Defense & baserunning

[BrandoFan]

as far as superstars are concerned. It's true, when both aspects of one's game are an unqualified liability (Frank, Edgar, Konerko, etc) it can't be a positive thing either way you look at it...BUT looking at what hapened to Jeter, A-Rod, Nevin and Griffey over the last few days, I can say with honesty that I'd rather Maggs let a few balls go for doubles/gets thrown out at home plate a few times and hits 40 homers and drives in 140 RBIs than to have him try for that elusive title of "best all-around RF in Chicago" and increase a chance of getting hurt two-, three-fold. Especially when taking into account the fact that this year is an absolute must as far as playoffs are concerned. For shizzle.

 

I mean, who knows if the Sox wouldn't have made playoffs had Frank not tore his tricept (which takes two years to fully heal according to some) in a silly attempt to prove to some fans that he's got "defensive grit". One thing is dor sure: I never , ever want to see it again nor do I want to see Valentin go down with pulled hamstring and not be the same for the remainer of the season even at the expense of not having Hawk praise him as "the best base-taker he's ever seen" anymore...Yes, freak injuries happen (Ventura, not that it couldn;t have been avoided in ST!) and are part of the game, but I do NOT WANT TO SEE ANYMORE HEAD FIRST SLIDES AND ALL OUT DIVES IN THE FIELD FROM ANYONE NOT NAMED AARON ROWAND or TONY GRAFFANINO. I'd rather CLee and Konerko and Maggs stay where they are defensively and base-running-wise, and instead concentrate on a little thing we call O.P.S. My nizzle.

 

One more thing: Everyone orgasms with exultory epithets when talking about King Vladimir who stole 40 bases last year forgeting that 1) he got thrown out a whopping 20 times and 2) it's a miracle he didn't break that steely wrist (until he shatters it that is) or dislocates an elbow of his. I can certainly see why Sosa likes himself in the morning a whole a lot better than he did in his "all-around", pre-98 days...

 

 

Should 5-tool-ness (which, let's face it, we ALL would like to see ideally) be encouraged in hitting superstars to a ridiculous point or not? Any thoughts?

[Molto]

I'll say this, if I was a manager (maybe some day) I wouldn't want any player on my team who is a afraid to get hurt.

 

not diving for the ball or sliding shows lack of hustle.

 

now obviously there are certain situations you just don't do it in.

 

Larry Walker this week was in right field The rockies were up two runs with a couple guys on base. the ball was hit to him and instead of taking it on a bounce and allowing one run, he dives and misses it. THAT is when you don't dive. now obviously if there is a man on third and two outs and you are up by one or even tied, you damn right you dive for that ball.

 

it all depends on the situation.

 

Griffey's injury today was done on a good play. it was the eighth inning, his team was only down one run and he went out and tried to make a HUGE play to keep things close. he got hurt from it, but that is just the way it is. I would rather Magglio Ordonez go all out on a play he should go all out of for and get hurt then see him ease up because of the fear of getting hurt.

[BrandoFan]

Griffey's injury today was done on a good play

 

It can be argued that Reds would have lost a game anyway and that Griff didn't have a chance on the play but dove regardless (vanity thing) and, most importantly, that the REDS ARE ALMOST CERTAINLY DONE FOR THE SEASON. Imagine yourself as a Red fan. I bet you're just bustling with pride right about now.

 

I would rather Magglio Ordonez go all out on a play he should go all out of for and get hurt then see him ease up because of the fear of getting hurt.

 

See I wouldn't. Not after what happened to Frank in 01, which ironically came HOURS after I had finished a heated online debate with you and fellas in which I argued that Frank was a pussy in many ways and that his delayed, reluctant dive (he was 6'5 and the friggin' bunt was not hit hard and was only 2 feet away!) in the 9th inning of the third game of ALDS in 2000 was one of the reasons for the heart-breaking defeat...So, hypothetically speaking, you LOSE Maggs and replace him with Daubach who can't hit lefties if his life depended on it and whose baserunning and defense are definately worse to say nothing of the sheer SHOCK that losing your leader would cause in Sox players and fans... Yeah, that would make winning the division that much easier

 

I agree, when Belle and Ramirez dogged it out on ground-outs it was ugly; I am not suggesting Maggs do that. But head-first dives into walls and full-speed collisions at home plate are NOT cool as far as your highest paid and most talented player is concerned IMO. I want to see Maggs turn into Edgar Martinez-Sammy Sosa hybrid this year, not the RF version of latter day Griffey.

 

You're a smart guy, rio. You should rethink your position a bit.

[Jim Fainter]

A lot of injuries would be eliminated if players would just slide feet first.

[BrandoFan]

A lot of injuries would be eliminated if players would just slide feet first

 

Actually, and this goes especially for taller and heavier players and non-basetealers, awkward and mechanically incorrect feet-first slides can cause HORRIFIC knee and anckle injuries.

[soxfan420]

A lot of injuries would be eliminated if players would just slide feet first

 

Actually, and this goes especially for taller and heavier players and non-basetealers, awkward and mechanically incorrect feet-first slides can cause HORRIFIC knee and anckle injuries.

I dont care who the player is i always want them goin balls to the wall, diving, running into walls showing great heart and hussel.

[BrandoFan]

I dont care who the player is i always want them goin balls to the wall, diving, running into walls showing great hear and hussel.

 

I guess I am in a minority, then.

[soxfan420]

I dont care who the player is i always want them goin balls to the wall, diving, running into walls showing great hear and hussel.

 

I guess I am in a minority, then.

yea if you cant play 100% of fear of injury you belong on the bench till you can.

[BrandoFan]

yea if you cant play 100% of fear of injury you belong on the bench till you can

 

You mean you live in the utopia where Maggs can be "sat" and Daubach or Rios can step in and drive in 140-150 runs? Jeez, it's not like I am proposing Maggs let the ball pass through the wickeds here...All I am saying is that he takes care of himself and doesn't take unecessary (and ill-advised considering Griffy didn;t have a chance on the play!) risks for the good of the team.

 

And do you realize that most players afraid of getting hurt, not just superstars. Even Rowand. It's no surprise that Maggs (and Arod) is not as good defensively and on the basepaths- the mofo wants to have a LONG career as a Hall of Famer when it's all said and done, esp. after seeing how Sammy transformed himself even at the expense of D. and BR. And I can't say I blame them-I would be doing the same thing if I were in their position.

 

It's all good and dandy to talk about valuing character, extra effort self-sacrifize, etc, but only from the sideline, about other people. Or is it the case of some people being entertained by crashes and collisions? I reckon there are quite a few folks out there who consider athletes dancing monkees who should entertain them, "play their money's worth"...and who practically orgasm at the sight of Theisman-esque injuries. They make me sick.

[Soxplosion]

It depends on the situation. If it was in the first inning of a not very important game, theres no way Id like to see him go all out and possibly hurt himself. If it was late and close in the same game, maybe, but not if you dont think you could make the play. Late in the season, against a rival, close and late, go for it. It all depends on the situation...

[BrandoFan]

It all depends on the situation...

 

Fair enough.

[clujer420]

Frank tore his tricept in a silly attempt to prove to some fans that he's got "defensive grit". 

 

Should 5-tool-ness (which, let's face it, we ALL would like to see ideally) be encouraged in hitting superstars to a ridiculous point or not? Any thoughts?

Players owe it to their employer, their fans, and most importantly THEMSELVES to give it 100% on every play. If that means laying out in an attempt to catch a line drive or deep flyball, he needs to do it. Why play and give it any less than a full-on honest effort? Seems pointless to me.

 

And your statement about Frank "trying to prove defensive grit" is silly. When Ichiro hit that ball, all Frank was trying to do was make the play and help his team win. He probably didn't think about it, it was just his natural instinct (a good instinct, mind you) -- go for a ball that is close. You razzed him for not diving in the 2000 ALDS, yet you criticize him for doing it in 2001? Seems contradictory to me. And IMO it doesn't matter whether it's a ST game or a WS game -- you go all out regardless.

 

As far as 5-tool players go, I agree that superstars that are primarily offensive-minded should not be encouraged to be something that they are not (such as a fast runner or a great fielder). The only players that should be encouraged to be 5-tool players are those that have the talent to do so.

 

Do you think guys like Willie Mays, Ty Cobb, or Ted Williams ever looked in the mirror and said "Ya know, I didn't go all out for that gapper yesterday, but at least I've got my health!"? Hell no, they wanted to win, and would have done anything and everything in their power to make that happen. Players of today should take the same approach, and those who don't should be ashamed of themselves.

[BrandoFan]

Clujer420 you make excellent points. Except for one: I meant that Frank shouldn't be playing a defensive position AT ALL, especially seeing how he cost us the game at Seatlle in ALDS; his and fans' eagerness to "prove" something (back then people were arguing tht Sosa is greater player than Hurt because he fields, etc) resulted in 2001 and 2002 seasons being wiped out JUST.LIKE.THAT.

 

Again, Griffey wouldn't have gotten to a ball and now bacause of it Red are out of playoffs. That's the price you pay I guess. Sox not making it deep into playoffs this year would be CATASTROPHIC on many levels.

 

There is a difference between not giving it your all like Manny Ramirez or Albert Belle and not taking stupid risks by refusing to diving head first into a wall/at 220 pound catchers at home plate. Big difference. This is not High Heat 2004- this is real life and superstars can go down in a jiffy. Ask yourself "Would a couple extra highlight reel defensive grabs make-up for an increased injury chance? "

[baggio202]

i think it depends on the player...if its thomas..id just assume he gets out of the way of one of an infamous magglio 6-4-3 instead of sliding and trying to break it up...franks getting up there in years now and 3 of the last 4 years he has been hurt...id rather see frank just give up at home and get tagged out instead of trying to run over a catcher...frank is not here to be a baserunner , he is here to hit 320 and drive in 130 runs (hopefully )

 

the other position i dont want to see guys go all out is pitcher...i dont want to see my pitcher diving after a short pop up that no one else can get to or worse , see them field a bunt or something and make an ackward throw , off balance throw to first...injuries to pitcher's arm are much more career threatening then injuries to everyday players..

 

now for everyone else on this team..they have to go all out all the time...other wise we see that lackadasical play that has become all too common the last 2 years

[BrandoFan]

You know what? I think JM agrees with me: after Frank and Jose's contention-derailing injuries in 2001, you haven't seen Lee, Magglio, Jose, Rowand and Co. run NEARLY as much as they did before last year.

 

I sure as hell don't want to see Jose try that extremely foolish, pointless play last year (for those of you who don't remember Frank hits a lazy groundball to SS with Jose at 1st. The shortstop naturally assumes it's an easy inning-ending force-out and take his sweet time, not realizing thatJose not oly got a great jump of Frank's bat, but is also running full speed...long story short Jose is safe but doing that his ankle bends at a rediculous angle and for a moment is seams like it's broken. Thank God it wasn't; Sox would still lose the game and twith Frank sucking it up, the season would not be salvaged.). Nor do I want him to try to steal bases in an attempt to prove he can swipe 20. We know he can, we know he is clutch and gives it his all 110% and is a true leader. We don;t need freak, meaningless plays on which it's easy to get hurt. I sure as hell don't. It's.not.worth.it.

[baggio202]

You know what? I think JM agrees with me: after Frank and Jose's contention-derailing injuries in 2001, you haven't seen Lee, Magglio, Jose, Rowand and Co. run NEARLY as much as they did before last year. 

 

I sure as hell don't want to see Jose try that extremely foolish, pointless play last year (for those of you who don't remember Frank hits a lazy groundball to SS with Jose at 1st. The shortstop naturally assumes it's an easy inning-ending force-out and take his sweet time, not realizing thatJose not oly got a great jump of Frank's bat, but is also running full speed...long story short Jose is safe but doing that his ankle bends at a rediculous angle and for a moment is seams like it's broken.  Thank God it wasn't;  Sox would still lose the game and twith Frank sucking it up, the season would not be salvaged.).  Nor do I want him to try to steal bases in an attempt to prove he can swipe 20.  We know he can, we know he is clutch and gives it his all 110% and is a true leader.  We don;t need freak, meaningless plays on which it's easy to get hurt.  I sure as hell don't.  It's.not.worth.it.

we dont run because we dont have any speed now that durham is gone and valentin is now in his mid 30's

[BrandoFan]

valentin is now in his mid 30's

 

Jose is still fast enough (as evidenced by him scoring from 1st on a double and 2nd on a single every damn time, something that even Rowand and Jimenez not always do) and get s good enough jumps to steal 15 out 20 bases. He stole 19 out 21 just 2 some years ago. Thje reason he doesn't run is because of that hamstring that get aggravated very often.

 

Otherwise I guess we should see Maggs and Lee steal 25 bases each very soon, then.

[witesoxfan]

When your second fastest guy on your team is your backup catcher(for now), that says something about your team right there. When your third fastest guy is your third catcher, that also says a lot more than what the above says about your team.

 

We are slow as hell on the bases.....but then again, so are the A's, except for Singleton. Slow teams can win....and I'm thinking that a good move would be to trade Lee at the break for Shannon Stewart....gets us a real good leadoff hitter and improves team speed....I don't care how bad his defense is. It can't be worse than Carlos's.

[BrandoFan]

a good move would be to trade Lee at the break for Shannon Stewart

 

1. Lee has deceptive speed. He stole 20+ bases 2 years ago, no? He is slower than Stewart but by no means a Konerko. Above average for a LF'er I think.

 

2. Lee is way too talented. Unless Stewart can play center field, I veto the trade proposal

 

With the exception of Frank, Crede and Hurt, we are NOT all that slow with the likes of Jimenez, Olivo, Magglio, Rowand, Borchard Lee and esp. Valentin all being able to score from 1st on a double down the line and swipe an occasional base or two and that's ALL you need. Can they steal 20+ bases each? Rowand, Olivo and Valentin could easily if they had 28-30 attempts each, which they won't so it's a moot point...but thene agin, lioke you said, we're a high-powered offense and will never be Minnesota-like. I am fine with that.

[witesoxfan]

a good move would be to trade Lee at the break for Shannon Stewart

 

1. Lee has deceptive speed. He stole 20+ bases 2 years ago, no? He is slower than Stewart but by no means a Konerko. Above average for a LF'er I think.

 

2. Lee is way too talented. Unless Stewart can play center field, I veto the trade proposal

 

With the exception of Frank, Crede and Hurt, we are NOT all that slow with the likes of Jimenez, Olivo, Magglio, Rowand, Borchard Lee and esp. Valentin all being able to score from 1st on a double down the line and swipe an occasional base or two and that's ALL you need. Can they steal 20+ bases each? Rowand, Olivo and Valentin could easily if they had 28-30 attempts each, which they won't so it's a moot point...but thene agin, lioke you said, we're a high-powered offense and will never be Minnesota-like. I am fine with that.

We are a high powered offense....but I'd like to mix in the hit-and-run a little more often

 

And if we can get Jimenez and Valentin stealing bases....then that will leave Frank with fat ones to keep them from stealing bases.....and Thomas can hit a 94 MPH fastball a long ways.

[BrandoFan]

We are a high powered offense....but I'd like to mix in the hit-and-run a little more often

 

Did you see what Valentin did on a 3-2 by Hurt single to left? He almost scored from 1st, I swear God. Lol.

 

And if we can get Jimenez and Valentin stealing bases....

 

They would both be on DL by June, lol

 

...then that will leave Frank with fat ones to keep them from stealing bases.....and Thomas can hit a 94 MPH fastball a long ways.

 

Frank's batspeed is gone compared to 2000; he always seems to barely foul off pitches down the middle, the very pitches lightening quick batspeed guys like Bonds and Sosa and Ramirez would deposit for 500 feet homers. I mean the effort is there, the famous hand-eye coordination too, but the reflexes and power just aren't IMO. Old Frank would be hitting 55 homers at the Cell.

[baggio202]

what is it about lee that has so many fans mesmorized???...he is w/o a doubt the dumbest ballplayer ive ever seen

 

shannon stewart for carlos lee??...id personally carry carlos on my back all the way to toronto if thats what it took to pull that deal off

[clujer420]

the effort is there, the famous hand-eye coordination too, but the reflexes and power just aren't

Hmmm...in game 1 or 2 of the Detroit series, Frank took an outside pitch, barely got the bat on it, and nearly hit it over the RF fence in 30 degree weather. I don't know how you can say his power has diminished.

 

And also, we don't need Frank to hit 50. We need Frank to do what he does best -- get on base (13 times in 6 games so far this year), hit the ball in the gaps, and drive in runs. If he can do those things, the Sox will put some very crooked numbers up in '03.

[BrandoFan]

what is it about lee that has so many fans mesmorized???...

 

-Top 10 batspeed in baseball maybe. It takes more tha that to hit good pithing on consistent basis, of course, but still the tools are there.

 

-power potential on par with Sammy Sosa (though he would need to hit the weights, Frank said they are working on it now, lol)

 

-How about newfound patience last year (60 walks in the last 3+ months is Sosa-esque BTW)?

 

-Let's try being a Cub Killer (how soon do we forget that game he singlehandedly won to salvage the series)?

 

-He stole 20+ bases a few years back and they said his defense is improving now to the point where he won;t be a liability anymore

 

--he is just a good-natured goof, a fan favorite who is only making 4 million a year with little downside. If he doesn;t work out, we can always plug Daubach or Valnezula or Boarchard in.

 

 

If he puts up a 900 OPS season, will you admit you were wrong about him, bags? I would if his OPS is below 800...

[Guest hotsoxchick1]

ok my two cents worth... brando.. asking players not to dive for balls and such is kinda like asking firemen not to go into a burning building to save someone from frying up.....or asking a cop not to chase the robber because he has a gun and may shoot.... players diving for plays is just like the risks that other professions take on a daily basis..... its all part of the job............