"Don't tell me how well they hit, but when they hit them&quot

[gosox41]

OK, so I'm paraphrasing Hawk's quote. It's what Hawk says when he wants to show why a lesser hitter is better then a statistically better hitter. And there may be some truth to it, so let's apply this quote to your 2008 Chicago White Sox.

 

Back in April when this team wasn't hitting. I mentioned my usual mantra about this being a one dimensional offense and when one hitter is cold, then everyone, pretty much is cold. But since the Sox were winning, I was quoted Hawks quote by a few posters here. I wish I had the time to see who these people are so I can call them out right now and see what they think now.

 

I will say it's a lot easier to figure out the second pary of Hawk's quote for the 2008 Sox, as they only seem to hit them in bunches and add on a lot when the game is already a blow out.

 

But the bottom line is this team has serious offensive problems. Today's game proves it. We scored 3 whole runs and 2/3 came from a HR. We failed to take advantage of lead off doubles in the 7th and 9th innings and handed the game to the Sox. And it's not just this one game (like I need to say that to anyone who has watched White Sox baseball this year). This lack of simple execution has been a common theme for the Sox pretty much all year (or at least that 1 week the other week and 3 games against Pitt)

 

This is pathetic. I don't know what's worse, the teams inability to execute to win these low scoring close games or the fact that outside of Pods, KW hasn't addressed the need for a more balanced offense. I have never seen a legitimate contending team lose so many games in which htey have given up 3 runs or less. I dont have the stats, but when compared to other contending teams (say 85 wins or more) over the last 10 years, this years Sox have to have lost a higher porportion of 3 runs or less games then the other teams.

 

Or to put it another way, if someone had told you at the beginning of the season that the Sox would have a league best 3.3 ERA 73 games into the season, one would have thought this team would be running away with the division. I mean pitching is key, right? And a 3.3 ERA when you've played about 1/2 your games at the Cell is outstanding. But here we are limping along and not taking advantage of a division that we could easily have been running away with. Sure a 4.5 game lead is nice, but so is getting a B- in Calculus. Why be satisified with mediocrity. I'll take the A and set the curve and let some other poor sap muddle along thankful for not sucking.

 

So how good/bad is this Sox offense. I think it's bad just because it lacks consistency to win day in and day out. It's nice to see the stats padded in 16-5 blow outs, but we seem to consistently lose winnable games.

 

And maybe I'm beating a dead horse. But I'm the same person who called for this team to be broken up since mid-2007. Look it up. Maybe if KW created a balanced line up more then once in the last 8 years, I wouldn't say anything. But being as how we're the same slow, plodding, station to station, power hitting team we were from 2001-2007 (excluding 2005) I feel the need to vent until KW gets it right.

[BobDylan]

OK, so I'm paraphrasing Hawk's quote. It's what Hawk says when he wants to show why a lesser hitter is better then a statistically better hitter. And there may be some truth to it, so let's apply this quote to your 2008 Chicago White Sox.

 

Back in April when this team wasn't hitting. I mentioned my usual mantra about this being a one dimensional offense and when one hitter is cold, then everyone, pretty much is cold. But since the Sox were winning, I was quoted Hawks quote by a few posters here. I wish I had the time to see who these people are so I can call them out right now and see what they think now.

 

I will say it's a lot easier to figure out the second pary of Hawk's quote for the 2008 Sox, as they only seem to hit them in bunches and add on a lot when the game is already a blow out.

 

But the bottom line is this team has serious offensive problems. Today's game proves it. We scored 3 whole runs and 2/3 came from a HR. We failed to take advantage of lead off doubles in the 7th and 9th innings and handed the game to the Sox. And it's not just this one game (like I need to say that to anyone who has watched White Sox baseball this year). This lack of simple execution has been a common theme for the Sox pretty much all year (or at least that 1 week the other week and 3 games against Pitt)

 

This is pathetic. I don't know what's worse, the teams inability to execute to win these low scoring close games or the fact that outside of Pods, KW hasn't addressed the need for a more balanced offense. I have never seen a legitimate contending team lose so many games in which htey have given up 3 runs or less. I dont have the stats, but when compared to other contending teams (say 85 wins or more) over the last 10 years, this years Sox have to have lost a higher porportion of 3 runs or less games then the other teams.

 

Or to put it another way, if someone had told you at the beginning of the season that the Sox would have a league best 3.3 ERA 73 games into the season, one would have thought this team would be running away with the division. I mean pitching is key, right? And a 3.3 ERA when you've played about 1/2 your games at the Cell is outstanding. But here we are limping along and not taking advantage of a division that we could easily have been running away with. Sure a 4.5 game lead is nice, but so is getting a B- in Calculus. Why be satisified with mediocrity. I'll take the A and set the curve and let some other poor sap muddle along thankful for not sucking.

 

So how good/bad is this Sox offense. I think it's bad just because it lacks consistency to win day in and day out. It's nice to see the stats padded in 16-5 blow outs, but we seem to consistently lose winnable games.

 

And maybe I'm beating a dead horse. But I'm the same person who called for this team to be broken up since mid-2007. Look it up. Maybe if KW created a balanced line up more then once in the last 8 years, I wouldn't say anything. But being as how we're the same slow, plodding, station to station, power hitting team we were from 2001-2007 (excluding 2005) I feel the need to vent until KW gets it right.

 

If the Sox started playing situational baseball at the plate, there's no doubt in my mind that they'd run away with the division. I think the offense is plenty balanced with the addition of Swisher, Cabrera and Ramirez, but the amount they strand runners in scoring position is alarming. Those lead off doubles late in the game, not only did they fail to drive him in, they failed to even move him over. If an offense is streaky, so be it. But they have to find a way to support the pitching staff. Danks deserved a W there regardless of what happened to the bullpen. They should've walked out of that game with a 7-4 win. If the Sox hitters don't want to acknowledge this by themselves, then either KW or Ozzie needs to say/do something that will get that point across.

[Whitewashed in '05]

If the Sox started playing situational baseball at the plate, there's no doubt in my mind that they'd run away with the division. I think the offense is plenty balanced with the addition of Swisher, Cabrera and Ramirez, but the amount they strand runners in scoring position is alarming. Those lead off doubles late in the game, not only did they fail to drive him in, they failed to even move him over. If an offense is streaky, so be it. But they have to find a way to support the pitching staff. Danks deserved a W there regardless of what happened to the bullpen. They should've walked out of that game with a 7-4 win. If the Sox hitters don't want to acknowledge this by themselves, then either KW or Ozzie needs to say/do something that will get that point across.

Is team LOB recorded anywhere? I would love to see where we rank in the MLB with runners left on base. That's what makes this offense so frustrating. Our situational hitting is just plain bad.

[greg775]

Guys and gals, we are a home run hitting team.

That's it.

Does anybody agree wtih me on this?

Our offense is about home runs and I guess to a certain extent doubles.

But when we hit doubles Friday they meant nothing.

We don't move runners much; we hit home runs.

Thome and Konerko who on paper hit a lot of home runs are out of the lineup.

So we lose road games and will lose the next 2 unfortunately.

Does anybody agree with me we should not talk about our offense, merely our power?

We have no offense except home runs.

If the ball was live and guys were still on steroids we probably would have run away with the division by now.

[Vance Law]

Is team LOB recorded anywhere? I would love to see where we rank in the MLB with runners left on base. That's what makes this offense so frustrating. Our situational hitting is just plain bad.

 

 

In batting average, the Sox are #5 in the AL with runners on base. #2 with runners in scoring position.

 

 

 

[whitesoxfan101]

Our lineup is getting better in terms of batting average and getting on base, but throughout the year our lineup has generally had at least 3 guys in it everyday hitting below .230. Hard to string together hits and score runs that way when you have a lot of guys not hitting. Combine that with all our power, and that's how we score runs, pretty simple. The problem is, our averages are all going way up and we still can't hit with men on base. At this point, it seems like a mental thing, this team is convinced it's home run or nothing. We're going to get killed on the road if this keeps up though, so somebody better get it going. Another problem could be we just don't have men in scoring position as often as many teams, but I'd need to look that one up before I said it.

Edited June 21, 2008 by whitesoxfan101

[Vance Law]

The problem is, our averages are all going way up and we still can't hit with men on base.

 

Nope. The Sox are #5 in batting average with runners on, and #2 with runners in scoring position.

 

Fans simply immediately forget anything that goes well and dwell on anything that doesn't go well. Start thread after thread after thread to complain about a first place team with the 3rd best offense and the best pitching in the American League.

 

If you're going to post and complain about the team hitting .289 with runners in scoring position because, "that's totally, like, failing 71% of the time," take a moment to note that the major league average is .262 with runners in scoring position.

 

Immediately forget anything that goes well. Dwell on any failure to knock a runner in. Stack up all of those in your head as "evidence." "I've seen the Sox fail to knock in a runner like a hundred times this year! That's got to be a record. Sure, I've seen like 70 Sox games and no more than 8 games of any other team, but that coupled with my refusal to look at the actual numbers doesn't matter. What matters is the irrational cumulative effect of my frustration every time something doesn't go well for my favorite team, and my inability to perceive their performance objectively relative to the other baseball teams."

 

[BobDylan]

Nope. The Sox are #5 in batting average with runners on, and #2 with runners in scoring position.

 

Fans simply immediately forget anything that goes well and dwell on anything that doesn't go well. Start thread after thread after thread to complain about a first place team with the 3rd best offense and the best pitching in the American League.

 

If you're going to post and complain about the team hitting .289 with runners in scoring position because, "that's totally, like, failing 71% of the time," take a moment to note that the major league average is .262 with runners in scoring position.

 

That's a totally misleading stat. The White Sox rank 13/14 in the AL in sacrifice hits with a mere 11. They are 10/14 with 17 sacrifice flies. There is a lot more to hitting with RISP, it is certainly not a batting average stat. The Sox suck with RISP, plan and simple.

[gosox41]

Guys and gals, we are a home run hitting team.

That's it.

Does anybody agree wtih me on this?

Our offense is about home runs and I guess to a certain extent doubles.

But when we hit doubles Friday they meant nothing.

We don't move runners much; we hit home runs.

Thome and Konerko who on paper hit a lot of home runs are out of the lineup.

So we lose road games and will lose the next 2 unfortunately.

Does anybody agree with me we should not talk about our offense, merely our power?

We have no offense except home runs.

If the ball was live and guys were still on steroids we probably would have run away with the division by now.

 

 

What we should be talking about is why KW can't get design a team around a balaned offense. I know how our offense is and it sucks because we can't grind out games like yesterday (or the Tampa Bay series). This needs to be addressed or we're going to be spending a long October watchin the Cubs in the playoffs and complainin about a lack of balanced offense.

 

 

 

[gosox41]

Nope. The Sox are #5 in batting average with runners on, and #2 with runners in scoring position.

 

Fans simply immediately forget anything that goes well and dwell on anything that doesn't go well. Start thread after thread after thread to complain about a first place team with the 3rd best offense and the best pitching in the American League.

 

If you're going to post and complain about the team hitting .289 with runners in scoring position because, "that's totally, like, failing 71% of the time," take a moment to note that the major league average is .262 with runners in scoring position.

 

Immediately forget anything that goes well. Dwell on any failure to knock a runner in. Stack up all of those in your head as "evidence." "I've seen the Sox fail to knock in a runner like a hundred times this year! That's got to be a record. Sure, I've seen like 70 Sox games and no more than 8 games of any other team, but that coupled with my refusal to look at the actual numbers doesn't matter. What matters is the irrational cumulative effect of my frustration every time something doesn't go well for my favorite team, and my inability to perceive their performance objectively relative to the other baseball teams."

 

 

And while we're talking about hitting with RISP, it would be nice if someone can narrow the stat down to how we hit with RISP when we're trailing or have less then a 5 run lead. I'm convinved the .289 average is inflated when we get to face Mr. Garbage Reliver from the Pittsburgh Pirates to make a 10-5 game into a 16-5 game. Those 6 runs are nice and I'm not dumb enough to believe in saving runs for tomorrow like some are. But all those hits and runs in non-clutch situations against a bad teams worst relievers are pretty much meaning less.

 

THere are 2 keys to an offense, it's quite simple, 1. get guys on and 2. get them in. No more no less. We seem to be good at #1 and bad at #2, specifically when playing against good teams.

 

So let's see what are RISP is against the good teams like the Cubs, Tampa Bay, LA Angels, etc and not how he beat on sucky San Diego, KC, and the Pirates to inflate those numbers.

 

 

 

 

[gosox41]

In batting average, the Sox are #5 in the AL with runners on base. #2 with runners in scoring position.

 

 

Today's 8th inning is exactly what I'm talking about. How bad is that?

 

 

 

[Whitewashed in '05]

What we should be talking about is why KW can't get design a team around a balaned offense. I know how our offense is and it sucks because we can't grind out games like yesterday (or the Tampa Bay series). This needs to be addressed or we're going to be spending a long October watchin the Cubs in the playoffs and complainin about a lack of balanced offense.

No 1 our ballpark is built for the home runs so we better be able to hit home runs. Our lineup is made for hitting home runs and that's it. KW has been good at putting together some lineups afforably so in order to get more balance and more than just 1 dimensional guys its going to cost us. The farm or money, we already don't have a farm. We can't trade for CQ's every season. I agree with what you're saying and this is the position were in right now.

[BobDylan]

No 1 our ballpark is built for the home runs so we better be able to hit home runs. Our lineup is made for hitting home runs and that's it. KW has been good at putting together some lineups afforably so in order to get more balance and more than just 1 dimensional guys its going to cost us. The farm or money, we already don't have a farm. We can't trade for CQ's every season. I agree with what you're saying and this is the position were in right now.

 

I don't know that the Sox have an affordable line-up anymore. There is defferred money in there, yeah, but they're around the 100 mil mark. Also, I don't think when he says a balanced line-up he means 9 Carlos Beltran's. I think he's talking about hitters that can play situational baseball to support the middle order guys that they can afford. Like a Kevin Youkilis, or one they already have but is struggling, Nick Swisher.

Edited June 21, 2008 by BobDylan

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

I don't know that the Sox have an affordable line-up anymore. There is defferred money in there, yeah, but they're around the 100 mil mark. Also, I don't think when he says a balanced line-up he means 9 Carlos Beltran's. I think he's talking about hitters that can play situational baseball to support the middle order guys that they can afford. Like a Kevin Youkilis, or one they already have but is struggling, Nick Swisher.

I think there's a good chance Thome is gone after this year, so that's something like $12 million off the books. And let's say the Sox can work out an extension for Crede, or can sign him on the market. If he gets a raise around $7-8 million or so, then the Sox could bring up Fields to DH, or they could try experiments at 1B or LF (I still think Josh can learn LF if the Sox commit to it and are patient enough with him). This opens the door to a possible Konerko/Dye deal, which would cut some more money off the books. Contreras is probably gone after this year if he can put up an ERA under 5.00, so that's another $10 million off the books. I think Cabrera is getting something like $9 million and he'll walk, with Alexei sliding over to SS and Richar/Getz probably taking over at first. Subtract $4.5 million for Uribe and that's more money coming off the payroll. Toby's option should be picked up but Ozuna could be gone, so that's another $1 million gone if that happens.

 

A team of...

 

C Pierzynski

1B Swisher

2B Richar/Getz

3B Crede

DH Fields

LF Dye

CF Anderson

RF Quentin

 

Vazquez-Buehrle-Floyd-Danks-Broadway

 

Jenks-Linebrink-Thornton-Dotel-Logan-Masset-Russel

 

Hall-Richar/Getz-league minimum back up CF-league minimum back up SS

 

...is not all that expensive. There's enough left over money to go after a couple big name players on the FA market or take on salary in a trade.

 

*Edit: Also, the $100 million dollar mark doesn't mean a whole lot these days with all the inflation. The Sox should be prepared to spend $110 million plus if they want to seriously contend.

Edited June 21, 2008 by Kenny Hates Prospects

[BobDylan]

I think there's a good chance Thome is gone after this year, so that's something like $12 million off the books. And let's say the Sox can work out an extension for Crede, or can sign him on the market. If he gets a raise around $7-8 million or so, then the Sox could bring up Fields to DH, or they could try experiments at 1B or LF (I still think Josh can learn LF if the Sox commit to it and are patient enough with him). This opens the door to a possible Konerko/Dye deal, which would cut some more money off the books. Contreras is probably gone after this year if he can put up an ERA under 5.00, so that's another $10 million off the books. I think Cabrera is getting something like $9 million and he'll walk, with Alexei sliding over to SS and Richar/Getz probably taking over at first. Subtract $4.5 million for Uribe and that's more money coming off the payroll. Toby's option should be picked up but Ozuna could be gone, so that's another $1 million gone if that happens.

 

A team of...

 

C Pierzynski

1B Swisher

2B Richar/Getz

3B Crede

DH Fields

LF Dye

CF Anderson

RF Quentin

 

Vazquez-Buehrle-Floyd-Danks-Broadway

 

Jenks-Linebrink-Thornton-Dotel-Logan-Masset-Russel

 

Hall-Richar/Getz-league minimum back up CF-league minimum back up SS

 

...is not all that expensive. There's enough left over money to go after a couple big name players on the FA market or take on salary in a trade.

 

*Edit: Also, the $100 million dollar mark doesn't mean a whole lot these days with all the inflation. The Sox should be prepared to spend $110 million plus if they want to seriously contend.

 

Well, out of the "big three" in the order, Thome is the only one the Sox can control coming back next year. To do that, they'll have to limit his AB's. Konerko has a full no trade clause now with his 10 and 5 rights. Dye has a full NTC this season as well as the option to decline a trade to 6 teams next year. I wouldn't want to resign Crede, personally, because I don't think he's a very good hitter. As well, Scott Boras won't let us resign him. They'll save very little by losing Crede. And won't save at all because Konerko will still be here.

 

Fields at 3B is fine with me. Alexei is likely the SS next year. Richar the 2B... agree on those two. Konerko will be at 1B next year. The outfield will probably be Quentin LF/Swisher CF/Dye RF. AJ remains the catcher.

 

The line-up Kenny is looking at next year is more along the lines of this (not in order):

 

1B - Konerko

2B- Richar/Getz/Alexei/Upgrade via trade or FA

SS - Alexei/very limited possibility of Uribe/Upgrade via trade or FA

3B - Fields

LF - Quentin

CF - Swisher

RF - Dye

C - AJ

DH - Thome/???

 

There really isn't a lot of room to make changes given the way Kenny did the contracts with Dye and Konerko. Maybe next year they can DH Dye or Konerko, but that still really only leaves the same two gaps there are on the map today: CF and 2B.

Edited June 21, 2008 by BobDylan

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

There really isn't a lot of room to make changes given the way Kenny did the contracts with Dye and Konerko. Maybe next year they can DH Dye or Konerko, but that still really only leaves the same two gaps there are on the map today: CF and 2B.

Thome isn't going to get enough AB's this year for the option to kick in. Sooner or later he'll be on the DL again, plus the interleague play cuts those AB's down a ton.

 

Even with CF and 2B open, it is very reasonable IMO to see the Sox making some huge moves there.

 

If Crede signs elsewhere the long-rumored favorite has been LAA. If they pick him up at third that means Figgins will likely be on the block. Roberts will be on the block also, but he'll be cheaper than he is now (if he doesn't get moved before the deadline this year) because he'll only have one season left. Orlando Hudson is a FA, as is Mark Ellis, both great options as #2 hitters and both superb defensive 2B's capable of playing the fundamental game.

 

Then as for CF you've got Willy Taveras who should be available for less than before. He could be a steal. Then if the Angels pick up a 3B, Figgins is a CF option. If not, Willits is a CF option who should be open for a trade. Randy Winn has been producing for a while and with his contract would be a cheap, productive pick up (in terms of talent). Those are all leadoff/#2 hitters.

 

So let's say you end up with at least one of Thome/Dye/Konerko gone, which is highly likely IMO. If you pick up any combination of the players above, as 2B's and CF's, you immediately change the dynamic of the team at the top of the order, and as a result it shifts AJ, who as a contact hitter, back to the middle of the lineup to break up the usually all-or-nothing sluggers. It also moves Alexei down to #9 and gives us that speed/contact guy that can act as a 2nd leadoff hitter which managers love.

Edited June 21, 2008 by Kenny Hates Prospects

[BobDylan]

Thome isn't going to get enough AB's this year for the option to kick in. Sooner or later he'll be on the DL again, plus the interleague play cuts those AB's down a ton.

 

Even with CF and 2B open, it is very reasonable IMO to see the Sox making some huge moves there.

 

If Crede signs elsewhere the long-rumored favorite has been LAA. If they pick him up at third that means Figgins will likely be on the block. Roberts will be on the block also, but he'll be cheaper than he is now (if he doesn't get moved before the deadline this year) because he'll only have one season left. Orlando Hudson is a FA, as is Mark Ellis, both great options as #2 hitters and both superb defensive 2B's capable of playing the fundamental game.

 

Then as for CF you've got Willy Taveras who should be available for less than before. He could be a steal. Then if the Angels pick up a 3B, Figgins is a CF option. If not, Willits is a CF option who should be open for a trade. Randy Winn has been producing for a while and with his contract would be a cheap, productive pick up (in terms of talent). Those are all leadoff/#2 hitters.

 

So let's say you end up with at least one of Thome/Dye/Konerko gone, which is highly likely IMO. If you pick up any combination of the players above, as 2B's and CF's, you immediately change the dynamic of the team at the top of the order, and as a result it shifts AJ, who as a contact hitter, back to the middle of the lineup to break up the usually all-or-nothing sluggers. It also moves Alexei down to #9 and gives us that speed/contact guy that can act as a 2nd leadoff hitter which managers love.

 

Willy Tavares isn't an upgrade over what they already have in Jerry Owens. No use trading for him, I'd say. If the Angels got Crede, it won't be in a trade unless the White Sox give them a window to resign him. That said, Crede won't be enough to get Figgins. And even if the Angels do fill 3B, I'm sure they'll consider the option of moving Figgins to 2B before outright giving the job to Kendrick/Aybar. Plus, who are the Sox going to offer? Broadway? Russel? Haeger? Owens? Anderson? Their minor league system is a can of soup with no chicken. And KW will hang up the phone if they mention any of Danks, Floyd or Quentin.

 

As far as Figgins being a CF option, he's not. He's barely a LF option. He's also barely average for 3B. He's got a noodle arm, to boot.

 

I understand that filling CF and/or 2B with the proper player changes the dynamic of the offense. But Chone Figgins is a pipe dream. Brian Roberts probably is too.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

Willy Tavares isn't an upgrade over what they already have in Jerry Owens. No use trading for him, I'd say. If the Angels got Crede, it won't be in a trade unless the White Sox give them a window to resign him. That said, Crede won't be enough to get Figgins. And even if the Angels do fill 3B, I'm sure they'll consider the option of moving Figgins to 2B before outright giving the job to Kendrick/Aybar. Plus, who are the Sox going to offer? Broadway? Russel? Haeger? Owens? Anderson? Their minor league system is a can of soup with no chicken. And KW will hang up the phone if they mention any of Danks, Floyd or Quentin.

 

As far as Figgins being a CF option, he's not. He's barely a LF option. He's also barely average for 3B. He's got a noodle arm, to boot.

 

I understand that filling CF and/or 2B with the proper player changes the dynamic of the offense. But Chone Figgins is a pipe dream. Brian Roberts probably is too.

Taveras is a monumental improvement over Jerry Owens. Willy is a fantastic CF. He's got the range, the make-up speed, he gets good reads, he's got an arm, he has proven himself at the MLB level, he has better instincts on the basepaths, and he has more power, even if it's not HR power. For his salary and coming off a down year, I'd love to have him. He shouldn't cost much if he's available, and the 2005-2007 Willy Taveras would be a great addition to the team.

 

I'm not talking about Figgins this year. He won't be available this year, so a trade with Crede would be out of the question. There's no way the Angels bench Howie Kendrick in favor of Figgins, and there's no way they play him at SS. The only possibility I'd see is if they went with Figgins in CF or as a rotating DH once Garrett Anderson leaves, but then that opens the window for Reggie Willits. I just think the Angels, if they add a bat, are going to make a decision between Figgins and Willits as everyday players, because both players are capable of that. I think they'd be willing to move Chone because he's going to make serious bank on the FA market, and also because there's not much of a chance they get a team to take on GMJ's contract to open another spot.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

Taveras leads off for the Rockies, is batting .248 with a .303 OBP. He is hurting his team more than he is helping.

Check his track record. It's not uncommon for good players to have bad years. We've got a few on our team this year. Does anyone think that Eric Hinske is a better player than Nick Swisher? Taveras is a better player than Anderson, Owens, or any CF in our minor league system so far.

 

Also, I just checked and Willy is hitting .324 over his last ten games. He'll be back on track soon enough. While his OBP is never going to astound you, he's capable of getting on as much as Pods did for us in 2005 or as much as Cabrera, our current lead-off hitter, gets on. If you can find a better lead-off option then that's great, he could be a nice #2 hitter instead. Either way he's an improvement over Anderson, who I like btw, in CF for now and likely an improvement in the future. And he's worlds better than Owens.

 

[gosox41]

I don't know that the Sox have an affordable line-up anymore. There is defferred money in there, yeah, but they're around the 100 mil mark. Also, I don't think when he says a balanced line-up he means 9 Carlos Beltran's. I think he's talking about hitters that can play situational baseball to support the middle order guys that they can afford. Like a Kevin Youkilis, or one they already have but is struggling, Nick Swisher.

 

 

I'm talking about having at least one stolen base threat who is capable of stealing 50 bases and screws up defenses.

 

I would also like one or 2 other guys who are capable of 15-20 steals just to keep the other team on their toes and not be so predictable.

 

The non power hitting players should be able to lay down a bunt and situational hit. If you're capable of hitting 30 + home runs I can see the need not too bunt. But anything less and I'd expect the player to make his game more well rounded.

 

Having 6 guys in the line up right now who all done one thing well--hit for power is annoying. They can't rum (maybe Swisher a little) they tend to strke out a lot, and when they're all streaky. When a speedster has a slump, it's a much shorter slump. As individuals they're capable of putting up impessive stats, but when push comes to shove in close games against top relivers they're less likely to get the job done.

 

 

[gosox41]

I think there's a good chance Thome is gone after this year, so that's something like $12 million off the books. And let's say the Sox can work out an extension for Crede, or can sign him on the market. If he gets a raise around $7-8 million or so, then the Sox could bring up Fields to DH, or they could try experiments at 1B or LF (I still think Josh can learn LF if the Sox commit to it and are patient enough with him). This opens the door to a possible Konerko/Dye deal, which would cut some more money off the books. Contreras is probably gone after this year if he can put up an ERA under 5.00, so that's another $10 million off the books. I think Cabrera is getting something like $9 million and he'll walk, with Alexei sliding over to SS and Richar/Getz probably taking over at first. Subtract $4.5 million for Uribe and that's more money coming off the payroll. Toby's option should be picked up but Ozuna could be gone, so that's another $1 million gone if that happens.

 

A team of...

 

C Pierzynski

1B Swisher

2B Richar/Getz

3B Crede

DH Fields

LF Dye

CF Anderson

RF Quentin

 

Vazquez-Buehrle-Floyd-Danks-Broadway

 

Jenks-Linebrink-Thornton-Dotel-Logan-Masset-Russel

 

Hall-Richar/Getz-league minimum back up CF-league minimum back up SS

 

...is not all that expensive. There's enough left over money to go after a couple big name players on the FA market or take on salary in a trade.

 

*Edit: Also, the $100 million dollar mark doesn't mean a whole lot these days with all the inflation. The Sox should be prepared to spend $110 million plus if they want to seriously contend.

 

Realistically, the Sox can have $25 million coming off their $117 mill pay roll next year:

 

Thome $8mill (What the Sox pay him, the Phils pay $4mikk)

Cabrera-$9mill

Crede-$4.5mill (I hate to lose him)

Uribe-$4.5 mill

 

If this team can be contenders in Sept, the attendence will be there and they're won't be a need to cut payroll. There is room to maneuever.

 

Are there any FA's out there that are legit lead off hitters?

 

 

[BobDylan]

Check his track record. It's not uncommon for good players to have bad years. We've got a few on our team this year. Does anyone think that Eric Hinske is a better player than Nick Swisher? Taveras is a better player than Anderson, Owens, or any CF in our minor league system so far.

 

Also, I just checked and Willy is hitting .324 over his last ten games. He'll be back on track soon enough. While his OBP is never going to astound you, he's capable of getting on as much as Pods did for us in 2005 or as much as Cabrera, our current lead-off hitter, gets on. If you can find a better lead-off option then that's great, he could be a nice #2 hitter instead. Either way he's an improvement over Anderson, who I like btw, in CF for now and likely an improvement in the future. And he's worlds better than Owens.

 

I just took a look at his numbers and he's not as bad as I thought. But how cheaply are we talking? And what suggests he's available if he's still in his arbitration years? I would not mind adding this player.

 

But it puts the Sox in a pinch unless they want to do a rotating DH to keep players active at the plate. Because adding a CF cuts Swisher out of the loop.

 

I still would love to add Ellis or Grudz at 2B too. Cut ties with Pablo, bring up Owens and suddenly they've got a line-up built around speed and contact.

[Vance Law]

There is a lot more to hitting with RISP, it is certainly not a batting average stat.

 

Actually, there is no time when battting average is a more important stat than with RISP. Overall OPS, OBP, and SLG are most important. With runners in scoring position (when a single drives a man in from third and usually second) is the one time when when batting average increases in importance.

 

[WCSox]

Taveras is a monumental improvement over Jerry Owens. Willy is a fantastic CF. He's got the range, the make-up speed, he gets good reads, he's got an arm, he has proven himself at the MLB level, he has better instincts on the basepaths, and he has more power, even if it's not HR power.

 

Taveras is a good CF, but Anderson is better.

 

Check his track record. It's not uncommon for good players to have bad years. We've got a few on our team this year. Does anyone think that Eric Hinske is a better player than Nick Swisher? Taveras is a better player than Anderson, Owens, or any CF in our minor league system so far.

 

Taveras and Owens have very similar career numbers.

 

Also, I just checked and Willy is hitting .324 over his last ten games. He'll be back on track soon enough. While his OBP is never going to astound you, he's capable of getting on as much as Pods did for us in 2005 or as much as Cabrera, our current lead-off hitter, gets on.

 

Pods had a .351 OBP in '05. Taveras has a career .334 OBP. Owens has a career .324 OBP and stole 32 bases in just 356 ABs last year. Taveras is a decent player, but not worth trading for when we have a carbon-copy of him in the minors.

 

The Sox are better off keeping Owens in the minors this year. Neither he nor Taveras get on base enough to qualify as a true leadoff hitter.

 

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

Taveras is a good CF, but Anderson is better.

 

Anderson is a better CF, but he's not a better hitter.

 

Taveras and Owens have very similar career numbers.

 

Owens, save for the 2nd half of '07, spent his career in the minor leagues. Taveras has not. You can't compare MLB career numbers to minor league career numbers. If that's the case we should be comparing Joe Borchard and Brad Eldred to Jim Thome.

 

Pods had a .351 OBP in '05. Taveras has a career .334 OBP. Owens has a career .324 OBP and stole 32 bases in just 356 ABs last year. Taveras is a decent player, but not worth trading for when we have a carbon-copy of him in the minors.

 

Nice cherry-picking. Pods had a .351 OBP in '05 as a veteran. 2005 was Taveras' rookie year. He got on at a .367 clip last year. Taveras has a career OBP of .334, compared to Podsednik's career OBP of .337.

 

Owens has nothing on Taveras and he's not a carbon copy player. Owens sucks. Taveras does not suck.

 

The Sox are better off keeping Owens in the minors this year. Neither he nor Taveras get on base enough to qualify as a true leadoff hitter.

I agree on Owens. As far as Taveras, well that's your opinion but I don't know what you expect our GM to do. I don't think Jose Reyes or Ichiro are available.

 

Our last few lead-off guys:

 

2008 Orlando Cabrera, .321 career OBP

2008 Nick Swisher, .359 career OBP

2007 Jerry Owens, .324 career OBP

2007 Erstad, .339 career OBP

2005-2007 Scott Podsednik, .337 career OBP

2004 Juan Uribe, .271 career OBP

2004 Aaron Rowand, .345 career OBP

2003-2004 Willie Harris, .316 career OBP

2003-2004 Roberto Alomar, .371 career OBP

2003 D'Angelo Jimenez, .351 career OBP

 

So Roberto Alomar, D'Angelo Jimenez, and Nick Swisher have been the only guys over the last 5 years to feature as lead-off men and have career OBP's better than .350. Swisher is not a prototypical lead-off guy and is best suited in an RBI spot, D'Angelo wasn't exactly a wizard in the field which was why he was traded, and Robbie Alomar was at the tail end of his career.

 

Finding a guy that can consistently get on at a .350 clip with plus speed and contact who can also hold his own in the field is pretty hard.