Orlando Cabrera

[southsideirish]

Does anyone think we will have a chance to land Cabrera? He seems like an Ozzie type of player. He seems like a good #2 hitter to me and he should become available soon and if not he will be a free agent. Any thoughts?

 

Orlando Cabrera article

[SoxFan1]

Is there really a need for another SS???????

[witesoxfan]

No.

 

Jose's a good SS, and Uribe-Harris at 2B will be all we need.

 

I don't even think we should sign him in the offseason. Just resign Jose and we'll be fine.

[baggio202]

since the expos are owned by MLB and selig and reinsdorf are like best friends there is always a chance we could have an inside track to any deal involving the expos...i remember when their GM, minaya , came out and said that the white sox would be given a chance to top any offer that was made to the expos...thats kinda how we ended up with colon..

 

so any trade talk involving the expos is a possibility

[southsideirish]

He is younger and better defensively.

[Elcaballo45]

Agreed, if we were going to get a middle infielder, before the season started, I was thinking Vidro sometime in the near future. But since Uribe has proven himself quite well, I think we're pretty much set.

[Xero]

I'd trade Jose for Cabrera straight up but I doubt Montreal would do it...

[BrandoFan]

Does anyone think we will have a chance to land Cabrera? He seems like an Ozzie type of player. He seems like a good #2 hitter to me and he should become available soon and if not he will be a free agent. Any thoughts?

 

Orlando Cabrera article

No.

 

 

He makes 6 Million and Montreal will fleece KW on prospects.

 

His OPS is 628.

 

We already have 2 SS - could rotate them I guess

[RibbieRubarb]

LEFT HANDED POWER HITTER

 

Jose is our only one...we will NOT win with a line-up of all Right handed hitters!

[southsideirish]

No.

 

 

He makes 6 Million and Montreal will fleece KW on prospects. 

 

His OPS is 628.

 

We already have 2 SS - could rotate them I guess 

Say we don't give up anything for him and we just sign him as a free agent during the offseason. Would you do it then?

 

I don't think anyone's OPS would be too great in the lineup he is in. Well I won't say anyone's, but very few players would be able to produce with the surrounding cast he has. His career OPS is .723 and Jose's is .781, not that big of difference.

[witesoxfan]

Say we don't give up anything for him and we just sign him as a free agent during the offseason. Would you do it then?

 

I don't think anyone's OPS would be too great in the lineup he is in. Well I won't say anyone's, but very few players would be able to produce with the surrounding cast he has. His career OPS is .723 and Jose's is .781, not that big of difference.

In the lineup he was in, if he were decent, he would have an OPS of atleast .750.

 

.628 is f***ing awful, plain and simple.

[southsideirish]

In the lineup he was in, if he were decent, he would have an OPS of atleast .750.

 

.628 is f***ing awful, plain and simple.

In the lineup he was in or is in? THe season isn't over yet, so he could rebound in his current situation. In the lineup he was in last year his OPS was .807 last year. Not really sure what you meant by that.

[IlliniKrush]

Taking Jose off the field is exactly what the sox don't need at this point.

[BrandoFan]

He is younger and better defensively.

He's younger? So? All it means is that he's gonna command 7-8+ Mill a year after the season. He is pushing 30 so it's not as if he's gonna improve all of the sudden to justify that kind of money.

 

Better defensively? Yes, marginally - and certainly not in the last month+ since Jose sort of cut down on the usual routine error crap.

 

Jose's ZoneRating from 2004 (and 2003) blows Cabrera away - and that considering Cabrera has 5 fewer errors on this season which should account for at least 30-40 ZR % points. Same goes for pitching-Adjusted RangeFactor (ARF).

 

Did I mention the almost 300 OPS difference between the two in 2004?

 

Or Jose's 2004 'Close and Late' OPS that is literally 1000 OPS higher (1600 vs 600)

 

Lastly.......How many "cheap" doubles do you think Cabrera hits on turf that are just long singles on grass and how many "cheap" singles shoot through the fast infield that are outs on grass?

[southsideirish]

He's younger?  So?  All it means is that he's gonna command 7-8+ Mill a year after the season.   He is pushing 30 so it's not as if he's gonna improve all of the sudden to justify that kind of money.

 

6 years younger than Jose

 

Better defensively?   Yes, marginally - and certainly not in the last month+ since Jose sort of cut down on the usual routine error crap. 

 

This is supposed to make me feel better that Jose usually goes through routine error crap and Cabrera doesn't?

 

Did I mention the almost 300 OPS difference between the two in 2004?

 

I didn't know 2004 was over yet. 2003 is and Cabrera outperformed Jose in that category in 2003.

 

Or Jose's 2004 'Close and Late' OPS that is literally 1000 OPS higher (1600 vs 600)

 

This is usually more significant on a good team with better players surrounding you. I serioulsy doubt that Montreal is in as many close games as us or in games late in games. They are competing for last place oin all of baseball while the Sox are competing for first in the central. There is a bigger difference in the way you approach things in those different scenarios. Cabrera is not on a good team nor does he have a good supporting cast. I wonder how each would fair if they changed teams.

 

Lastly.......How many "cheap" doubles do you think Cabrera hits on turf that are just long singles on grass and how many "cheap" singles shoot through the fast infield that are outs on grass?

 

How many more home runs could he hit at the Cell with that lineup surrounding him. If this if that. Blah Blah Blah.

 

 

I do agree that we need Jose's leadership, left handed bat, and baserunning skills. There is a lot to like about Jose and there are things to dislike, including his fielding and strikeouts.

[BrandoFan]

Say we don't give up anything for him and we just sign him as a free agent during the offseason. Would you do it then?

Of course not.

 

We have Jose. Then we have the resurgent Uribe when if Jose leaves. Uribe's hitting and defense has improved by leaps and bounds this season, so he's a better player than Carbera - and still much younger and cheaper.

 

As this season is proving beyod any doubt, Cabrera isn't worth anything CLOSE to the money he likely command (30 Mill over 4 years or in that range).

 

And Cabrera is on pace to 20 GIDP so his already pitiful 620 OPS this season is in actuality even worse. Hoping that he somehow rebounds and has a 2nd half of a lifetime as a member of the Sox is something that is just to risky to even think about.

[southsideirish]

Of course not.

 

We have Jose. Then we have the resurgent Uribe when if Jose leaves. Uribe's hitting and defense has improved by leaps and bounds this season, so he's a better player than Carbera - and still much younger and cheaper.

 

As this season is proving beyod any doubt, Cabrera isn't worth anything CLOSE to the money he likely command (30 Mill over 4 years or in that range).

 

And Cabrera is on pace to 20 GIDP so his already pitiful 620 OPS this season is in actuality even worse.    Hoping that he somehow rebounds and has a 2nd half of a lifetime as a member of the Sox is something that is just to risky to even think about.

Ok just asking, because one of the negatives of yours was that Kenny would get fleeced. Just wanted to make sure that that was not the major thing holding you back here.

[baggio202]

if we did get cabrera we could resign jose to play 3rd base...most power hitting SS when the get in their mid 30's usually move to 3rd base anyways to extend their careers...that would mean giving up on crede...so if KW did make this move that would , imo , signify the end of the crede era...

 

uribe , cabrera , valentin from 2nd to 3rd...not a bad infield...but i dont think it will happen..it doesnt really address the concerns of this team this year..in the off season cabrera could be a FA option..especially if we could get something good for crede in a trade..but not now

 

but anything can happens with the expos..

[Wong & Owens]

Cabrera's BA and OBP are quite a bit worse on grass than on turf.

 

$7 million a year for a .265 hitter with very little power? Why?

 

I may be the most anti-Crede guy around, but even I'm taking note of his resurgence, and would wait and see what happens with him over the whole season.

 

Can't pencil Uribe in at SS for the next 10 years yet, either. He's in a funk right now, and with no real track record to go off of, I'd like to see what he does the rest of the year as well.

[BrandoFan]

6 years younger than Jose

 

Cabrera is 29, Jose is 34. We're not talking about a kid like Izturis who has his future ahead of him. Cabrera is as good as he is going to get.

 

Jose won't be here 3 years from now, but that doesn't mean Sox should throw money on one of the most overrated players in baseball......Especially given that 24yo Juan Uribe has pretty much improved in every aspect of the game.

 

 

This is supposed to make me feel better that Jose usually goes through routine error crap and Cabrera doesn't?

 

No, it should make you feel better that with Jose's still-outstanding range and arm and positining skills and awareness (textbook run downs, faking out Patterson, picking Dye off 3rd base after faking the swipe on Crosby at 2nd on bad throw by Rowand - that kind of heads up stuff), COUPLED with somewhat less careless play in 2003 and 2004 when he did cut down on avoidable errors........he has been been every bit as "valuable" defensively as Cabrera has been. Certainly within shooting distance. The last unearned run that scored courtesy of Jose was back in April in Tampa Bay. How much better is Cabrera gonna be in that department? Zero unearned runs? I seem to remember him whiffing on Vidro's throw and White Sox scoring a few unearned runs just the other week......Hmm.

 

I still will take Cabrera's glove over Jose's (he is getting older) in the long run, but if you think Cabrera is signifcantly better defensively, then.....Well last couple of years, the numbers simply contradict it. Such as....

 

These

 

I didn't know 2004 was over yet. 2003 is and Cabrera outperformed Jose in that category in 2003.

 

Jose was batting .120 in 110 atbats as a RH in 2003. He no longer bats RH, so the overall OPS won't be diluted as much. And you're kidding yourself if you think Cabrera will come anywhere CLOSE to Jose in OPS this year. Not the way he is swinging his bat right now - you can't blame his teammates for Cabrera being tardy on a fastball and out in front of a breaking ball.

 

This is usually more significant on a good team with better players surrounding you. Cabrera is not on a good team nor does he have a good supporting cast. I wonder how each would fair if they changed teams.

 

Huh? How are you gonna lay the fact that Jose is in a different universe than Cabrera when the game is on the line? 'Close and Late' is defined as "production in the 7th inning or later with a batting team either up by a run, tied or the tying run at least on deck". Jose was pretty good in that regard in 2003 (despite having to bat RH against lefty specialists half the time when the game is on the line), but his 2004 production in critical situations just TOOK OFF - perhaps because he no longer has to worry about the switch-hitting s***.

 

Why in the world would you mess with that? Just to have Cabrera's adorable braids in the line-up? Makes no sense.

 

How many more home runs could he hit at the Cell with that lineup surrounding him.

 

Not many. He is not a HR hitter. How many singles and doubles is he gonna lose while playing on USCF grass as opposed to a hard turf where every other blooper has a chance to go to the wall? And most if not all of Jose's HR are KILLED and have very little to do with USCF. In fact, he has almost as many HR on the road as at home this year.

 

. There is a lot to like about Jose and there are things to dislike, including his fielding and strikeouts.

 

Bad fielding in 2003 and 2004? You mean like this

 

And who cares about strike-outs! I suppose you'd rather he made contact at any cost and hit into 23 GIDP like Cabrera is on pace to do this year, or had Cabrera's 600 'Close and Late' OPS? Forest for the trees much?

 

On a team that has 2 good SS and still badly needs a pitcher (hopefully RJ) as well as a BP arm....you'd rather Sox pursue an overrated and overpaid bum from Montreal? Maybe we should get Christian Guzman, too while we're at it.

[southsideirish]

Cabrera is 29,  Jose is 34.  We're not talking about a kid like Izturis who has his future ahead of him.  Cabrera is as good as he is going to get.

 

Jose won't be here 3 years from now, but that doesn't mean Sox should throw money on one of the most overrated players in baseball......Especially given that 24yo Juan Uribe has pretty much improved in every aspect of the game.

 

 

 

 

No, it should make feel better than with Jose's still-outstanding range and arm and positining skills and awareness (textbook run downs, faking out Patterson, picking Dye off 3rd base after faking the swipe on Crosby at 2nd on bad throw by Rowand - that kind of heads up stuff),  COUPLED with somewhat less careless play in 2003 and 2004 when he did cut down on avoidable errors........he has been been every bit as "valuable" defensively as Cabrera has been. Certainly within shooting distance. The last unearned run that scored courtesy of Jose was back in April in Tampa Bay.    How much better is Cabrera gonna be in that department?  Zero unearned runs? I seem to remember him whiffing on Vidro's throw and White Sox scoring a few unearned runs just the other week......Hmm.

 

I still will take Cabrera's glove over Jose's (he is getting older) in the long run, but if you think Cabrera is signifcantly better defensively, then.....Well last couple of years, the numbers simply contradict it. Such as....

 

These

 

 

 

Jose was batting .120 in 110 atbats as a RH in 2003.  He no longer bats RH, so the overall OPS won't be diluted as much.    And you're kidding yourself if you think Cabrera will come anywhere CLOSE to Jose in OPS this year. Not the way he is swinging his bat right now - you can't blame his teammates for Cabrera being tardy on a fastball and out in front of a breaking ball. 

 

 

 

Huh? How are you gonna lay the fact that Jose is in a different universe than Cabrera when the game is on the line? 'Close and Late' is defined as "production in the 7th inning or later with a batting team either up by a run, tied or the tying run at least on deck".      Jose was pretty good in that regard in 2003 (despite having to bat RH against lefty specialists half the time when the game is on the line), but his 2004 production in critical situations just TOOK OFF - perhaps because he no longer has to worry about the switch-hitting s***.   

 

Why in the world would you mess with that? Just to have Cabrera's adorable braids in the line-up? Makes no sense.

 

 

 

Not many.  He is not a HR hitter. How many singles and doubles is he gonna lose while playing on USCF grass as opposed to a hard turf where every other blooper has a chance to go to the wall?    And most if not all of Jose's HR are KILLED and have very little to do with USCF. In fact, he has almost as many HR on the road as at home this year.

 

 

 

Bad fielding in 2003 and 2004?  You mean like this

 

And who cares about strike-outs!  I supposed you'd rather he made contact at any cost and hit into 23 GIDP like Cabrera is on pace to do this year, or had Cabrera's 600 'Close and Late' OPS?    Forest for the trees much?

 

On a team that has 2 good SS and still badly needs a pitcher (hopefully RJ) as well as a BP arm....you'd rather Sox pursue an overrated and overpaid bum from Montreal? Maybe we should get Christian Guzman, too while we're at it.

You have a lot of good points. Thank you for sharing and discussing.

[AngelasDaddy0427]

No need for this deal it all.

We already have perhaps the most clutch shortstop in baseball right now.

I sure as heck don't want to give that up...

[BrandoFan]

You have a lot of good points. Thank you for sharing and discussing.

Granted, you have a point - Cabrera is a talent, no doubt. There is always a chance he blossoms after turning 30 like Valentin and Mora did.

 

My problem is that on a money-challenged team with not 1 but 2 decent SS, can they take a multi-year gamble on a soon-to-be very expensive underachiever like Cabrera?

 

IMO they can't. Sox simply have too many needs.

[SoxFan1]

Did anyone see that opposit field shot by Jose tonight? Yeah, we really need Cabrera. ::rolls eyes::

[YASNY]

Cabrera is not and should not even be on the Sox radar. I think we'll get another good year or two out of Jose. We have Uribe, and if he can't cut we just got that SS for Koch. Then we had a couple of good SS out of last years draft.