Abuse of Patriot Act?

[Texsox]

My Way Link

 

NEWARK, N.J. (AP) - Federal authorities Tuesday used the Patriot Act to charge a man with pointing a laser beam at an airplane overhead and temporarily blinding the pilot and co-pilot.

 

The FBI acknowledged the incident had no connection to terrorism but called David Banach's actions "foolhardy and negligent."

 

Banach, 38, of Parsippany admitted to federal agents that he pointed the light beam at a jet and a helicopter over his home near Teterboro Airport last week, authorities said. Initially, he claimed his daughter aimed the device at the helicopter, they said.

 

He is the first person arrested after a recent rash of reports around the nation of laser beams hitting airplanes.

 

Banach was charged only in connection with the jet. He was accused of interfering with the operator of a mass transportation vehicle and making false statements to the FBI, and was released on $100,000 bail. He could get up to 25 years in prison and fines of up to $500,000.

More at Link

[YASNY]

You had to know it wouldn't be long before the Patriot Act was used on a US citizen for something other than terrorism.

 

So it begins ....

[mreye]

While I don't like the Patriot Act, I'm not sure of your poll question? Are you asking, "Should he be prosecuted?" I say, YES! I don't think it's abuse. Contrary to what they tell us, I don't believe pointing a laser at a pilot would cause him to steer out of control, but I think this guy thought that it might and wanted to find out for himself. I think the worst part of this he won't even get charged for and that's blaming his daughter. :headshake

[YASNY]

While I don't like the Patriot Act, I'm not sure of your poll question? Are you asking, "Should he be prosecuted?" I say, YES! I don't think it's abuse. Contrary to what they tell us, I don't believe pointing a laser at a pilot would cause him to steer out of control, but I think this guy thought that it might and wanted to find out for himself. I think the worst part of this he won't even get charged for and that's blaming his daughter.  :headshake

 

I'm no expert, but I'd say a laser hitting the retina could certainly cause some problems.

[mreye]

I'm no expert, but I'd say a laser hitting the retina could certainly cause some problems.

 

 

Similar incidents have been reported in Colorado Springs, Colo., Cleveland, Washington, Houston and Medford, Ore., raising fears that the light beams could temporarily blind cockpit crews and lead to accidents.

 

Temporarily. I just don't see the pilot getting hit with the laser and instead of moving his head out of the way, grabs the steering wheel and jerks it in the opposite direction causing the plane to go out of control. Come on.

[Rex Kickass]

There's a column in Salon.com by the Ask the Pilot guy that talks about how difficult it is to blind someone by a laser beam in a cockpit. The "temporary blinding" that they are talking about is more like the cockpit being briefly bathed in light rather than actual blinding. Although its not a great thing to do, this is hardly a sinister act.

 

The guy shouldn't get off. But he shouldn't be spending 25 years in the pen because he was looking at the stars with his daughter and a glorified laser pointer.

[LowerCaseRepublican]

There have been plenty of abuses of the PATRIOT Act from the investigation of strip clubs that had nothing to do with terrorism (http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/2003/Nov-05-Wed-2003/news/22521283.html) There have also been lots of indictments filed against porn companies via the PATRIOT Act (Don't have an article for it -- a few acquaintances of mine work at adult stores so I get a lot of info about the industry) There's no doubt that the PATRIOT Act is being abused against people who have no connection to terrorism. I mean, Hell, the General Accounting Office said that most of the people being charged with "terrorism" actually have nothing to do with terrorism. It's just more of the illusion of safety.

[YASNY]

There have been plenty of abuses of the PATRIOT Act from the investigation of strip clubs that had nothing to do with terrorism (http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/2003/Nov-05-Wed-2003/news/22521283.html)  There have also been lots of indictments filed against porn companies via the PATRIOT Act (Don't have an article for it -- a few acquaintances of mine work at adult stores so I get a lot of info about the industry)  There's no doubt that the PATRIOT Act is being abused against people who have no connection to terrorism.  I mean, Hell, the General Accounting Office said that most of the people being charged with "terrorism" actually have nothing to do with terrorism.  It's just more of the illusion of safety.

 

 

And really, that seems to be the main point of this thread. Thanks for steering it back on track.

[mreye]

There's a column in Salon.com by the Ask the Pilot guy that talks about how difficult it is to blind someone by a laser beam in a cockpit. The "temporary blinding" that they are talking about is more like the cockpit being briefly bathed in light rather than actual blinding. Although its not a great thing to do, this is hardly a sinister act.

 

The guy shouldn't get off. But he shouldn't be spending 25 years in the pen because he was looking at the stars with his daughter and a glorified laser pointer.

 

ACK! We agree again! WTF?

[mreye]

And really, that seems to be the main point of this thread.  Thanks for steering it back on track.

 

What's that supposed to mean? No, the main point of this thread was this guy and his case.

[Kid Gleason]

I've seen Star Wars like 100 times now, and if you don't think a laser can REALLY f**k you up, you're crazy!!! Prosecute the nut before he and the Emperor try and take over the world!

[YASNY]

ACK!  We agree again! WTF? 

 

 

I disagree. The main point of this thread was the abuse of the Patriot Act by our wonderful Federal Gov't.

 

See the thread title, if you have any questions.

 

EDIT: Damn new board ... this was supposed to be a response to Mr Eye's remark: "What's that supposed to mean? No, the main point of this thread was this guy and his case."

[Texsox]

While I don't like the Patriot Act, I'm not sure of your poll question? Are you asking, "Should he be prosecuted?" I say, YES! I don't think it's abuse. Contrary to what they tell us, I don't believe pointing a laser at a pilot would cause him to steer out of control, but I think this guy thought that it might and wanted to find out for himself. I think the worst part of this he won't even get charged for and that's blaming his daughter.  :headshake

 

I think he needs to be charged also. Just not 25 years.

 

My first thought was he was covering for his daughter. I know if the feds came to my house and it was my daughter and I and my daughter pointed it, I would take the blame in a heartbeat.

[mreye]

I disagree.  The main point of this thread was the abuse of the Patriot Act by our wonderful Federal Gov't.

 

See the thread title, if you have any questions.

 

EDIT: Damn new board ... this was supposed to be a response to Mr Eye's remark: "What's that supposed to mean? No, the main point of this thread was this guy and his case."

 

Yeah, but in this particular case, not the Patriot Act as a whole. I guess it really doesn't matter.

[LowerCaseRepublican]

The illusion of safety. Man, I feel better that this cold hearted bastard is gonna be off the streets for 25 years. The reason that there are prosecutions like this is so their conviction rates go up and the government can say "We're fighting terrorism! Look at our conviction rates!" when they are absolute bulls*** since most of the cases are not terrorism. (as seen in using the PATRIOT Act against strip clubs and adult entertainment firms that have nothing to do with terrorist threats)

[JUGGERNAUT]

A good reason why I am an unhappy GOP voter:

 

"He could get up to 25 years in prison and fines of up to $500,000."

 

That's crazy. The FBI acknowledge there was no terrorist connection.

Any one with a brain can tell that this was an inadvertent action. Just because it was an airplane doesn't mean people should go nuts.

 

The best analogy I can think of in this is a person running a red light.

Their action may cause an accident. If his action had caused any damage to the plane or the passengers then he should be held liable for that. The same he would if his running a red light caused an accident with a tour bus.

 

The Patriot Act goes to far on a lot of things. What was needed was an Act to allow the government to setup activities similar to the KGB to spy & prosecute FOREIGNERS.

 

With respect to domestic terrorism it's a different scenario entirely. McVeigh was not a member of a terrorist organization. He was a misguided person directed by drug dealers. They had a vice against the FBI & McVeigh had a vice against certain government institutions. Since the act he repented, showed remorse, asked for forgivness, & welcomed death as a consequence for his actions. On a domestic level the Patriot Act should apply to purchases of dangerous products. Products that can easily be used to fashion a bomb like the nitrogen compound in fertilzer.

But again, even that application should be exercised with great caution.

 

Apparently many in the GOP forgot that. Apparently their own individualistic ideas of what is required to make America safe has gotten in the way of their beliefs in freedom & democracy. Since the Patriot Act is NOT good for business maybe they will come to their capitalistic senses

if nothing else.

[LowerCaseRepublican]

Juggs, if you're such the supporter of free speech then you'd be against the government using the PATRIOT Act at all. Sorry but DSWM (Doing Stuff While Muslim) does not mean that they automatically deserve to go on a watch list and get harassed by the government. And sorry, we don't need a domestic KGB or Stasi in the United States to patrol America.

 

The government, to paraphrase US Rep. Ron Paul (R-TX), failed to show where having the civil liberties that the PATRIOT Act curtails negatively impacted the efforts to prevent 9-11 before it happened. What happened was that the PATRIOT Act was a grab bag of every a bunch of things the Justice Department wanted for years but could not get through because they were so odious to the Constitution. **Whammo** (9/11) Seize on everybodys' fears, print out the bill, don't let people read it, give it a sweet sounding name and we got the makings of a domestic Stasi.

 

USA PATRIOT Act: Unneeded Safeguard Abolition Preparing Americans to Readily Ignore Overt Totalitarianism -- that's what the acronym should really stand for.

[JUGGERNAUT]

This is generally related. We as a nation are becoming a society of knee-jerkers. It's represented by our electors.

 

America represents freedom & democracy above all else. At least it used to. That was the whole point. That's what made it a driving capitalist force & one of the freeest nations on the planet. Law & order was confined to that which was essential & minimal to maintian civilization & government & increase standard of living & quality of life. That was the founding principles of this nation.

 

If our founders were alive today each & every one of them would argue in favor of evangelical rights. They never intended for government to be so intrusive that it would violate the wishes of 99% of students, faculty, & parents serviced by a school so that the wishes of 1% could be met.

 

God forbid that a terrorist act be in commited by self-proclaimed Christians. The knee-jerk reaction to that would be to consider Christians speech & actions terrorist related activities no longer desired.

 

In the past 40 years America has gone from being a nation that cheerishes freedom to one that fears it. All of these knee-jerk reactions are indicative of that. It's crazy. Our founders would call us pansies. They were rebels & revolutionaries that founght for freedom & democracy. In doing so they lived amongst those who supported their enemies. They didn't impose knee-jerk laws for search & destroy missions on those persons. Instead they sought to win their hearts & minds to their side. Where is America's program to do that? Where is the program to convert terrorists? The KGB did not stop terrorism in the USSR & the Patriot Act won't do it here either. They are simply knee-jerk reactions that do nothing to impact the cause of terrorism. Why do terrorists exist & why does recruitment grow? That's what we should be focused on. That's what we should be trying to address.

[JUGGERNAUT]

Juggs, if you're such the supporter of free speech then you'd be against the government using the PATRIOT Act at all.  Sorry but DSWM (Doing Stuff While Muslim) does not mean that they automatically deserve to go on a watch list and get harassed by the government. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You can't simply ignore the existence of Jihad International. It exists. It has hdqtrs. It has camps training in every nation & it has gangs in every nation. in many nations including Pakistan & India it controls the local politics. It's very adept at weaving it's way through free nations. You have to address that somehow.

 

I agree that DSWM citizens should not put people on a watch list. My reason for doing is simple: Freedom of the American people outweighs the risk of any American person commiting an act of terrorism. Until I see a wealth of evidence to suggest otherwise there is no need to curtail that freedom.

 

But when it comes to foreigners it's not the same. They are not American citizens.

They may or may not believe in America's freedom & democracy. They have little to no connection with the American government. Thus the risk is much higher. There is considerable evidence to suggest that the risk of a foreigner commiting an act of terrorism outweighs the freedom of foreigners in America. But even if that's the case those freedoms should only be curtailed when absolutely neccessary & that act should occur with extreme caution. Profiling foreigners is one way of doing that.

[Rex Kickass]

This is generally related.  We as a nation are becoming a society of knee-jerkers.  It's represented by our electors.

 

 

 

You're correct. The President who makes snap judgments is considered "resolute." The Presidential candidate who said, we should think things out before making a decision, was considered "wishy-washy."

 

But nobody seemed to worry about knee-jerk reactions when considering who would have their finger on the button for the next four years. And nobody worried about knee-jerk reactions when PATRIOT was rushed through Congress. And nobody worried about knee-jerk reactions when Congress wrote the President a blank check to do what he wanted in Iraq, without having to back it up. Well, Senator Byrd did. But he's old. Paul Wellstone did too. But he's dead.

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

You had to know it wouldn't be long before the Patriot Act was used on a US citizen for something other than terrorism.

 

So it begins ....

 

 

So what? If the Patriot Act helps put this asshole away for a long time then so be it.

[LowerCaseRepublican]

So what?  If the Patriot Act helps put this asshole away for a long time then so be it.

 

Yes because shooting a plane with a laser pointer is the equivalent of accessorizing with dynamite.

[FlaSoxxJim]

So what?  If the Patriot Act helps put this asshole away for a long time then so be it.

 

But 25 years?? Asshole or not. let the punishment fit the crime. Give him a fine, a couple months in lockup, and a couple of years' probation.

 

It's like some jerk in airport security line who makes a stupid bomb joke. Absolutely he should know better than that, and absolutely there should be a harsh consequence for the action. But you can lock up an asshole like that for maybe 1 or 2 years and still make the point. He doesn't have to be taken from his family and from his position as a productive (if moronic) member of society, because of momentary poor judgement that had no tangible harmful consequences.

 

Like mandatory minimums for first time social drug offenders, these are not the people that need to be taking up space in the prisons for decades at a time.

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

Like mandatory minimums for first time social drug offenders, these are not the people that need to be taking up space in the prisons for decades at a time.

 

 

Now that you mention that....

 

Since most of those cases get thrown out of court anyway I liked the idea that one cop had to simply ticket these people.

 

However......endangering the lives of a couple of hundred people in the air and who knows how many on the ground is not something that should be dealt with by a slap on the wrist.

[FlaSoxxJim]

Now that you mention that....

 

Since most of those cases get thrown out of court anyway I liked the idea that one cop had to simply ticket these people.

 

However......endangering the lives of a couple of hundred people in the air and who knows how many on the ground is not something that should be dealt with by a slap on the wrist.

 

I like the Chicago ticketing idea as well.

 

As for the real danger the plane and its passengers were in, I'm leaving that to the qualified experts. In this case, they seem to agree it would be unlikely a pilot is incapacitated by the red light in the cockpit.

 

And I'm not saying the guy shouldn't have been pursued as he was. Obviously there are legitimate terror threats to be concerned about and the reports should be taken seriously. Which is why he shouldn't walk away with no consequences. But 25 years is "treating dandruff by decapitation."