Ok Arnold, don't wuss out.

[LowerCaseRepublican]

By the state legally murdering people, it will sure show that killing is wrong. /green.to.the.core. I just wonder if the politicians who greenlit all the executions of people who have now been exonerated will go to prison -- I mean, they did knowingly commit murder 2 (depraved indifference)

 

Supreme Court Justice Thurgood Marshall stated: "The death penalty is no more effective a deterrent than life imprisonment...It is also evident that the burden of capital punishment falls upon the poor, the ignorant, and the underprivileged members of society."

 

Hell, we're one of the few industrialized nations that still executes people.

 

And Nuke, the "racist" justice system was actually explicitly mention in McKleskey v. Kemp.

[Texsox]

350 copies?!  LMFAO!!!!  HAHAHAHA!!!! 

 

I think the Cripps, nationwide, probably are responsible for that many deaths, either directly or indirectly in a month let alone a year.  Lets do a little math here.  350x12 months x 20 years ( give or take ) = 84000 deaths since the Cripps were founded.  How many thousands more are in jail because of the Cripps? 

Someone gets it.

 

Yet, even after their fellow gang members have been executed, they still commit murder? I guess this isn't much of a deterrent.

[YASNY]

Yet, even after their fellow gang members have been executed, they still commit murder? I guess this isn't much of a deterrent.

 

String the son of a b**** up on the corner of Hollywood and Vine. That'll get their attention.

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

Yet, even after their fellow gang members have been executed, they still commit murder? I guess this isn't much of a deterrent.

 

 

We've been over this ground before Tex. The Death Penalty isin't a deterrent because it takes an average of 12 years to kill these assholes and it isin't imposed in a uniform manner.

 

You and LCR should save your tears for the thousands of victims created by this piece of s***.

[Texsox]

If a warden strapped a visitor to a gurney, injected a lethal dose of poison, and they died, he would have committed a sin in God's eyes, and murder in the state's laws.

 

If a warden straps someone down, who a jury ruled should die, then some believe it is not a sin.

 

Funny how man's laws can trump God's laws. The hubris is amazing.

[J-MAN]

My earlier post was a general discussion about why the death penalty is wrong in this country. Sorry if I confused anyone.

Yes he has. And you believe the government should be killing citizens. What does that say about how much we value life as a society? He should be locked up and never see the light of day.

 

Thou Shall Not Kill. It doesn't say, kill if a jury finds the person guilty. Kill if someone kills a cop or child, but not a middle age accountant.

As a middle age accountant - one life is less valuable than another ?

 

Anyone who kills another has no rights!

 

What about the rights of the people who were killed?

[SoCalSouthSider59]

350 copies?!  LMFAO!!!!   HAHAHAHA!!!! 

 

I think the Cripps, nationwide, probably are responsible for that many deaths, either directly or indirectly in a month let alone a year.  Lets do a little math here.   350x12 months x 20 years ( give or take ) = 84000 deaths since the Cripps were founded.  How many thousands more are in jail because of the Cripps? 

Someone gets it.

 

NUKE, the estimates they're giving here in L.A., and it's probably a low one, is 100,000 deaths, as a direct result of the Crips, since their founding in 1971, some say 1968, and have spread like an incurable disease across the United States. They have been around a lot longer than most people think........

 

I get it........

 

Edited December 12, 2005 by SoCalSouthSider59

[Texsox]

We've been over this ground before Tex.  The Death Penalty isin't a deterrent because it takes an average of 12 years to kill these assholes and it isin't imposed in a uniform manner.

 

You and LCR should save your tears for the thousands of victims created by this piece of s***.

 

LMAO, I'll kill someone as long as I get to sit on death row for 12 years!? Why aren't murders higher in states w/o the death penalty? Why are there still murders in Texas where we execute so many no one pays attention?

 

These guys are shooting at each other. They face a death penalty leaving their homes from a rival gang.

[YASNY]

I'm starting to get nausious. later folks.

[juddling]

Yet, even after their fellow gang members have been executed, they still commit murder? I guess this isn't much of a deterrent.

 

I know this would never happen but if we were to give a person a fair trial....one appeal then if the death penalty is applied do it with in a month...it might help. Ever since i was little, i couldn't figure out how or why people sit on death row for 18 or 20 years.

 

As far as being a deterrent...we excute a couple hundred gang members a year instead of 1 or 2 every 20....guess what.....some people might wake up.

[Texsox]

As a middle age accountant - one life is less valuable than another ?

 

Anyone who kills another has no rights! 

 

What about the rights of the people who were killed?

 

As a society we have decided that certain murders "qualify" for the death penalty. Cops, kids, multiples, during another crime, etc. and others do not. Either way a person is dead, but we value some lives more than others in the death penalty laws.

 

What "right" are you speaking about for the victim? You are confusing revenge with "rights". We do not allow a robbery victim the "right" to go rob the thief. We do not give a shooting victim the right to later shoot the convicted.

 

And this is about "rights" it's about the value of human life and who determines who is to live and who is to die. The murderer made that decision and should be punished. The state should not make that same decision.

[Texsox]

I know this would never happen but if we were to give a person a fair trial....one appeal then if the death penalty is applied do it with in a month...it might help.  Ever since i was little, i couldn't figure out how or why people sit on death row for 18 or 20 years.

 

As far as being a deterrent...we excute a couple hundred gang members a year instead of 1 or 2 every 20....guess what.....some people might wake up.

 

Texas executed 4 people last month. Gang on gang murders are #1 in most cities, these guys already face the death penalty standing on the corners, protecting their turf. Do you think they will suddenly drop the guns and pick up knitting needles if they thought the state might execute them in a year? GMAB

[SoCalSouthSider59]

I can't wait till Cali executes Scott Peterson too, another piece of s*** that should have already been taken out and shot. But alas, i'll have to probably wait until i'm in my late 60's for that one.......

 

It's not about race with me folks, murderers are all equal, and should be treated as such!

 

See my avitar>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

 

[LowerCaseRepublican]

String the son of a b**** up on the corner of Hollywood and Vine.  That'll get their attention.

YAS, don't mean to call you out -- I'm just making a general discussion and happened to quote your post when I wrote.

 

YAS, I think you'll agree that capital punishment is only treating the symptom rather than the root cause of the disease. We're only decades from the Supreme Court case of Brown vs Board (actually had the opportunity to meet one of the kids from that decision...pretty cool experience) So we've got a generation of minorities who have first hand experience in legal segregation. Add on to that that we've got a generation who lived through Jim Crow and the animosity to integration -- getting low quality education because of that...And now -- I don't know if you've heard of Jonathan Kozol's new book (he's an education advocate that wrote "Savage Inequalities") "Shame of the Nation", we've got the return of quasi-apartheid in the nations' schoolrooms.

 

The playing field is by no means level (and let's not even get into a discussion of the extralegal methods used by the FBI via COINTELPRO to murder/destabilize progressive movements that looked to begin to fix these social problems -- and please, don't demonize the BPP because it is quite a well known fact that Panties Wearin' Hoover was quite the racist & reading the FBI memos, that is the purpose for the COINTELPROS against those organizations)

 

As Dr. King said (and I'm paraphrasing here): It is an insult to tell people with no boots to pull themselves up by their bootstraps.

 

And from Bulworth (1998)

Sen. Bulworth: Why do you think there are no more black leaders?

 

Nina: (after a pause)

Some people think it's because they all got killed. But I think it's got more to do with the decimation of the manufacturing base in the urban centers. Senator, an optimistic population throws up optimistic, energized leaders. And when you shift manufacturing to the Sun Belt in the Third World, you destroy the blue-collar core of the black activist population.

 

Some people would say that problem is purely cultural. The power of the media that is continually controlled by fewer and fewer people, add to that the monopoly of the media, a consumer culture based on self-gratification, and you're not likely to have a population that wants leadership that calls for self-sacrifice.

 

But the fact is, I'm just a materialist at heart. But if I look at the economic base, higher domestic employment means jobs for African Americans. World War II meant lots of jobs for black folks. That is what energized the community for the civil rights movement of the 50's and the 60's. An energized, hopeful community will not only produce leaders but more importantly it'll produce leaders they'll respond to.

Now what do you think, Senator?

 

--

People have already written off inner city youth and the disproportionately minority class as potential criminals. Add into that, the white flight and redlining which have decimated property taxes in schools (I'm doing my student teaching in a school in January that used to be part of a big manufacturing town. The plants went to Mexico and now the town has been pretty much obliterated with unemployment etc. They don't even have the funds to get every kid in the class a textbook) and you've got a class of people still not receiving quality educations in desegregated classrooms decades after Brown v. Board. Add in the fact that almost every black leader gets demonized (Sharpton, Jackson, etc. -- and that's not to say that there isn't stuff worth criticizing them about...but at least they're trying to get off their ass and do something) or murdered (Fred Hampton, MLK, Malcolm X, et al.) and a justice system that is disproportionately condemning minorities to death (see McKlesky v. Kemp et al. for more information), it is no wonder why there is no hope & people are more willing to join street gangs. If they're believing that they're going to die and get treated like s***, they might as well try to make some fast cash while doing so.

 

Stopping violence is a lot more complex and a lot more difficult than putting a needle in peoples' arms.

[Texsox]

I'm starting to get nausious.  later folks.

 

I'm with YAS, I'm just repeating myself.

[BHAMBARONS]

The fact is Williams was found guilty in a court of law and the trial was conducted properly and the sentence most certainly fits the crime now he needs to face his punishment.

 

 

I am a strong believer in the death penalty when used correctly a case down here in bama where these two druggies killed 3 cops by shooting them each at least 40 times. In the first case the jury gave life but the judge Nall overturned it and gave death which was the first time that ever happened in Bama, the second defender was given death by Judge Nall on Friday. These 2 as an extra insult keep sending letters to the victims rejoycing in there acts, the second offender when he walked into the courtroom Friday pointed at the victims and said you better hope I get the death Penalty or I will remind you everyday about what happened. As long as there is solid proof I have no problem using the death peanlty.

[sec159row2]

I think Arnie is gonna wuss out because of the threat of riots.

 

 

Let them riot, they have to live there. Those people who riot have no respect for their surroundings. Don't they realize they are destroying their own neighborhoods?

[EvilMonkey]

Texas executed 4 people last month. Gang on gang murders are #1 in most cities, these guys already face the death penalty standing on the corners, protecting their turf. Do you think they will suddenly drop the guns and pick up knitting needles if they thought the state might execute them in a year? GMAB

 

 

I would hope that if the excutions start coming a bit more quickly...than maybe...just maybe a few people in the next generation would think twice before hooking up with a gang. Besides....as you say...they already face a death penalty standing on the corners but there is one difference......the goverment kills you it doesn't miss and take out the 7 year old playing in his living room!!!!!

[sec159row2]

I envy your ability to see everything as so black and white, Nuke.

 

Williams is absolutely the perfect candidate for clemency, and his sentence should be commuted to life imprisonment.

 

He has reformed himself to about the highest degree anyone can.  His books, web community intervention sites, etc., as well as his changed life in prison is testament that people can and do change.

 

Admittedly a Crip co-founder, and possibly guilty of the murder charges during the robberies he went to tial for, justice certainly can be served by keeping him incercerated for the rest of his life.  But several constitutional violations and extraordinary circumstances surrounding his trial should alone be sufficient for clemency if there was any real justice.

 

Above and beyond that, Williams is an asset to society for the work he has done from inside prison.  life without parole is a plenty severe sentence, and it allows Williams to continue to serve as a role model/cautionary tale and to continue to affect positive change.

 

Obviously the most liberal court of appeals in the country (9th Circuit), found no constitutional problems with his conviction. Hence, fry the bastard. You do not grant clemency to someone because they have supposedly been reformed. He is a heartless bastard who has never shown any remorse for his actions. And these hollywood libs are a joke.

[LowerCaseRepublican]

I would hope that if the excutions start coming a bit more quickly...than maybe...just maybe a few people in the next generation would think twice before hooking up with a gang.  Besides....as you say...they already face a death penalty standing on the corners but there is one difference......the goverment kills you it doesn't miss and take out the 7 year old playing in his living room!!!!!

Occassionally the state just misses and executes an innocent person.

[Steff]

Occassionally the state just misses and executes an innocent person.

 

 

 

Or, by some miracle, retests the evidence and finds that the wrong person has been in jail for years and years..

 

The system is not free from errors.

 

I don't know enough on this case to have an opinion from that view.

[LowerCaseRepublican]

Obviously the most liberal court of appeals in the country (9th Circuit),  found no constitutional problems with his conviction. Hence, fry the bastard. You do not grant clemency to someone because they have supposedly been reformed. He is a heartless bastard who has never shown any remorse for his actions. And these hollywood libs are a joke.

If we remember the original idea for why prisons were made it was...and say it with me...::drum roll:: REHABILITATION. Clemency is just for the purpose of a person who, if left alive, would not be a clear and present danger to the public. If he is locked up for life in prison, he is not a clear and present danger. There is no need to execute him, except for primal and banal bloodlust. Killing him doesn't bring back those who have died & all it leaves is one more corpse.

 

And why not respond to my other longer post (not just you but anybody here).

[sec159row2]

I can't wait till Cali executes Scott Peterson too, another piece of s*** that should have already been taken out and shot. But alas, i'll have to probably wait until i'm in my late 60's for that one.......

 

It's not about race with me folks, murderers are all equal, and should be treated as such!

 

See my avitar>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

 

 

 

Right on southside!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[BHAMBARONS]

Occassionally the state just misses and executes an innocent person.

 

 

That's is why I only favor it when the evidence is so conclusive that there could not be anyone else who committed the crime and that the crime meets at least 4 of the 5 point criteria

 

1. Murder committed to cover up another crime

 

2. Committed during the act of another of another Part 1 crime

 

3. The crime(s) placed the people in extreme danger

 

4. Murder of 2 or more people at the same time

 

5. Murder occurred while trying to prevent arrest

[YASNY]

Occassionally the state just misses and executes an innocent person.

 

And occasionally, they let these mofo's out because they appear to be reformed. And they kill again and again. No "system" is perfect. However, when they do get to the point of execution, it shouldn't be "lie down, go to sleep and never wake up" with nobody watching. Public hangings in the town square would help with the "lack of deterance" problem that so many cling to in these debates.