[NBA Offseason Thread]

I'm one of the few who agrees with you, but I'm also in their camp when I say.. watch the games, at least more closely. Deng is one of the worst players to get assist with with his efficiency and tendency to pass up shots and drive to the hole, only to not finish. (not strong or athletic enough, which is why I'm interested to see what Thibs does with him if he runs plays Deng is strong at like Scott Skiles did in the early years) It seems everytime Rose passed the ball to an open man, he'd miss the shot. (or try to do too much with the ball, I.E. Deng, B. Miller, Salmons and his jab step, etc..) He doesn't have Ben Gordon anymore (and I'm not a big BG fan like nitetrain) so there goes the best shooter he's played with last year. When Kirk Hinrich is your only legitimate shooter on the floor more often than not (but has a PG first mentality which means he'd more often than not pass up the shot unless he is wide open, though he isn't THAT great of a shooter) then your screwed on assist efficiency. And please don't get me started on the rebounding rate.

 

I dont know what to say man, I just think a lot of players brick shots, or pass up shots in general, not just the bulls, it's not like Rose has the hardest teammates to pass the ball to. I tend to think the other way around. I am not sure if this has to do with the offense Vinny runs, but if Rose can set up players with good looks inside or around the basket, instead of midrange or perimeter shots, they would more likely convert them into baskets. granted, deng is not a great athlete, but he has shown he has the ability to finish around the basket with some post moves and occasional drives to the basket (he did that a lot more last season), and put backs, noah and taj are also capable or finishing around the basket as well. If Rose is really a floor general like some people claim that he is, he can orchestrate the offense and direct where the players should go, and set something up out of nothing, you see that with Nash, Paul, Rondo, kidd and Dwill, who are the true great playmakers, that's why I said, right now, Rose is not a great playmaker. That doesn't mean he won't develop into one. With new system, new teammates this season, he can probably improve in that department, but he will not match the likes of the aforementioned.

[NBA Offseason Thread]

The offensive talent he had to work with was just superb as well.

 

 

really, the offense around him is THAT bad which lead to him having the 3rd worst ast/usg rate in the league?

 

you can't possibly justifying in saying Rose is a great playmaker, just can't

[NBA Offseason Thread]

btw, stats can also prove my claim that Rose is not a great playmaker, not even a good one.

 

of all the point guards last season, Rose had the 2nd highest usage rate, behind Arenas, but ranked 56 out of 67 point guards in Assist rate, so can you really justify him being a great playmaker?

 

 

Also, Rose ranked 28th of all PG in terms of Rebound rate, extremely low for the most athletic point guard in the league, while Westbrook ranked 3rd, and rondo 5th, and we all know westbrook can play physical defense, play the passing lane and go for the steal and lead to easy dunks, can't say the same for Rose. Really, Rose can take some lessons from Westbrook on how to utilize his physical ability, cuz Rose, Westbrook and Rondo are really cut from the same clothes in terms of athleticism.

 

so guys, please get of my grills on this subject. thanks B)

[NBA Offseason Thread]

So you want Rose to turn into a shooting guard? Cause at this point that is the route he is going. I take FIBA games with a huge grain of salt, but if you want to go that route, he had the most assist out of everyone in the tournament. (per 48 and a game) He has already shown better defense and court awareness than last year alone from evaluating him and oh yea.. he is still just 21 years old. Alot of times, FIBA basketball doesn't suit certain players. Rondo got cut from the team (ya.. Rondo.. not buying you "leaving") cause he doesn't fit that style of play. Don't know if you remember, but D-Will and Paul both struggled immensely in their first go at the FIBA tournament. When you have guys like Jasekevicus and Langdon who were Euro stars, but struggled in the NBA game, you always have to remember "ya.. there are FIBA games." Ball is much different, different rules, different three point line, etc.. etc.. Do I think Rose will ever see the floor like CP3, Nash, Rondo? Probably not, though he's shown flashes (remember a couple great passes to Deng, but Deng couldn't finish since he isn't strong inside) but surround him with some shooters, he can most certainly turn into D-Will (who doesn't have the greatest vision either well... not like those three or Billups) Obviously Westbrook has developed a touch faster. He has had a superstar to play with from day one, a competent coach, improved his shooting, etc. Rose though has the higher potential, already has improved his shooting, and has averaged 20/6 in his second full NBA season not to mention has done this pretty much by himself (can't say the same for Rondo, Westbrook etc..). He's got Boozer, Korver and needs one more shooter, and a defensive guy in Brewer paired with him in the backcourt. (and I like Thibs going back on running plays for Deng 2006-07 version) He'll be fine. Now give him a guy like Carmelo.. he will defer more (probably could net 10 assist) and not have all the pressure to be "the man." I was 90/10 on getting Melo for Noah 2 weeks ago. Now re-evaluating it.. I'm more like 60/40. Just something about Melo who "could not" be that great of a fit. (unlike a guy like LeBron who is more of a distributor, plays better D, and can score) I'd be shocked if he doesn't average 18-25(depending on Melo)/3-5/8-10 with a steal and a half and better shooting % from the three.

 

Agreed

 

but most of what you said are based on pure projection, Rose hasn't done anything to be recognized as a "great" playmaker at the moment, which is what Kyyle is suggesting Rose is. All I am saying is Rose is not a great playmaker, and lacks 3point shooting to ideally compliment Carmelo.

 

@Kyyle, since you say you watch plenty of bulls games, I am just curious that on what ground is Rose a great playmaker, because so far, you haven't prove why he should be consider one.

 

If we were to trade our franchise center for another piece, don't you think it ought to be a piece that fits with our team/ We are lacking outside shooting and another tough wing defender right now. We should be good on the scoring with b00zer and rose getting 20 per.

[NBA Offseason Thread]

I said he gets better at what people point out are his weaknesses, I didnt specify anything.

 

Like I said before, I will disagree with you and leave it at that. Anyone who says that Rose could learn a thing or two from Russell Westbrook doesnt need much prodding to get into a Rose/Playmaker argument

 

I did say Rose needs to learn from westbrook in terms of utilizing his athleticism, not playmaking ability

 

http://espn.go.com/blog/TrueHoop/post/_/id...ll-be-in-london

 

before the tournament, sheridan has Rose as a lock for the 2012 olympics team, now westbrook makes the cut for him. If anything, westbrook did show that he knows how to play pressure defense and converting into highlight dunks on the other end, and bunny hops for the rebound against bigger guys. I am really not making crap up when i say rose needs to learn from westbrook.

 

Ok i will also leave it like that, there is nothing wrong with being a homer and rooting for your hometown star, but sometimes you also have to see things from a perspective outside of Chicago. Your favorite player does have weaknesses, and for Rose at the momment, that is court vision and great playmaking ability, and hitting the 3 point shot.

[NBA Offseason Thread]

Not sure how this makes your case, and you'll note I didn't say that CP3 had a low post scoring threat (the best scoring threats he's had around him are David West and occasionally healthy Stojakovic. Chandler showed a noticeable increase in his fg %age 2 of his 3 years in NOK with Paul, but his points/minute never really changed; he was a somewhat more efficient scorer in NOK, but he's basically a 10-12 points in 36 minutes guy his entire career.

 

but you do realize that the number of assists paul gets from dishing to chandler is alarmingly high. granted, chandler is a little bit more athletic than noah. same case with lebron and varejao. great playmakers gets assist from dishing to those garbage scorers like chandler, varejao and noah, i just haven't seen much of that with rose

 

granted, paul does have chandler, peja, and west, but with or without chandler or peja, paul still performs the same. and when david west went out for 30 games in 06-07, paul actually increased his assist totals to 10 per game. who did he have again? chandler and peja? that is what you called a great playmaker.

[NBA Offseason Thread]

Where did I say that passing is his weakness?

 

And if you think ESPN is objective then I have some oceanfront property in Iowa you may be interested in

 

 

i am sorry for misquoting you, you said that some people think was his weakness.

 

but if i were to get an objective opinion from either bulls fans, or espn writers on Rose's game, I would go with ESPN. After all, why would ESPN be biased against Rose? So all the people who said Rose is a not a great playmaker is biased against Rose, except those people from Chicago. great argument.

[NBA Offseason Thread]

2 points.

 

First of all...when they had been in the league for 2 years...I think you could have made exactly this same argument about each and every one of the guys you cite.

 

Secondly...Rondo and Nash both have had vastly better low-post scoring options and all 3 have had much better outside scoring options than what DR1 has had to contend with, particularly last year after Gordon departed. Basically, the question is...if he breaks down into the lane and the defense collapses on him, who does he send the ball of to? Noah isn't very good on the receive and finish, and there really was no one on the Bulls last year who was a legit 3 point threat.

 

 

yah yah yah... here it comes the argument of rose doesn't have a good supporting cast, we will see what happens when he plays with boozer.

 

you made your point, some of those guys weren't great playmakers after 2 years. but am I right in saying Rose isn't a great playmaker right now? why can't some people admit that?

 

and one thing, if you say noah is not a good finisher, then what about chandler? we all saw what he can do in chicago. the guy has whopper jr. hands! he can't even grip the ball properly with one hand.

[NBA Offseason Thread]

No I dont. I really disagree with you here, and I will leave it at that. I have watched pretty much all of the Bulls games the past two years myself, and clearly you are watching something else.

 

 

I am well aware that you are a bulls fan, and so am I. but if you watch the game objectively, you will see Rose in terms of playmaking ability is along the lines of Jennings or Evans, decent but not great. If you think Rose is a great playmaker, then what is Rondo, CP3, Dwill and others?

 

Taking nothing away from him, he is a great player, just not a great playmaker. Like you said, passing is his weakness, just accept that. Please go ahead, and read articles from ESPN, Foxsports, or anything like that, and get objective opinions from other writers and fans.

[NBA Offseason Thread]

WTF, alpha male? How about Rose plays great in the NBA on the bulls every game. Doesnt that do enough for you? Durant's presence had nothing to do with anything Rose did in a FIBA tournament. I can say with a 100% certainty that not only with DRose have a great season, but if they added another star to the team, he would have an even better season because they would win.

 

really? do you have to think again before you make that comment?

 

I am willing to make a bet with you that if we have boozer and carmelo on the team, rose would not even put up numbers like he did last season.

[NBA Offseason Thread]

Actually I think you are clearly stating your opinion, as I think he is a dynamic playmaker and every game he seems to get better at what people point out as his weaknesses.

 

 

I will have to disagree here. From all the bulls games i watched over the past two years (believe me, I watch plenty) and the FIBA games i watched this past month, Rose is clearly not a great playmaker. He is decent but not great. Most of his assists come from dishing to open shooters who would hit the shot or simple passes in transition that lead to easy layups. Rarely do you see him driving into the lane and passing off to someone else for the score, nor do you see him make those tough passes through tight spaces that lead to easy score. he just doesn't court vision of CP3, dwill, nash, kidd, rondo and even westbrook. If you watch guys like Rondo, CP3 and nash run the point and compare it to Rose, it's a whole new world.

 

I do think that Rose is a top 3 or 4 pg right now because he has the unique combination of scoring, athleticism and decent playmaking ability. But come on, you have to accept the fact that he is only a decent play maker RIGHT NOW, not a great one.

[NBA Offseason Thread]

Not sure if you noticed but Durant was the only one on the team to average double figures. Rose had the most assists on the team, no big deal to struggle on a team filled with superstars

 

 

filled with superstars? exactly who besides durant is a superstar? rose was suppose to play second fiddle to durant, and he played so poorly at the end that he had a 0 point game vs in the semis, played only 12 minutes, and was nearly pulled out of the starting lineup in the finals. Bryan Colangelo even said after the win that he felt good for Rose after he scored 3 baskets in the fourth quarter of the finals to get some of his confidence back.

 

After all, it's the FIBAs game, we shouldn't take too much from it. but it's still worth pointing out that he played poorly when playing next to an alpha male.

[NBA Offseason Thread]

LOL why are you judging Rose so harshly from watching the FIBA games? You have been just killing him all summer long and it really is without merit, its just the FIBA games, those games are exhibition games for NBA players

 

Criticism? I don't think so. Rose is clearly not a great playmaker nor a three point shooter, we are well aware of that, so just stating the obvious right there. All I am saying is pairing him with a dominant scorer in the form of Melo might not be a better fit than pairing with a shooter. just like people who said rose and wade will not make a good backcourt, pure analysis

[NBA Offseason Thread]

Stupid, stupid article here if you want something to laugh at. Yahoo writer has Rose and Durant as the 1st and 2nd most overrated players on his list. http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=ac-6753654

 

 

LOL the writer's name is JM Van Horn. Who is he? Keith Van Horn's bitter little brother who hates on all the players who can jump higher than Keith?

 

[NBA Offseason Thread]

I would assume that Noah would replace Gibson in the deal, not be added.

 

Personally, I'll drive Joakim to the airport. You don't snub opportunities to acquire 26-year old top 10 NBA players. Other high-energy, no-score centers will come available, more Carmelo Anthony's to pair with D-Rose will not.

 

 

personally, i am a little hesitant to trade for Carmelo after seeing how poorly Rose played with a dominant scorer on the team like Durant. Rose needs to take his shots to be effective and is not a great playmaker, and does not have the 3 point shooting to compliment Carmelo. Now, maybe the poor performance was a fluke or it had something to do with the FIBA style, but I am not sure if pairing Rose with Carmelo would be a better fit than having Rose and Noah.

[Mathematically Ova!]

things are getting so bad now, in my fantasy baseball league, this week is the championship week. yesterday i picked up Gio Gonzales from the waiver wire and he performed well. I just pick up Brett Anderson also, who is starting against the Sox tomorrow. These poor White Sox may just help me win my fantasy league

[Another ridiculously long SI.com article on KW & the Sox]

after reading the article, i think a good reclamation project would be Joba Chamberlain. This guy has the so called "Chicago tough" Kenny is looking for, and is going the adversity of failing in a big city media right now.

 

Peripheral wise, he gave up 21 homerun and 76 walks in 155 innings last season, If Coop can get him to throw a cutter and reduce his HR rate and walk rate like his work with Ejax, Joba can be scary good, can be sort of like the Josh Johnson of AL.

[Another ridiculously long SI.com article on KW & the Sox]

One hole in that... What it takes to win a division is based on who finished second. If the second place team won 85 games, it only took 86 games to actually win the division.

 

 

one hole in your argument. You have to top the first place team to win the division, not by topping the so called "second place team". theoretically, the first place team will finish with that amount of win no matter what the other teams do. So the 2007 Indians will finish with 96 wins regardless of what the second place team do. In order to top them and win the division, you need 97 wins. So the OP was correct when saying you need 93.66 wins to win the division.

[Just a What if Question...]

agree with most of you, beckham will be a sell low right now. All of you people who wants to trade him will be crying if he ends up performing to his potential after being traded.

 

a better what if question is what if Dan Hudson wasn't traded, how good can he be with the white sox, and how good our rotation would look in the future.

[If we don't win tomorrow, it's over]

wow, talk about being an optimist, you are definitely an extreme one. the season has been over before the series started. Our plan was to sweep the twins this series, being 3 back with 12 to go is already a long shot. 7 back with 12 to go? not even if the Twins implodes to finish the season. If the twins go 5-7, and we would have to go 12-0. you probably have a better chance of winning the little lotto instead.

 

funny that everyone wants a sweep of the twins this series, even the players, but we could be the one end up being swept. good job white sox.

[WS playing for Championship]

Before we ask people to elaborate...I probably ought to offer a reminder that occasionally people from the organization do drop by here...and we have no idea how high up those people might be. Just something to think about for your own personal benefit.

 

 

for all I care, oney guillen can cry his panties off when he reads what people here say about him!

[The Official "Paul Konerko for MVP" Thread]

Well, to each their own I guess, but I see the MVP as the player who is the most valuable to their team, and if your team didn't make the playoffs, then you couldn't have provided THAT much value to them.

 

 

an example here. so if you feel that Cano is a more deserving candidate than Konerko. What if Cano didn't have A-Rod on the team, and now A-Rod plays for the white sox now, and the sox made the playoffs with the addition of A-Rod. So what if Cano and Konerko posted the same number as they have right now, wouldn't they theoretically provided the same value? so why now would Konerko become more valuable due to the addition of A-Rod? Don't you think it's really unfair to those players if they put up those great great numbers, and their team would have made the playoffs if their GM had surrounded them with a great team?

[The Official "Paul Konerko for MVP" Thread]

Cy Young is defined as the best pitcher in the league. Team performance doesn't matter. MVP is defined as the most valuable player in the league. Team performance SHOULD matter. Why is it that in the NFL the player that wins the MVP does not necessarily win the Offensive Player of the Year or the Defensive Player of the Year? This has happened the past 2 years now.

 

I don't have the information on top of my head, but I am pretty sure NFL MVPs have came from teams didn't make the playoffs before. and also, in NFL they emphasize playoff berths in the MVP award heavier because they already have an award designated for the best offensive player.

 

Ultimately, I think your argument boils down to, do you view the term VALUE as wins or playoff berth.

 

For me, i think the word value suggests nothing about making the playoffs, it only denotes the amount of wins you can bring to the team over a replacement player.

[Manny Should Just Retire...]

i think it would be really funny if the Twins or some other signs Manny as a DH next season and performs very well, then some of you guys go like man we should fire ozzie or whoever for not bringing back Manny!

[The Official "Paul Konerko for MVP" Thread]

No, the point is right now they are a lock for the playoffs. But without Cano, they are barely in a playoff position, and fighting to make it. That's quite a difference. But whether the Sox are 7 games out or 13 games out doesn't really matter because either way they have almost no chance at the playoffs.

 

 

The thinking of MVP should come from a playoff team is really outdated. Same thinking that the Cy Young award should have league leading wins or close to it. It used to be that most Cy Young winnners are 20 game winners or close to it. But writers are speculating that parameters for the award are changing after Lincecum won it with 18 wins then 15 wins, and then Greinke won it with 16 wins. and this year, many feel that Felix hernandez is the leading candidate with 11 wins. Those players are elite pitchers, though they couldn't win more games because the offense the team assembles is not scoring runs.

 

A player really has no control over what the other players do. This isn't basketball where you can make your teammates better, it's really an individual award. If your teammates aren't performing well, your team won't make the playoffs despite how good you are.

 

If you really think about it, the term value only represent the quality a players brings to a team, i.e. WAR. If a player have a WAR of 8, that means he adds a value of 8 wins to the team, doesn't mean that his team will make the playoffs with those 8 wins the player adds, because his teammates flat out sucks. So why would would give an award to a player with a value of 6 wins, even if his team makes the playoffs? wouldn't you think that a player who brings 8 more wins to a team would be more valuable than a player who would win 6 more games for the team, regardless of playoff berth?