sox payroll hike in conjunction with cubs "rebuild"?

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

I can say from experience that there are quite a few people out there who purport to cheer for "any Chicago team", and given the choice between a competitive team and non-competitive team, will choose the competitive one. While I agree that the relationship is adversarial amongst much of the fanbase, there are the ever-elusive few who can go either way and whose money is still green. I think there's got to be some competition for their dollar sign, albeit less than in Los Angeles. Why wouldn't you try to get their support if you could?

Do these people buy tickets though? Because that's all that matters. There are tons of these people at sporting events, and they definitely add up in attendance at the end of the year, but are they there because they really want to spend somewhere between $80 to upwards of a $1000 to see a game where they really don't care who wins, OR are they there because their friends/relatives/co-workers/company got them tickets and they felt it would be fun to go? I mean how many of these "any Chicago team" people actually initiate the ballpark experience? I can't think there would be enough of them to justify running Sox Pride TV spots at 2pm on TLC.

[Texsox]

Casual fans don't tailgate.

 

Casual fans who decide to see a professional baseball game will have reasons like location of the stadium, the day and time of the game, promotions, and of course if there is buzz about one team.

 

Some people actually do have family budgets and like any budgeting, small items and big items will occupy the same budget category. So yeah, movies are mixed in with ball games and trips to Six Flags.

[ScottyDo]

Do these people buy tickets though? Because that's all that matters. There are tons of these people at sporting events, and they definitely add up in attendance at the end of the year, but are they there because they really want to spend somewhere between $80 to upwards of a $1000 to see a game where they really don't care who wins, OR are they there because their friends/relatives/co-workers/company got them tickets and they felt it would be fun to go? I mean how many of these "any Chicago team" people actually initiate the ballpark experience? I can't think there would be enough of them to justify running Sox Pride TV spots at 2pm on TLC.

Some of them want to go to ballgames of their own accord because they enjoy the experience and want to root for a Chicago team, yes. Even people who claim to "hate baseball" enjoy going to baseball games much of the time, since they get to drink a little and casually watch some stuff happen in front of them. Even though that would seem to make their decision between the Sox and Cubs arbitrary, most of these people would rather attend a W than a L. The money's there.

 

FWIW, growing up, my parents fell under the category of people who didn't give 2 craps about baseball but took me to games because I did. We ended up going to Toledo Mudhens games, rather than Tigers games, because the tickets were cheaper. We were pretty much equidistant between the two (Ann Arbor). They could have been swayed one way or another, though, by pretty much any passing wind. The appropriate buzz (e.g. a playoff race) could have provided that impetus.

 

PS Thank god they didn't take me to Tigers games or I might be a Tigers fan....ugh.

 

EDIT: I'm entirely aware that my anecdote is not a good analogy for Cubs/Sox for a lot of reasons. Just saying.

Edited January 31, 2011 by ScottyDo

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

Casual fans don't tailgate.

 

Casual fans who decide to see a professional baseball game will have reasons like location of the stadium, the day and time of the game, promotions, and of course if there is buzz about one team.

 

Some people actually do have family budgets and like any budgeting, small items and big items will occupy the same budget category. So yeah, movies are mixed in with ball games and trips to Six Flags.

We'll have to disagree on a couple of these things then. I'm a casual Brewers fan and I see other casual Brewers fans tailgating all the time. Usually anytime we go, the tailgating is the part the casual and non-fans enjoy the most, because you get to hang out, eat good food, drink a few beers, just have conversation, toss the ball around, etc. It's really fun, and people are free to get up and walk around as they please without coming off as rude or disinterested in the game. There have been many times I've taken co-workers and friends who don't even know anything about baseball and they've loved it simply because of the tailgate party. If you think about what the ideal summer means to most people, it's basically the atmosphere of a tailgate party plus a beach.

 

I agree on the second part but without the use of the term "casual fan" since I think most sports fans both 1) clearly identify with at least one favorite team, and 2) do not follow that team close enough to know a ton about it, and therefore are casual fans. People who watch Bulls games in the fourth quarter a couple times per week are casual fans, as are people who flip between whatever else they're watching and the Sox games here and there and only watch most games when they're playing a team like the Twins or Yankees or something. The people you're describing sound like non-fans, and if they don't follow a team and have real reason to go, they're nothing more than windfall, because you probably can't reach them anyway. I mean if they listen to sports radio and still don't care about baseball, or whether all they watch is the Food Network, no matter what the case, how do you reach them?

 

The budget part I can see in theory. But the cost between a night at the movies is substantially less than the cost of a game, and for most people there's a theater pretty close. OTOH getting to the Cell or Wrigley, and then parking, and fighting traffic to and from, and stopping for gas and eating on the way there and maybe on the way back as well, plus eating at the park, plus beverages, etc. it really adds up for most people with a family. I imagine most families can make room for a movie night, or at least just give the kids some money and drop them off at the movies - even the dollar theater - with the kids sneaking in some cheap candy from the grocery store, but the ballpark is another matter entirely that has to be projected. And maybe there are families that operate on such a strict budget that they have to cut out X number of movie nights to save up enough to make it to a game, that add up and account for all their entertainment spending, but I can't imagine there are many of them. Frugality doesn't seem to lead to hardship as often as frivolous impulse spending does, and baseball games for most people with families are not an impulsive kind of thing since there are multiple schedules to account for as well as a lot more money needed up front, plus there's the matter of projecting out whether the funds to cover potentially gas, parking, and concessions will be there at a later date.

 

Some of them want to go to ballgames of their own accord because they enjoy the experience and want to root for a Chicago team, yes. Even people who claim to "hate baseball" enjoy going to baseball games much of the time, since they get to drink a little and casually watch some stuff happen in front of them. Even though that would seem to make their decision between the Sox and Cubs arbitrary, most of these people would rather attend a W than a L. The money's there.

 

FWIW, growing up, my parents fell under the category of people who didn't give 2 craps about baseball but took me to games because I did. We ended up going to Toledo Mudhens games, rather than Tigers games, because the tickets were cheaper. We were pretty much equidistant between the two (Ann Arbor). They could have been swayed one way or another, though, by pretty much any passing wind. The appropriate buzz (e.g. a playoff race) could have provided that impetus.

 

PS Thank god they didn't take me to Tigers games or I might be a Tigers fan....ugh.

 

EDIT: I'm entirely aware that my anecdote is not a good analogy for Cubs/Sox for a lot of reasons. Just saying.

I agree that there are those people, and that they go for the fun of it, but I think their impact is far overstated. Yes, some of them will inevitably buy tickets themselves, but I don't think it happens enough to really matter much. I think most of the time they're either there because someone gave them tickets or sold them tickets cheaply, or because someone else who is a fan - even just a casual fan - decided to go, and they want to go as a result. Or, as in your case, someone who can not afford/is not in position to purchase tickets (a child, for instance) wants to go, and so they go. And in your case, had you been older/aware enough to pick a specific team, just you being there probably would have cut the baseball options down to just one team, don't you think? I mean, the Mudhens are cheaper, but if you really, really wanted to see the Tigers then I imagine your parents would have probably done what they could to get you to a Tigers game regardless. And I guess the gist of what I'm arguing is that most people are going to have the decision to see a game either tied down to one specific team, or else tied to another person with one specific team in mind.

 

I will say that these "any team" fans probably exist all over the place in Florida, but I just can't see that being the case here. I do know that there are those people who follow and are legitimate fans of both the Sox and Cubs, and under those circumstances they may pick which team to see based on performance that year (or some other criteria), but I don't believe there are enough of them to justify calling the Cubs competition. I think, as I've said before, that the Cubs actually help the Sox draw, and they encourage Sox fans to show more pride in their team, and whatever those benefits are, if they all could be tallied, they would far outweigh any losses resulting from the "any Chicago team" fans having to make a decision between the two. If that makes any sense.

[Texsox]

Perhaps we have a different definition of a casual fan. Maybe it's a Brewers thing, but I struggle to comprehend someone saying I want to grill in a parking lot, hang out, throw a ball around, *and* spend $100 in tickets and stuff for a baseball game? Or I'm only going to one game a year, I'll figure out all the tailgating ins and outs for that one game. They will understand which parking lot, what to do with the charcoal afterwards, etc etc? For one game a year?

 

The budget thing comes from do I want to spend $150 on a baseball game this month or two movies, a nicer dinner out, and a concert?

[Rowand44]

Casual fans tailgate all the time.

[Texsox]

Casual fans tailgate all the time.

 

Really? So the guy that goes to one game a year drags his grill and everything? I find that so interesting. It always seemed to me the tailgaters were loaded down with so much extra stuff that I assumed they did it more than one or two times a year. I guess I learned my new fact for the day.

[Balta1701]

Really? So the guy that goes to one game a year drags his grill and everything? I find that so interesting. It always seemed to me the tailgaters were loaded down with so much extra stuff that I assumed they did it more than one or two times a year. I guess I learned my new fact for the day.

I know a bunch of people who tailgated for the Rose Bowl and didn't go to the game. I'm sure if I walked around here during a home game, I'd see the same thing.

[NorthSideSox72]

If the question is, will adult fans switch allegiance from the Cubs to the Sox, the answer is no. Just won't happen to any significant extent no matter how good or bad either team are.

 

But... the Sox being better than the Cubs for a while, and the stadium going in opposite directions, will most certainly help the Sox draw more fans that might otherwise go to the Cubs. So they are competitors. Its just that they are competing in a couple specific areas:

 

--People who are not die hard fans of either team, will flock more often to the team winning more and with a better stadium experience

--Kids choose teams to follow, and getting more kids as fans will help attendence in the long run

 

These are definite factors. And the Sox have done a much better job than the Cubs not only at winning, but at making the stadium a better experience for both adults and kids over the past decade or so.

 

So yes, they are competitors, in a few specific areas.

 

[Texsox]

I know a bunch of people who tailgated for the Rose Bowl and didn't go to the game. I'm sure if I walked around here during a home game, I'd see the same thing.

 

So they are casual football fans and were looking for a place to have a cook out?

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

Really? So the guy that goes to one game a year drags his grill and everything? I find that so interesting. It always seemed to me the tailgaters were loaded down with so much extra stuff that I assumed they did it more than one or two times a year. I guess I learned my new fact for the day.

It's really nothing to bring a small grill and a cooler full of beer. Get a group together where you carpool, get whatever tickets you feel are necessary (cheapies are nice if you're planning on spending a good chunk of time in the bar) and have each person bring a little something. It's really easy that way. You end up with a lot of good food at a cheap price and you have fun that lasts for hours. At Miller Park you could probably just sleep there if you wanted to. I've stayed there hours after the game, until literally being one of like 5 cars left in the parking lot, and nobody gives a s***. It's like heaven over there.

 

But anyway, it all depends on the person. You may be a hardcore fan but you don't mind hosting tailgates and bringing along a revolving door of friends/family/co-workers (some of whom don't give two s***s about baseball) throughout the season, because the main thing is that it's fun for everyone and you get to go to the ballpark. And it's a little cheaper that way, too, plus some added benefits occasionally (it's not unheard of to bring a bigass cooler and end up leaving the park with more beer than you yourself bought in the first place).

 

Or OTOH maybe you are just one of these (in my eyes rare) people who don't care about baseball much but just want the ballpark experience. Like another poster mentioned, maybe you do it for the kids. Why would you want to make it a big hassle having to fight traffic to get there, then after parking rush to get into the park, then having to buy all park food, and then sitting in your seats all game like it's a chore, and then leaving as soon as the game is over? Why not instead get there a couple hours early, bring a small portable grill, easily obtainable for $20 or so if you don't have one, maybe even cheaper, throw a few burgers/brats/dogs on, play catch with the kid, have a beer, sit around and chat for a while? Then when it's time to head in, instead of feeling rushed, or feeling like you have to kill time, you're leisurely strolling up to the turnstiles with the taste of beer brat in your mouth, and a nice little buzz going, and you're enjoying the summer sun, and you're just happy to be there. And to top it off, you're not going to be pressured into buying Nazi ripoff ballpark food.

 

But yeah, everyone tailgates. Non-tailgaters don't even know what they're missing IMO.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

If the question is, will adult fans switch allegiance from the Cubs to the Sox, the answer is no. Just won't happen to any significant extent no matter how good or bad either team are.

 

But... the Sox being better than the Cubs for a while, and the stadium going in opposite directions, will most certainly help the Sox draw more fans that might otherwise go to the Cubs. So they are competitors. Its just that they are competing in a couple specific areas:

 

--People who are not die hard fans of either team, will flock more often to the team winning more and with a better stadium experience

--Kids choose teams to follow, and getting more kids as fans will help attendence in the long run

 

These are definite factors. And the Sox have done a much better job than the Cubs not only at winning, but at making the stadium a better experience for both adults and kids over the past decade or so.

 

So yes, they are competitors, in a few specific areas.

I will agree with this that under these conditions the teams are in direct competition with each other. I still doubt that it would come into play as much for people who have lived in the Chicagoland area for quite some time, but for people who are transplants from other areas, it's probably a huge factor.

[Texsox]

It's really nothing to bring a small grill and a cooler full of beer. Get a group together where you carpool, get whatever tickets you feel are necessary (cheapies are nice if you're planning on spending a good chunk of time in the bar) and have each person bring a little something. It's really easy that way. You end up with a lot of good food at a cheap price and you have fun that lasts for hours. At Miller Park you could probably just sleep there if you wanted to. I've stayed there hours after the game, until literally being one of like 5 cars left in the parking lot, and nobody gives a s***. It's like heaven over there.

 

But anyway, it all depends on the person. You may be a hardcore fan but you don't mind hosting tailgates and bringing along a revolving door of friends/family/co-workers (some of whom don't give two s***s about baseball) throughout the season, because the main thing is that it's fun for everyone and you get to go to the ballpark. And it's a little cheaper that way, too, plus some added benefits occasionally (it's not unheard of to bring a bigass cooler and end up leaving the park with more beer than you yourself bought in the first place).

 

Or OTOH maybe you are just one of these (in my eyes rare) people who don't care about baseball much but just want the ballpark experience. Like another poster mentioned, maybe you do it for the kids. Why would you want to make it a big hassle having to fight traffic to get there, then after parking rush to get into the park, then having to buy all park food, and then sitting in your seats all game like it's a chore, and then leaving as soon as the game is over? Why not instead get there a couple hours early, bring a small portable grill, easily obtainable for $20 or so if you don't have one, maybe even cheaper, throw a few burgers/brats/dogs on, play catch with the kid, have a beer, sit around and chat for a while? Then when it's time to head in, instead of feeling rushed, or feeling like you have to kill time, you're leisurely strolling up to the turnstiles with the taste of beer brat in your mouth, and a nice little buzz going, and you're enjoying the summer sun, and you're just happy to be there. And to top it off, you're not going to be pressured into buying Nazi ripoff ballpark food.

 

But yeah, everyone tailgates. Non-tailgaters don't even know what they're missing IMO.

 

It all makes sense, I guess I was always around regulars and never noticed the one timers. Tailgating always seemed like the next level, not the first level. Deciding to go to a game, buying the ticket, finding the parking lot, etc. Then expanding the experience from there. Tailgating seemed like something for later trips.

[NorthSideSox72]

I will agree with this that under these conditions the teams are in direct competition with each other. I still doubt that it would come into play as much for people who have lived in the Chicagoland area for quite some time, but for people who are transplants from other areas, it's probably a huge factor.

Good point, I should have added a bullet for people moving into town, if they aren't already aligned with a team.