win, and when they don't, again, it's going to be the first step on the road to "looking back at the good old days" for that franchise. Sosa is at the age where could lose his bat speed at any time, and if he was "steriod supplemented", it may happen tomorrow.  Venerable  Wrigley Field is dump that is just waiting to be recognized as such.  How much longer do you think that rickety old place can be used without some drastic, but not cost-effective reconstruction?  The Cubs are a fad .  Fads come and go.  This is their moment to soar toward the sun, but like Icarus, they'll soon be plummeting back to earth.  The Tribune company is going to run that franchise into a state of such disrepair that they'll be in the dumper for years.

 

You heard it here first.

YASNY, I agree 100% with your post, but the Sox only capture those casual fans if they have a product those fans can identify with. If the Sox aren't winning their division and reaching a WS, the casual fan, who we are fighting for, isn't going to jump to the Sox either, they will just fade away.

 

We need to build around an All-Star who the city can identify with. Frank is nearing retirement age and has never been Sosa-esque with the media. Maggs is the heir apparent. How much more is he worth as the symbol of the White Sox?

[BrandoFan]

We need to build around an All-Star who the city can identify with. Frank is nearing retirement age and has never been Sosa-esque with the media. Maggs is the heir apparent. How much more is he worth as the symbol of the White Sox?

 

Fine. You win. Give Magglio 5/75 he is looking for.

 

Afterall, back in 1998, the team's payroll was around 45 Mill, with Belle and Thomas making 21 Mill between them. It worked out great.

[Texsox]

Fine.  You win.  Give Magglio 5/75 he is looking for.

 

Afterall, back in 1998, the team's payroll was around 45 Mill, with Belle and Thomas making 21 Mill between them. It worked out great.

Well Brando, we can go back to the "These kids can play" days and white flag it. That worked.

 

Sox ownership has convinced a generation of Sox fans that losing in the playoffs to better financed teams is success. How many people look at Oakland and think why can't we be like them? And they have not been to the World Series in 14 years. We are accepting mediocrity and that saddens me. Oakland is a nice franchise, but I judge teams by World Series. Would you seriously rather be Oakland with zero WS in ten years, but a bunch of playoff appearances, or the Marlins with a couple rings and far fewer playoff appearances?

[BrandoFan]

Well Brando, we can go back to the "These kids can play" days and white flag it. That worked.

Actually it did work - compared to 1998 anyway.

 

2000 team totally choked offensively in postseason - something you can't protect against even with a 100 Mill payroll as Braves proved last year - but coming into 2000 playoffs, objectively speaking, they had AS GOOD a chance to win the Series as any team. That year the team's payroll was < 35 Mill.

 

2001 team suffered a terrible injury epidemic early - again, you can't protect against it, and a 100 Mill payroll team could easily suffer the same fate. Otherwise, a healthy 2001 team would have beaten the Indians no prob. I don't know whether or not it would have won the Series, but with Buerhle-Wells-Wells and a potent offens and good pen, they'd had easily as good a chance as 2002 Agels or 2003 Marlins.

 

Now...once 2001 team failed, both in terms of results and revenue (remember Reinsdorf literally doubled the 2000 payroll because attendance shot up as compared to 1999, but it didn't take off in 2001), THAT's when JR's myopic, greed-driven approach caught up with him - resulting in 2002 and 2003 debacles where a few extra Mill wisely spent could have turned the tide in Sox favor......But I digress.

 

Reposting from another thread:

 

Sox fans as any fans want a winner and could care less about shareholders, that goes WITHOUT saying.    Where do you get that Sox fans prefer stockholder's profit over winning?   It makes no sense.

 

Unfortunately,  this ownership group cares about profit first and foremost.    They won't budge and they sure as hell won't sell.   They will continue to ruin this franchise to make a buck, it's just the way it is.

 

Stay away from the park, curtail your spending in an attempt to send a message to JR, etc and you achieve NOTHING, only robbing yourself of fun times at the ballpark in the process.    You lose.   Team loses.

 

Bottomline:  the payroll won't reach 80+ Mill without a significant increase in revenue.    You can b**** about it and pick apart every flaw in JR's business model (and there is a lot to criticise!)......or you can accept it as reality and move on.   

 

Should you choose to accept it, you'd have to realize why paying 14-15 Mill a year for many years for Magglio would be STUPID.    Bonds 5 years ago? Yes.  Magglio? No.     He is not that good, he is not that popular and the only time he made it into postseason, he more or less choked.    As long as that 14-15 Mill is RE-INVESTED to help fill other needs, it's not the end of the world.

 

Yes, losing him would be a big PR hit, but what's the alternative?   Crippling the team's chances for years to come by commiting a huge % of the payroll to a player that's frankly not worth it?   I said before the season that Maggs should be re-signed if he can carry this team deep into the playoffs and fans come in bunches.   So far he's had a very ordinary season, and now he might be damaged goods on top of it, what with his knee injury and all.    Hmm, let me ponder this one..........

[Texsox]

I am getting frustrated because I cannot find the words to accurately discribe by point.

 

Yes I understand that finances are a part of the game and filling a roster is as much about payroll as finances.

 

But why accept less than a WS, because of finances? Why judge a player against a balance sheet? Why idolize the As because they lose in the playoffs?

[CWSGuy406]

I am getting frustrated because I cannot find the words to accurately discribe by point.

 

Yes I understand that finances are a part of the game and filling a roster is as much about payroll as finances.

 

But why accept less than a WS, because of finances? Why judge a player against a balance sheet? Why idolize the As because they lose in the playoffs?

How does signing Maggs, and not being able to go out and get a FA starting pitcher, and two arms for the bullpen, get us closer to a World Series? Please, answer, and don't back away from the question either...

[BrandoFan]

Yes I understand that finances are a part of the game and filling a roster is as much about payroll as finances.

 

Absolutely. JR is a liar and is a lousy sports owner, but can we get past that and enjoy the Sox and hope they pull a 2002 Angels?

 

But why accept less than a WS, because of finances?

 

I've ranted and raved against JR and lower expectations in general plenty, and was told I am not a real Sox fan. But reality says that only 1 team out of 30 wins the Series. Learn to crawl before walking - make it to ALCS, get your fans excited, raise the payroll and build from there.

 

And how do you propose we as fans " not accept" lack of WSC? Boycott? No way.

 

Why judge a player against a balance sheet?

 

Because only the Yankees can write blank checks.

 

Why idolize the As because they lose in the playoffs?

 

They are "idolized" because their farm system and GM, two most essential components, have been examplary in the lasy few years. Their problem is that their FANS and their OWNER, the other half of the equation, pretty much suck.

 

Last year A's got screwed by the umps and bad luck - otherwise it could be them and not Marlins hoisting the trophy.

[Texsox]

How does signing Maggs, and not being able to go out and get a FA starting pitcher, and two arms for the bullpen, get us closer to a World Series?  Please, answer, and don't back away from the question either...

And what is wrong with Maggs, a FA pitcher at $1,000,000 less per year, and two arms for the bull pen at $500,000 less per year than what we could sign? I'm using Maggs at $12 mil vs. $14 as the example.

 

If JR said the payroll had to be $45,000,000 would you believe him? Unless I missed something, there is no cap besides what the owner self imposes. You choose to believe JR and $60,000,000 and blame Sox fans for not attending enough games.

 

And I believe you also asked what my line up would be with Maggs, how about yours, only with Maggs and an extra $2,000,000 payroll from a franchise that estimates claim is worth hundreds of millions more than when they bought it?

 

If Vlad stats fell, then would Maggs be worth $14,000,000?

 

How does losing Maggs and not being able to sign a FA pitcher, two bull pen arms, and a closer help us win a World Series? And please do not back away from the question.

[CWSGuy406]

And what is wrong with Maggs, a FA pitcher at $1,000,000 less per year, and two arms for the bull pen at $500,000 less per year than what we could sign? I'm using Maggs at $12 mil vs. $14 as the example.

 

If JR said the payroll had to be $45,000,000 would you believe him? Unless I missed something, there is no cap besides what the owner self imposes. You choose to believe JR and $60,000,000 and blame Sox fans for not attending enough games.

 

And I believe you also asked what my line up would be with Maggs, how about yours, only with Maggs and an extra $2,000,000 payroll from a franchise that estimates claim is worth hundreds of millions more than when they bought it?

 

If Vlad stats fell, then would Maggs be worth $14,000,000?

 

How does losing Maggs and not being able to sign a FA pitcher, two bull pen arms, and a closer help us win a World Series? And please do not back away from the question.

How would we not be able to sign 3 FA pitchers if we lost Maggs? You're not making sense anymore.

 

What would my team look like?

 

C Olivo

1B Konerko

2B Harris

SS Uribe

3B Crede

RF Reed

CF Borchard

LF Lee

 

Starting Staff of Buerhle-Garcia-Loaiza-Garland-FA Pitcher 2, but depends on how Diaz performs.

 

JR has never said the payroll would go down to 45 million - stop pulling random things out of your ass. You're so friggin clueless at this point. You're rants are stupid - if you don't like the way this team operates, go cheer for a team that likes dishing out money, like the Yankees, Rangers, or the Red Sox.

[CWSGuy406]

How does losing Maggs and not being able to sign a FA pitcher, two bull pen arms, and a closer help us win a World Series? And please do not back away from the question.

What sense does that make? You think that just because JR didn't resign Colon, he pocketed money, when in fact, you have shown absolutely no facts, NONE, to show he pocketed it.

 

:headshake

 

Krush - why do I even try? Running in circles, running in circles...

[Texsox]

What sense does that make?  You think that just because JR didn't resign Colon, he pocketed money, when in fact, you have shown absolutely no facts, NONE, to show he pocketed it.

 

:headshake

 

Krush - why do I even try?  Running in circles, running in circles...

That's right he signed Uribe to that big contract.

[Texsox]

How would we not be able to sign 3 FA pitchers if we lost Maggs?  You're not making sense anymore.

 

What would my team look like?

 

C Olivo

1B Konerko

2B Harris

SS Uribe

3B Crede

RF Reed

CF Borchard

LF Lee

 

Starting Staff of Buerhle-Garcia-Loaiza-Garland-FA Pitcher 2, but depends on how Diaz performs.

 

JR has never said the payroll would go down to 45 million - stop pulling random things out of your ass.  You're so friggin clueless at this point.  You're rants are stupid - if you don't like the way this team operates, go cheer for a team that likes dishing out money, like the Yankees, Rangers, or the Red Sox.

C Olivo

1B Konerko

2B Harris

SS Uribe

3B Crede

RF Maggs

CF Borchard

LF Lee

 

Starting Staff of Buerhle-Garcia-Loaiza-Garland-FA Pitcher 2, but depends on how Diaz performs.

 

Your point? I ike this line up better. Tell me why you think Reed will do better than Maggs?

[Texsox]

How would we not be able to sign 3 FA pitchers if we lost Maggs?  You're not making sense anymore.

We lost Colon, why didn't we sign a FA pitcher to replace him? Just because the team dumps Maggs doesn't mean we can attract the FA pitcher we want or that JR would spend the money on him. Remember we are being outbid on Maggs, why would you think we wouldn't be outbid on someone else?