Which is of course why the House is so determined to cut renewable energy investments at the Federal level. After all, it's clearly wasteful spending.

 

This is a damned if you do, damned if you don't equation which makes having a discussion about it very hard, if not impossible due to the sheer number of factors that can be involved.

 

Unfortunately, while these types of endeavors are very expensive, and often fizzle out, it's of my opinion that they're also necessary. When they don't fizzle out, you get things like DarapNET > ArpaNET > InterNET, and I don't see anyone complaining about that little invention. But that said, when they do fizzle out, you lose hundreds of billions of dollars with no explanation.

 

IMO, the biggest problem today comes from the mass corruption, from both sides of the aisle, and the sheer cost these projects seem to run now. It's not even inflation adjusted money we're talking about in many regards, it's just out of the realm of sanity in blown up costs, such as loaning hundreds of millions on a single project that lasts mere months, with almost no accountability.

 

When it works, and we invent something great, nobody cares how much it cost...and they shouldn't so long as it's something tangible and real, such as the Internet. But I'd love to see some line items and complete expense reports to see where this lost money went on the failed endeavors that resulted in less than nothing, but let's be real...they'll never show such a thing publicly, and if they do, it won't be for decades when it no longer matters and people have little recollection of the project in question.

And I'm just imagining the people who take a possibly questionable but aggressive loan program (that was so awful the Bush Administration tried to approve it on January 19, 2009) and generalize to the idea that there is substantial crony capitalism in the green energy markets (not like those perfectly honorable fossil fuel markets).

And I'm just imagining the people who take a possibly questionable but aggressive loan program (that was so awful the Bush Administration tried to approve it on January 19, 2009) and generalize to the idea that there is substantial crony capitalism in the green energy markets (not like those perfectly honorable fossil fuel markets).

 

I dismiss this sort of thing as partisan bickering...I'm sure there is some sort of crony capitalism going on in the green energy markets, but when did we start pretending that this is some sort of new idea? It's been going on for decades, in practically ANY market you can name.

 

This goes from the highest levels of government down the lowest, such as alderman taking funds and loaning them to friends/family, with no accountability. Sure, some get caught and used as scapegoats, but many don't.

 

This is a damned if you do, damned if you don't equation which makes having a discussion about it very hard, if not impossible due to the sheer number of factors that can be involved.

 

Unfortunately, while these types of endeavors are very expensive, and often fizzle out, it's of my opinion that they're also necessary. When they don't fizzle out, you get things like DarapNET > ArpaNET > InterNET, and I don't see anyone complaining about that little invention. But that said, when they do fizzle out, you lose hundreds of billions of dollars with no explanation.

 

IMO, the biggest problem today comes from the mass corruption, from both sides of the aisle, and the sheer cost these projects seem to run now. It's not even inflation adjusted money we're talking about in many regards, it's just out of the realm of sanity in blown up costs, such as loaning hundreds of millions on a single project that lasts mere months, with almost no accountability.

 

When it works, and we invent something great, nobody cares how much it cost...and they shouldn't so long as it's something tangible and real, such as the Internet. But I'd love to see some line items and complete expense reports to see where this lost money went on the failed endeavors that resulted in less than nothing, but let's be real...they'll never show such a thing publicly, and if they do, it won't be for decades when it no longer matters and people have little recollection of the project in question.

Let's make a key point here...no one has lost "Hundreds of billions of dollars" on any greentech investment. The Solyndra "corrupt loan" (which, at least based on my reading, was a reasonable investment at the time, although it seems like Dec of last year was the time to cut and run from that one) was $500 million. That is, for example, a factor of 18 less than the amount of money that the Inspector General said utterly vanished in Iraq.

when did we start pretending that this is some sort of new idea?

When we had a good example done by the Democrats.

Let's make a key point here...no one has lost "Hundreds of billions of dollars" on any greentech investment. The Solyndra "corrupt loan" (which, at least based on my reading, was a reasonable investment at the time, although it seems like Dec of last year was the time to cut and run from that one) was $500 million. That is, for example, a factor of 18 less than the amount of money that the Inspector General said utterly vanished in Iraq.

 

I didn't mean to equate what I said only to the Solyndra case, I meant as an aggregate cost of all the failed programs, whether they be green energy or anything else, such as what you mentioned, the money that vanished in Iraq.

 

We didn't lose hundreds of billions on Solyndra, no, but we have lost hundreds of billions over the past decade from various endeavors with nothing to show for it. Solyndra is just scratching the surface of this sort of thing.

From 1993-2008, the top 1% captured 52% of all income growth in the US.

 

http://elsa.berkeley.edu/~saez/TabFig2008.xls

Tom Geoghegan (former House Candidate, labor lawyer) has a long piece in the Nation with a different take on the economic problems. Can't excerpt the whole thing it's 3 pages but it's a good read.

Unprovoked police brutality at the #occupywallstreet protests

 

http://www.uslaw.com/occupywallstreet

 

http://youtu.be/meT8CJgEBQw

whoops, meant to add:

 

does anyone know what this "we are the 99%" thing is?

 

Edited October 2, 201114 yr by StrangeSox

whoops, meant to add:

 

does anyone know what this "we are the 99%" thing is?

 

That's the protest's slogan/tag, if you will.

The Occupy Wall Street protests that started in New York and have now spread to cities including Chicago, Boston and San Francisco (and coming soon to Texas), with more adopting “We are the 99%” as their unifying slogan. In a time of rising unemployment and falling living standards, what are the numbers behind this slogan?

 

-The top 1 percent take home 24 percent of the national income.

 

- Nearly one in six people are in poverty in the U.S.

 

- As The American Independent reports, there were a record number of women in poverty in 2010.

 

- Since the recession began, the unemployment rate for young people has climbed as high as 52.2 percent.

 

- In the African-American community, the unemployment rate is the highest it has been in 27 years, at 16 percent.

 

- According to a report by The Washington Independent, the unemployed commit suicide at two or three times the average, and the rate goes up the longer they have been unemployed

 

- Defaults on student loans, especially at for-profit universities, have risen substantially. Fifteen percent of borrowers at for-profit colleges defaulted in the first two years of repayment, while 8.8 percent of borrowers over all defaulted in the fiscal year ending Sept. 30.

Obama is very angry you are protesting his preferred entitlement class of bailed out wall street guys.

Obama is very angry you are protesting his preferred entitlement class of bailed out wall street guys.

As is whoever you'll vote for next year.

As is whoever you'll vote for next year.

 

balta, weren't you just posting in another thread about how stupid it is to refute with "well the other party does it too"

balta, weren't you just posting in another thread about how stupid it is to refute with "well the other party does it too"

In this case, it's the absolute truth. Doesn't matter whether its good or bad for the country, if it's good for a handful of people on wall street, it'll happen.

anyways i hope there is a big protest outside the Chicago board of trade. i would go.

anyways i hope there is a big protest outside the Chicago board of trade. i would go.

I believe there was a small one earlier this week that 2k5 had the pleasure of scoffing at and drinking champagne in front of.

I believe there was a small one earlier this week that 2k5 had the pleasure of scoffing at and drinking champagne in front of.

 

well that certainly won't do. we need a better protest than that.

well that certainly won't do. we need a better protest than that.

I'm personally a fan of how the NYPD had called in the buses yesterday to prepare for arrests hours before the first arrests actually happened.

I'm personally a fan of how the NYPD had called in the buses yesterday to prepare for arrests hours before the first arrests actually happened.

 

Bloomberg probably set that up. he's a douche.

Edited October 2, 201114 yr by mr_genius

anyways i hope there is a big protest outside the Chicago board of trade. i would go.

If you're really interested, here's what I believe is the "Official" website/blog of the protests in Chicago.

If you're really interested, here's what I believe is the "Official" website/blog of the protests in Chicago.

 

good. i will be there.

good. i will be there.

 

 

I'm going to be in DC this weekend. Might stop by to see what's going on there, they kick off on Thursday.

anyways i hope there is a big protest outside the Chicago board of trade. i would go.

 

Its not big by any stretch of the imagination. Though I did get a laugh at the kids going to a 30k a year university chanting about "we don't have to live this way".

Its not big by any stretch of the imagination. Though I did get a laugh at the kids going to a 30k a year university chanting about "we don't have to live this way".

And thankfully, the government is as lenient with student loan defaults as they are with credit default swap contracts which default. Therefore, this criticism is entirely valid.