Bears Sign WR Muhsin Muhammad

[GoodAsGould]

unless we are planning on drafting another WR id like us to sign TJ Houshmandezeh very underated.

[knightni]

unless we are planning on drafting another WR id like us to sign TJ Houshmandezeh very underated.

Only problem I see with that is that he and Terrell have a similar attitude.

[Soxbadger]

Alot of these arguments have logical fallacies.

 

"Grossman did not throw a ball for 10 weeks"

 

Where exactly was he going to be throwing the ball during the playoffs? Last I checked the Bears were in the off-season during that time, so there was no real reason to rush him, or to have him throwing a ball in January when training camp doesnt start for months.

 

How stupid would it of been to rush Rex back in the offseason?

 

So stupid that its not even comprehendable.

 

Maybe they wanted him throwing for the combine or something in March?

 

And generally injury prone is College and Football, in College you take just as many bad hits. Grossman's injuries have not been the same, so there is no correlation.

 

1) Finger due to hit right before half, was hit going forward fell on hand wrong.

 

2) Knee due to foot getting stuck in astro turf.

 

SB

[TheBigHurt35]

And generally injury prone is College and Football, in College you take just as many bad hits. Grossman's injuries have not been the same, so there is no correlation.

 

Wrong, wrong, and wrong. On average, NFL players are much larger, stronger, and faster than college players. Guys like Ray Lewis, Derrick Brooks, Julius Peppers, and Rodney Harrison are few and far between in college football (and they get much larger and stronger after a few years in the pros). Pro football, however, takes only the best of the best from college. Therefore, because players are inherently much stronger and faster, it's an inherently more violent game.

 

Anyone who says that "you take just as many bad hits" in college as in the NFL is grossly misinformed.

 

Alot of these arguments have logical fallacies.

 

"Grossman did not throw a ball for 10 weeks"

 

Where exactly was he going to be throwing the ball during the playoffs? Last I checked the Bears were in the off-season during that time, so there was no real reason to rush him, or to have him throwing a ball in January when training camp doesnt start for months.

 

How stupid would it of been to rush Rex back in the offseason?

 

Torn tendons take A LONG time to heal. He would've been out for at least a month and a half, and that's IF they wanted to rush him back during the regular season. And, given that he's the future of the franchise, there's no way that would've happened.

 

"Logical fallacy," my ass. :rolly

Edited February 28, 2005 by TheBigHurt35

[witesoxfan]

There are very few talented backs in the later rounds of the NFL draft.  Adrian Peterson is a better option than anything that they'd be able to get after the third round.

 

Mewelde Moore was a 4th round pick, and he was very solid in his limited playing time last year. Rudi Johnson ran for 1454 yards. Domanick Davis almost ran for 1200 yards last year. Michael Pittman, while not starter material, was decent too, and would be a good backup back. Lee Suggs, while again, not spectacular, put up a 3.7 yards per carry average, which is decent enough, especially for a backup.

 

Those are just examples of players in the NFL right now, and there are even more then that.

 

The point of that is that there are solid guys all over, especially later in the draft, that you can get and can put up 1000 yards for you.

 

The other thing is how deep this draft really is at RB. The top 10 backs in the draft could all potentially be starters at some point in their careers.

[Soxbadger]

Bighurt,

 

Players are bigger, faster, stronger, has no correlation to the amount of injuries.

 

Neither of the injuries Grossman suffered were because of a "bigger stronger player", they were because of:

 

1) Using his hand to brace himself from falling.

 

2) Astro turf.

 

So your argument application to Grossman is faulty, because injury was not a result of bigger stronger players, it was a result of circumstances.

 

Also, I would like to see the injury rate for pro versus college, it is very similar. If you want to disprove it, provide some facts.

 

Second,

 

Are you a Dr?

 

Because unless you are a Dr, that has actual knowledge of Grossman's injury, you are purely speculating on how long he would be out for. Your 10 week assesment is nothing more than opinion.

 

Have you gone to medical school?

 

Or are you just an arm chair Dr with an agenda?

 

Because reading your posts seems to be making me regress back to Junior High.

 

SB

[TheBigHurt35]

Mewelde Moore was a 4th round pick, and he was very solid in his limited playing time last year.

 

Anybody would be successful running behind MIN's line with Culpepper and Moss keeping the DBs honest.

 

Agreed that some gems are found in the later rounds (wasn't Terrell Davis a sixth-round pick), but that's true for every position (Tom Brady, anyone?). However, you can't count on finding a diamond in the rough.

 

That said, the Bears definitely should use their third-, fourth-, or fifth-round pick on a RB, if for nothing else than to replace Forsey. But they have more pressing needs at QB and #2 WR.

[TheBigHurt35]

Bighurt,

 

Players are bigger, faster, stronger, has no correlation to the amount of injuries.

 

That's just a lie. The NFL will even tell you so, as that's the reason that they use to keep younger players like Clarett out of the league. It's for their own safety.

 

1) Using his hand to brace himself from falling.

 

2) Astro turf.

 

So your argument application to Grossman is faulty, because injury was not a result of bigger stronger players, it was a result of circumstances

.

 

(1) He must've been hit pretty hard if he tore a tendon in his hand to brace himself while falling. I've done that a number of times, yet have never been injured like that.

 

(2) Funny how nobody else on that same Astro Turf tore their ACLs.

 

Your points also suggest that Grossman is just plain soft. TWO major injuries in only SIX games. Not very Favre-esque, if you ask me.

 

Also, I would like to see the injury rate for pro versus college, it is very similar. If you want to disprove it, provide some facts.

 

How many RBs look like studs in college and then are constantly injured in the pros? I can name a few off the top of my head: Lawrence Phillips, Ki-Jana Carter, Curis Enis, etc. Why do you suppose that is?

 

Second,

 

Because unless you are a Dr, that has actual knowledge of Grossman's injury, you are purely speculating on how long he would be out for. Your 10 week assesment is nothing more than opinion.

 

Have you gone to medical school?

 

Or are you just an arm chair Dr with an agenda?

 

It doesn't take an M.D. to know that a torn tendon is a serious injury that will sideline a QB for many weeks.

 

I actually am a "doctor," but not an M.D. I have no agenda. I'm simply looking at a player who suffered TWO major injuries in only SIX pro starts and wondering if he has the long-term durability to make it in the pros.

 

Because reading your posts seems to be making me regress back to Junior High.

 

You're not qualified to question my education. I've achieved more academically than you probably ever will. Talk to me again after you get your Ph.D.

Edited February 28, 2005 by TheBigHurt35

[Soxbadger]

Bighurt,

 

If you would like to compare accolades, Ill give you a go. Im only 23 though, so if you lose to me it would be kind of embarrasing.

 

As for why they keep younger players out of the league, that is due to money, not safety. Larry Fitzgerald was in essence the same place, but for a technicality of going to a prep-school for 1 year in between HS and College, he was allowed to enter the pro's. Also they do not bar based on height, weight, etc, it is based on date of High School graduation. If I was to graduate High School early, I could enter the draft early.

 

Money, not safety.

 

The rest of your argument is based on, 2 injuries over 6 games. You use the small amount of time to justify injury problem.

 

Then you mention KJ, Enis, and Philips (who I thought was dropped not due to injury but because of criminal problems.)

 

Enis and KJ both had knee problems.

 

Notice pluralality on similar area of injuries.

 

Had Grossman injured the same leg, the same finger, the same anything maybe I could tag him with injury prone.

 

But your whole argument relies on 1 acl tear.

 

Lee Evans screwed up his knee in College, missed almost 2 years because of it, came back to the NFL and played fine.

 

Anyways, its clear that I will not convince you. It just is very hard to say that 6 games are indicitive of an entire career, especially when I saw both of the injuries occur, and the knee was completely a product of the playing field. Astro turf has been the cause of many knee injuries.

 

SB

[TheBigHurt35]

If you would like to compare accolades, Ill give you a go. Im only 23 though, so if you lose to me it would be kind of embarrasing.

 

If you're not in graduate or professional school right now, you've already lost.

 

Also they do not bar based on height, weight, etc, it is based on date of High School graduation. If I was to graduate High School early, I could enter the draft early.

 

Money, not safety.

 

What does date of high school graduation have to do with money? And who's the money going to? The NFL? The NCAA? I don't see it.

 

But your whole argument relies on 1 acl tear.

 

You forgot about Grossman's torn tendon. That's two major injuries.

 

My pont is this: The Bears are banking on Grossman being their franchise QB. Grossman certainly has the skills, but has had TWO major injuries in only six NFL starts. Is it possible that Grossman will still have a long, productive NFL career? Sure. But I'm not betting on it. Not after what I've seen. I think the Bears would be wise to acquire a veteran who is actually NFL-starter material (Hutchinson isn't) in the event that Grossman doesn't pan out in the long term. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree about this point.

[Soxbadger]

Ill be done with post grad next year.

 

The money goes to the NFL and NCAA. By keeping younger players out of the NFL, there is less risk in every single draft. Look at the NBA, the team has to weigh how an 18 year old compares to a 21 year old, they have to spend money and time researching these players, and there is a much greater risk associated with giving millions to a player with no College experience.

 

The NFL in essence has a farm system, in which they are able to cultivate talent in the NCAA, and then draft it when that talent is ready. Players like Adrian Peterson and M. Williams who would of been first round picks after their first years playing, are stuck in the NCAA where they take on 100% of the risk of playing. If they are injured while in NCAA, they are compensated $0. If they were able to be drafted, they would get a signing bonus which is guaranteed.

 

High School graduation is how your NFL draft eligibility is determined. You become eligible to enter the draft 3 years after your High School class graduated. For example, if I was a whiz kid and graduated High School at 14, per the Collective Bargaining agreement, I would be eligibile for the NFL at 17.

 

How is that a rule based on safety?

 

It clearly is not, it is based on forcing the player to be in the NCAA system for a minimum of 3 years, providing the NFL with more certainty about the player, and a better overall grasp of how the player will translate. If the rule was about safety, there would be a way to be declared medically safe by a Dr.

 

Should 6'4 250 lb who is 22, be considered different than a 6'4 250lb who is 21?

 

With out a medical examination, there is no way to judge who is "truely" safer. The 22 year old could have chronic injury problems, the 21 year old a spotless record. Its purely arbitrary.

 

I dont disagree with you that the 2 injuries should make Grossman's health, perhaps suspect. But I do not think that he is injury prone as of yet. The 2 injuries are at different locations and are completely unrelated.

 

SB

[AddisonStSox]

Badger, Keith, wite...logical arguements are clearly not working with this guy.

 

1) It's laughable to call Grossman "injury prone" for the reasons Badger so clearly listed. Look at his injury history dating back to high school, he is not "injury prone." That's absurd.

 

2) To think this year's RB class is not deep is insane. You obviously are not familiar with this class as there is talent from top to bottom. Ryan Moats, McLendon, Gore, Arrington, Barber III, Harris...I could go on, but why bother.

 

3) Adrian Peterson is better than anything you could get after the third round? HA-HA ROTFLMFAO

 

4) Hutchinson isn't "NFL material." Well, how can I aruge with that. If TheBigHurt35 on a White Sox message board says he can't cut it in the NFL, than he can't cut it. :headshake The Bears organization has said time and time again that they were very impressed with Hutchinson, given the limited time he was offered to learn one of the most complex playbooks in the NFL. But, you already knew that. Sorry, I think I'm going to have to go with the Bears organization on this one and say the guy can play football. Goof.

 

5) Have you ever played the QB position? I played the position for 10+ years and there are certain things you pick up on. 1) George still knows the game. 2) To think Kurt Warner is a viable option proves you have no handle on the situation 3) Hutchinson is huge, athletic, and accurate.

 

Look over the RB class, look at Adrian Peterson's talent, look over Grossman being "injury prone."

[TheBigHurt35]

Ill be done with post grad next year.

 

The money goes to the NFL and NCAA. By keeping younger players out of the NFL, there is less risk in every single draft. Look at the NBA, the team has to weigh how an 18 year old compares to a 21 year old, they have to spend money and time researching these players, and there is a much greater risk associated with giving millions to a player with no College experience.

 

The NFL in essence has a farm system, in which they are able to cultivate talent in the NCAA, and then draft it when that talent is ready. Players like Adrian Peterson and M. Williams who would of been first round picks after their first years playing, are stuck in the NCAA where they take on 100% of the risk of playing. If they are injured while in NCAA, they are compensated $0. If they were able to be drafted, they would get a signing bonus which is guaranteed.

 

Well, I see your point now. Then again, the NCAA's not helping their cause when it imposes minimum requirements on college test scores. That forces many talented players to turn to juinior colleges, which takes away a significant amount of money from the NCAA and screws up the NFL's "scouting system" because they're not playing against the same level of talent that they would at a major university.

 

Getting back to my original point, the NFL certainly is a more violent place than the NCAA. NFL players are, on average, much larger, faster, and stronger than than college players. Players get injured in college, but not nearly as much as in the pros.

[TheBigHurt35]

4) Hutchinson isn't "NFL material." Well, how can I aruge with that.  If TheBigHurt35 on a White Sox message board says he can't cut it in the NFL, than he can't cut it. :headshake   The Bears organization has said time and time again that they were very impressed with Hutchinson, given the limited time he was offered to learn one of the most complex playbooks in the NFL.  But, you already knew that.  Sorry, I think I'm going to have to go with the Bears organization on this one and say the guy can play football.  Goof.

 

Yeah, you go ahead and believe what Angelo and the other liars and weasels in the Bears organization tell you, tool. They really know what they're doing, as evidenced by their signing of Jonathan Quinn.

 

And saying that the Bears have "one of the most complex playbooks in the NFL" is laughable. Where did you get that crap from? Angelo? I'll bet he's never looked at Mike Martz's, Dick Vermeil's, Tom Moore's, or Andy Reid's playbooks.

 

1) George still knows the game.  2) To think Kurt Warner is a viable option proves you have no handle on the situation 3) Hutchinson is huge, athletic, and accurate.

 

(1) George can't read defenses and throws too many interceptions. That's why he hasn't played since 2001. Not to mention the fact that he's a locker room cancer.

 

(2) Warner was 6-4 with the Giants last season. He's also won a SB and multiple MVP awards. What the hell have Hutchinson, George, and Krenzel ever done?

 

(3) That's nice, but Hutchinson can't play QB.

Edited February 28, 2005 by TheBigHurt35

[AddisonStSox]

And saying that the Bears have "one of the most complex playbooks in the NFL" is laughable. Where did you get that crap from?  Angelo?  I'll bet he's never looked at Mike Martz's, Dick Vermeil's, Tom Moore's, or Andy Reid's playbooks.

 

Surely you're joking. Please, please tell me you're kidding.

 

Certainly you're familiar with former Bears offensive coordinator Terry Shea; the same Terry Shea that coached at Rutgers from 1996-2000.

 

Oh, you're not. Well, let me inform you then. Terry Shea had the single, largest, and most complex playbook in the NFL last year.

 

"highly complex offense ... will be difficult for Rex." -Shea

 

But, um, you knew that. You knew what kind of offense he ran for 5 seasons at Rutgers. You knew that his system requires an entire off-season of preparation for complete comprehension and execution.

 

Why don't you make like David Terrell and run the out pattern.

 

Go ride the pine, spike.

[TheBigHurt35]

Surely you're joking.  Please, please tell me you're kidding.

 

Certainly you're familiar with former Bears offensive coordinator Terry Shea; the same Terry Shea that coached at Rutgers from 1996-2000.

 

Oh, you're not.  Well, let me inform you then.  Terry Shea had the single, largest, and most complex playbook in the NFL last year. 

 

"highly complex offense ... will be difficult for Rex." -Shea

 

But, um, you knew that.  You knew what kind of offense he ran for 5 seasons at Rutgers.  You knew that his system requires an entire off-season of preparation for complete comprehension and execution.

 

You could say that about any WCO. Most take QBs about two years to learn. But you already know that, since you played QB for 10 years, right? What's so special about Shea's, other than the fact that it took college kids a while to learn it? Do you think that college or rookie NFL QBs can learn Mike Martz's, Andy Reid's, or Mike Shanahan's offenses in just one season?

 

Oh, and Shea's gone now because he couldn't get along with his coaching staff. Great move, Jerry Angelo. :rolly

 

Why don't you make like David Terrell and run the out pattern.

 

Go ride the pine, spike.

 

You're such a tool, it's not even funny. "I believe it because Angelo and Shea said so!"

Edited February 28, 2005 by TheBigHurt35

[knightni]

[GoodAsGould]

wow a lot of hate up in here... anyways Terry Shea was at least a top 5 playbook in difficulty in learning at least agree on that? And while Chad Hutchinson isnt starter material id think he is a pretty decent backup as good as most in the league...with a few exceptions.

 

Also im pretty sure Kurt Warner was only 5-4 and gimme a break if you think those wins were because of him... it was mostly Tiki Barber having a career year and strong defensive play that went down the s***hole after we injured both their DE's

 

Also if you thought Chad Hutchinson was brutal to watch, try seeing Warner behind an OL like ours every week and you will :puke

 

 

Finally on the Rex Grossman thing, since both his injuries were non related from one another i think as of now he should be given the benefit of the doubt that he isnt injury prone.... but if he gets injured again this year it might be time to look at USC in the draft next year.

[knightni]

It's the verbal comparison of a boxing match that degrades into Ultimate Fighting, then, into an episode of Cops.