White Sox Fan For Life Posted April 13, 2006 Author Share Posted April 13, 2006 QUOTE(Steff @ Apr 13, 2006 -> 09:43 AM) Gotcha. But hey thanks for letting me know that you think that curses are totally BS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyyle23 Posted April 13, 2006 Share Posted April 13, 2006 QUOTE(White Sox Fan For Life @ Apr 13, 2006 -> 09:20 AM) But you also need to ask yourself if Boston Fans really believe in the Curse of the Great Bambino? And if those fans believed that the Curse was alive on October 25 then why was Buckner never grant any leniency like Alex Gonzalez who bobbled the ball too in game 6 of the NLCS? Why did Buckner have to leave his home in New England and move to Idaho because he was sick and tired of hearing crap. Buckner even states this in Sports Illustrated magazine that was released on July 26, 1993 "At least once a week during the season, something is said...Why put up with it?" How come Red Sox fans didn't turn their cheek and say "it's okay it wasn't your fault that we lost game 6 it was the curse?" The Red Sox also had one more chance too. Your examples arent disproving any sort of a curse or any belief or disbelief that New Englanders(sp? is that a word?) have in a curse. Buckner moved from his house because people in New England were assholes to him . It has nothing to do with a curse. And for the record, you have been changing your question the whole time, not me. I told you I believed in curses as much as I believe in luck. they have a part in the game, but they dont completely control the game. You disagree with me, so you are trying to throw all these examples at me that have NOTHING to do with curses. Who cares if Bill Buckner moved? It had nothing to do with him making that error. Why did Schiraldi suddenly lose it with two outs? Why did the Cubs lose in 1984 and 1989? Why did the White Sox lose the world series in 59 after busting open the first game with an ass-whoopin? Why Did the White Sox lose in 1983 after being up in the series? Why oh why pitch to Tito? You are basing your entire theory of curses off of two moments, 2003 Cubs and 1986 Red Sox, when in reality the curses that surround those Cubs are way deeper than that. Decades of coming oh so close and never actually winning. It didnt make sense, and it still doesnt. Why is it that Florida can win two World Series within a 6 year span and in the first decade of thier existence, when Clubs that have been in the league for a century cannot win one within 90 years? It doesnt make sense. You would think that at some time within those storied histories they would be a time when they would have won, but they didnt. There is another player in this hand, and he keeps quiet but makes big moves. Call it what you want, good luck, bad luck, curses, good fortune. The ball never bounces the same way. I choose to view it as something magical about the game. We have seen that curses can be overcome, and while I laugh at their current futility, I believe that the Cubs will get theirs sometime. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Sox Fan For Life Posted April 13, 2006 Author Share Posted April 13, 2006 QUOTE(rudylaw @ Apr 13, 2006 -> 10:07 AM) Superstitions yes, curses no. I believe in superstitions to and not curses. Like for example if I was standing in the exact same position when Posednik steals four bases in a game with out getting thrown out. And if I move from that position and for the next stolen base he tries to go for it but only to find out that he gets caught out. Then I would move to the exact same position I was at when Posednik didn't get thrown out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Sox Fan For Life Posted April 13, 2006 Author Share Posted April 13, 2006 QUOTE(kyyle23 @ Apr 13, 2006 -> 08:14 AM) Yeah, but you are only looking at curses in a very small window of time. How would you feel about curses if you were actually around when the blacksox scandal broke, and lived your entire life without seeing the Sox develop any sort of consistent success, and never winning the world series in your lifetime? I think you would view curses much differently then. Its easy for us to all say "Curses are horses***, we just disproved them.", but there were damn near 90 years passed before the White Sox made a serious pass at the World Series again ('59 notwithstanding), I bet there have been plenty of Chicagoans in that span of time who would tell you the White Sox were cursed. Personally, I guess I believe in curses as much as I believe in luck. I believe that when Bartman deflected that ball, the entire feeling in Wrigley was changed for the worse, and everyone saw the Cubs implode before they actually did. I know I did. We all knew the series was over RIGHT THERE. I dont know how to explain it, but it was just simple to me, the Cubs were going to lose after that happened. Was it a curse working its effect? Maybe. I cant tell you for sure. You did tell me how you felt about curses in baseball but then you started to ask me how would I feel if the White Sox were in the same position? So I am not the one who got off track. My examples are approving, because it is asking the question that if there really were a curse in baseball that when a baseball player on a supposedly cursed team makes an error in a game why is it in the outcome that player has to hear crap from everyone? Why is their no leniency for that? Isn't it suppose to be the curses fault on why a team looses if people so happened to believe in a curse and not on the team's performance? So what if the White Sox won the first game in the 1959 World Series against the Dodgers and lost the other games. It was not a curse because their are days when teams have their good games and when teams have their bad games. So if you are saying that if a team goes on a losing streak just right after having a great winning streak they are assumed to be cursed? Their could be other factors why the Marlins win a World Series every six years which is they go on a fire because they can't afford to keep their players who become free agents and then ask for a higher salary. When rookies come up to the big leauges their is an unlikely chance that they will have an extremely great year. A rookie needs to develop through a course of time to be good in the game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyyle23 Posted April 13, 2006 Share Posted April 13, 2006 (edited) QUOTE(White Sox Fan For Life @ Apr 13, 2006 -> 10:36 AM) So what if the White Sox won the first game in the 1959 World Series against the Dodgers and lost the other games. It was not a curse because their are days when teams have their good games and when teams have their bad games. So if you are saying that if a team goes on a losing streak just right after having a great winning streak they are assumed to be cursed? You are too short sighted on this. 90 years of not winning. Not a losing streak. 90 freaking years of losing. The law of averages should have smacked these teams in the face 50 years ago. When rookies come up to the big leauges their is an unlikely chance that they will have an extremely great year. A rookie needs to develop through a course of time to be good in the game. This, once again, has nothing to do with your theories of curses. You did tell me how you felt about curses in baseball but then you started to ask me how would I feel if the White Sox were in the same position? So I am not the one who got off track. That was me trying to get you to understand the frustration that builds over many years of not winning, and how fans start to beleive in curses. Everything is coming up roses for us now, the White Sox were Champs in 05. Before 05, there were plenty of naysayers and guys who didnt believe they would ever see the White Sox win it all. And those were fans. Then you want to start throwing random things into the equation like why Bill Buckner moved which have nothing to do with the curse. Edited April 13, 2006 by kyyle23 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Sox Fan For Life Posted April 13, 2006 Author Share Posted April 13, 2006 Then you want to start throwing random things into the equation like why Bill Buckner moved which have nothing to do with the curse. It is not random at all, because Buckner was tired of hearing crap for a mistake that happened years ago. So the only resolution was to move as far away from it all. You see Buckner played on the side of the supposedly cursed team and he was the one who in the eyes of the world called him a mistake. Now if there was really a curse then why didn't other Red Sox fans say to Buckner "Hey we know our team is cursed so that ball that last play which was an error for you was not your fault. You know it was the curses fault. It was just old Babe Ruth's apparition in the ball just to punish us Red Sox fans." I am asking you how come that didn't happened. All these individuals getting blamed for something and yet again no one tells them its okay it was the curse. I am not throwing random things in this equation I am also showing you things that you probably have not taken into consideration. See you were the one who happened to mentioned the Marlins and how they never really win a World Series in a six year span. Did the thought of the development of rookies and players to become and achieve to be a great team takes time to accomplish? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pants Rowland Posted April 13, 2006 Share Posted April 13, 2006 QUOTE(kyyle23 @ Apr 13, 2006 -> 10:41 AM) You are too short sighted on this. 90 years of not winning. Not a losing streak. 90 freaking years of losing. The law of averages should have smacked these teams in the face 50 years ago. At risk of offending you (and others), I have to say belief in curses and luck is the mindset of a sucker. Luck is when preparation meets opportunity. Nothing more, nothing less. Maybe it is my staunch atheism talking, but the only reason that curses or luck or god exist is because people are naive enough to believe in them. It gets to the point where it consumes their very existence such that the belief in the curse is what causes the futility, not the supposed curse itself. You mention defying the odds. Go take a look at the history of world series winners since the first series at the turn of the last century. I do not have it in front of me right now, but if I recall correctly, the Yankees have been in something like 35% of the WS and won nearly 25%. After the Yankees, I think the Cardinals, Boston and the NY Giants come next, but the drop off in championships is huge. After that the number if championships per franchise in really low. The White Sox are actually not doing to poorly with 3 championships. A lot of teams have only won one or two. The Marlins are a total aberration with their 2. Based on history and trends, the Cubs 2 WS titles are not as bad as you would think. The fact is the Yankees expect to win and there is pressure for them to win every year. They do not expect some supernatural force to screw up their chances. Thus, their mind is clear to perform. They know the blame will fall squarely on their shoulders if they do not hoist the trophy come October. Don't underestimate the power of suggestion with the Cubs. If you think something might happen, it probably will. Not because you are cursed, but because you lost your focus. You were thinking about how you were going to celebrate before the game was over. I am not a Marxist, but religion is truly the opiate of the people. We like to blame or credit fate and God and Satan for all that is good and bad in the world but we forget that great human beings typically rise to the occassion and write their own story. To get back to the topic at hand, I think Crash David said it best in Bull Durham..."If you believe you're playing well because you're getting laid, or because you're not getting laid, or because you wear women's underwear, then you ARE!" The fact is too many people (including some players) believe in curses and are reduced to futility as a result of their beliefs. That is what caused Ozzie to be such a successful influence over the team and led to a title. He did not believe in any of that bunk and refused to make excuses for failure. His attitude was don't make excuses. Play the game right, stay focused and the results will speak for themselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Sox Fan For Life Posted April 13, 2006 Author Share Posted April 13, 2006 QUOTE(Beltin'Bill @ Apr 13, 2006 -> 11:07 AM) If you think something might happen, it probably will. Not because you are cursed, but because you lost your focus. You were thinking about how you were going to celebrate before the game was over. You said it best for me! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pants Rowland Posted April 13, 2006 Share Posted April 13, 2006 QUOTE(White Sox Fan For Life @ Apr 13, 2006 -> 11:15 AM) You said it best for me! Feel free to call me for help with the thesis. What type of class is this anyway? I hope not theology. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Sox Fan For Life Posted April 13, 2006 Author Share Posted April 13, 2006 QUOTE(Beltin'Bill @ Apr 13, 2006 -> 11:28 AM) Feel free to call me for help with the thesis. What type of class is this anyway? I hope not theology. This is for my college writing II class and our teacher assigned us a thesis statement paper to do. So my thesis is "Curses in baseball don't exist." All my thesis statements have to be about baseball one way or another. Like when I was in high school I had a thesis statement project to do. My papers revolved around the issues like Shoeless Joe Jackson being innocent of not throwing the 1919 World Series on purpose and for my last term I wrote about how Ozzie Guillen is entitled to the first amendment. I wrote this paper when Ozzie was commenting on A-Rod's decision on who to play for in the World Baseball Classics. The media was all over Ozzie so that they gave me the idea in my College Writing I class that how come is it okay for certain individuals to speak out their mind without being criticized and their are others like Ozzie that get viewed as the bad guy. I got an A on that paper! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pants Rowland Posted April 13, 2006 Share Posted April 13, 2006 By the way, I think polling people here or in other chats may not be the most sound manner of supporting your anti-curse argument. I agree that the world of major league baseball is excellent subject matter due to the number of teams that have had supposed curses attached to them. However, rather than talking to a bunch of idiots like us, you ought to do a thorough analysis of each team in modern baseball history to illustrate how spread out eras of success are for each individual team. The Cubs are one of many teams without a championship in decades. My guess is each franchise has had prolonged periods of futility and brief periods of success. The Braves, Yankees, and Cardinals are the exception in recent history and one of these three teams have more than one title in the past several decades. If I am not mistaken, the Braves have only one title in their entire Atlanta existence. I am not sure they won one in Milwaukee or way back when they were in Boston either. Anyway, you can do the research. Couple that with research in the field of psychology that deals with the idea of a placebo effect (or in this case a reverse placebo) and you should have a good basis for illustrating that talk of curses is unfounded no matter how lengthy the title drought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Controlled Chaos Posted April 13, 2006 Share Posted April 13, 2006 QUOTE(White Sox Fan For Life @ Apr 13, 2006 -> 10:36 AM) You did tell me how you felt about curses in baseball but then you started to ask me how would I feel if the White Sox were in the same position? So I am not the one who got off track. My examples are approving, because it is asking the question that if there really were a curse in baseball that when a baseball player on a supposedly cursed team makes an error in a game why is it in the outcome that player has to hear crap from everyone? Why is their no leniency for that? Isn't it suppose to be the curses fault on why a team looses if people so happened to believe in a curse and not on the team's performance? So what if the White Sox won the first game in the 1959 World Series against the Dodgers and lost the other games. It was not a curse because their are days when teams have their good games and when teams have their bad games. So if you are saying that if a team goes on a losing streak just right after having a great winning streak they are assumed to be cursed? Their could be other factors why the Marlins win a World Series every six years which is they go on a fire because they can't afford to keep their players who become free agents and then ask for a higher salary. When rookies come up to the big leauges their is an unlikely chance that they will have an extremely great year. A rookie needs to develop through a course of time to be good in the game. 'there' meet 'their' When you write your paper differentiate between the two. Good luck!! FTR...I don't believe in curses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Sox Fan For Life Posted April 13, 2006 Author Share Posted April 13, 2006 Actually I just needed some people's opinions on how they feel about curses in baseball. Also another reason I wrote this paper because my teacher is a Cub fan and she believes in curses in baseball so I am doing this just to get a rise out of her. One day she said that I didn't have a good enough information because I found a lot of people stating their opinions in the Sun Times, The Tribune, MLB.com's articles on curses and I use that against her and she still didn't except it. So I decided to post this on this little thread on soxtalk since there are so many people who use this site who are not from Chicago too and they can tell me their own opinions as well! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Sox Fan For Life Posted April 13, 2006 Author Share Posted April 13, 2006 QUOTE(Controlled Chaos @ Apr 13, 2006 -> 11:51 AM) 'there' meet 'their' When you write your paper differentiate between the two. Good luck!! FTR...I don't believe in curses. Thank you so much grammar police! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pants Rowland Posted April 13, 2006 Share Posted April 13, 2006 QUOTE(White Sox Fan For Life @ Apr 13, 2006 -> 11:55 AM) Actually I just needed some people's opinions on how they feel about curses in baseball. Also another reason I wrote this paper because my teacher is a Cub fan and she believes in curses in baseball so I am doing this just to get a rise out of her. One day she said that I didn't have a good enough information because I found a lot of people stating their opinions in the Sun Times, The Tribune, MLB.com's articles on curses and I use that against her and she still didn't except it. So I decided to post this on this little thread on soxtalk since there are so many people who use this site who are not from Chicago too and they can tell me their own opinions as well! I agree with your instructor (on your support mechanism, not curses). Stacking up opinions from a less than perfect sample is a very flawed method to support your argument. I would wager that more people on average buy into the curse thing. Even a well run public opinion poll (should include a broad, random sample of the population as a whole and include at least 30 participants to be valid) is probably going to work against you. If you really want to make a compelling argument, you need facts, not opinions. I think the facts are there that there are plenty of other teams that have experienced long championship droughts or overall futility with maybe one title sandwiched in between (see original Washington Senators for a great example on that front). The vocal nature of Cubs and Red Sox fans about curses just happened to draw attention to their futility when there have been plenty of other teams suffering along the way. The White Sox are a great example of a team that never mentioned curses yet endured a championship drought loner and more miserable than that the of the Red Sox. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Sox Fan For Life Posted April 13, 2006 Author Share Posted April 13, 2006 I agree with your instructor (on your support mechanism, not curses). Stacking up opinions from a less than perfect sample is a very flawed method to support your argument. I would wager that more people on average buy into the curse thing. Even a well run public opinion poll (should include a broad, random sample of the population as a whole and include at least 30 participants to be valid) is probably going to work against you. If you really want to make a compelling argument, you need facts, not opinions. I think the facts are there that there are plenty of other teams that have experienced long championship droughts or overall futility with maybe one title sandwiched in between (see original Washington Senators for a great example on that front). Well I use the definition of a curse in my paper and it mentions something with the supernatural being involved too. I also talk about the 1986 World Series and I mentioned where was the signs of the supernatural their? As I recall an error that Buckner made was not a mistake by the supernatural but a mistake by a human. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyyle23 Posted April 13, 2006 Share Posted April 13, 2006 (edited) QUOTE(White Sox Fan For Life @ Apr 13, 2006 -> 10:59 AM) Then you want to start throwing random things into the equation like why Bill Buckner moved which have nothing to do with the curse. It is not random at all, because Buckner was tired of hearing crap for a mistake that happened years ago. So the only resolution was to move as far away from it all. You see Buckner played on the side of the supposedly cursed team and he was the one who in the eyes of the world called him a mistake. Now if there was really a curse then why didn't other Red Sox fans say to Buckner "Hey we know our team is cursed so that ball that last play which was an error for you was not your fault. You know it was the curses fault. It was just old Babe Ruth's apparition in the ball just to punish us Red Sox fans." I am asking you how come that didn't happened. All these individuals getting blamed for something and yet again no one tells them its okay it was the curse. I am not throwing random things in this equation I am also showing you things that you probably have not taken into consideration. See you were the one who happened to mentioned the Marlins and how they never really win a World Series in a six year span. Did the thought of the development of rookies and players to become and achieve to be a great team takes time to accomplish? I wish you understood, but sadly you dont. Good luck with your paper. Edited April 13, 2006 by kyyle23 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Sox Fan For Life Posted April 13, 2006 Author Share Posted April 13, 2006 QUOTE(kyyle23 @ Apr 13, 2006 -> 01:51 PM) I wish you understood, but sadly you dont. Good luck with your paper. Thank you for wishing me good luck on your paper. But I think that we but don't understand each other so I guess I can say sorry for the both of us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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