ApplingsRevenge

I agree with DBAHO. The winter meetings haven't started yet. Most of us thought we wouldn't resign most of these guys anyway (although I was hoping we'd bring back Colon). I like to look at the glass as half-full as a result of losing Colon. We may keep Ordonez and still make a move for a starter. If nothing else, KW is aggressive and will not sit on what we have. The price is my concern. We still have options: Perez, Millwood, Ponson, anyone else out of the blue.....if no significant moves are made after the winter meetings, start panicking. Until then, I prefer to speculate.

I think Loaiza is a #2 for next year, he's earned it. I think we can all agree that Loaiza is not a #1. I don't think MB is a #1 starter either, but I think a lot of him as a starter, (3 good pitches, not a power arm so no injuries, good control & composure). I still think Colon may be back, if not, Williams will make a move for a #1. He's done it before, and I love that attitude considering the acquisition of quality starting pitching. My best case starting rotation would be Colon, MB, Loaiza, Garland, fill in the blank for 5. All four of them were solid enough in '03, the hitting let us down.....we're a bit closer than we think.

I don't think it's that simple. I think KW is a gambler, but we might need that to get to the next level. I loved the Colon move, and the Everett & Alomar moves. I think they show a commitment to winning. As far as the thought that he's depleted the farm system, I disagree. The prospect lists change all the time, from month to month, to the degree that NOBODY knows who will emerge unless they actually get the chance in the big leagues. What I'm trying to say is, we don't know what the payroll is for 2004. We don't know who the Sox are going to keep & get rid of. Williams has ALWAYS been aggressive in bringing in people that he thinks will help. Although some of these moves have backfired, the intent was always to improve. I still like our chances in '04 and think that we can adjust with our trade possibilities to improve the club. It's early, very early. applingsrevenge

There were rumblings about Percival for Ordonez, but that would be stupid. I'd like Percival, but the price would have to be a little less, while respecting Percival's status. How about Garland for Percival? LOL, the owner would consider Garland a non-marketable player just like last off-season....

1.) We'll need to give them someone else with Ordonez for both, they'll smell the salary dump and expect prospects. I don't think this can happen. Maybe Maggs for one or the other, but not both, they know our situation with payroll. I've changed my thinking on this as the off-season has gone on. I've been hot for the Ordonez/Soriano/Johnson deal, but I fear we'll end up on the short end of talent. 2.) The best move because it solves more problems, but again, a salary dump. I'd rather dump Ordonez for pitching & Izturis over the proposed options. We may not need to throw in Jose, the Dodgers are desperate for hitters. I'd do this at the last possible minute if we haven't picked up another starter to replace Colon. If we've signed Colon, I still wait and bargain from a position of strength, I'd do this move to give us a fantastic starting 5 (Colon, MB, Loaiza, Perez, Garland). 3 of them are on the cheap. 3.) Not even in the realm of possibility. applingsrevenge

LOL!!!! That's harsh. I'll hate him if he pitches anywhere else. I'm still in the camp that thinks we still have a chance to sign him, but we're starving to death, we have 2 tree huts and some horse meat. I'll stay till the end, I think fat guys can pitch effectively until they're 35.

Also, for reference, a quick comparison of Billy Koch & Kyle Farnsworth: Both can throw 99-100 MPH (Koch when healthy) Billy Koch: Blows a save, gets angry, looks intense and self-loathing on the way off the mound. Kyle Farnsworth: Blows a lead in the 7th or 8th, looks like he doesn't give a s***, lighty fingers his puka shell necklace on the way off the mound and leaves Wrigley for the nearest tanning salon so he can look good at the bar that night. I thought it was a humorous comparison. Koch just seems more like a baseball player to me. ApplingsRevenge

If you're in the Koch camp, it's a lonely camp to be in. I hope you're right, and I agree about the Cedeno move, I wouldn't trade ANY pitching for that waste. I'd think about Koch in a setup role though (I may be burned for this, but I think he's lost confidence, the best we can hope for at this point is a Kyle Farnsworth with heart). I'm starting to have strange ideas about Danny Wright as closer, I know, stupid.....but we need a closer. ApplingsRevenge

I think the Sox should wait if they're going to trade Ordonez to ensure maximum value unless it's Soriano, which I consider maximum value. You make good points about the current market, which is all our speculation anyway, LOL! Any chance we could trade Ordonez, Honel, Rauch, Konerko and cash for Soriano & Nick Johnson? That may seem like a bit much to people, but I'm a BIG Nick Johnson fan. ApplingsRevenge

We could bury Maggs next to ol' Hambone by the viaduct on 35th Street. Of course, we'd have to charge admission......

If Vlad only gets 12 per year in this off-season, I'd completely change my point of view and not trade Ordonez. That market set would give the White Sox a fighting chance to keep him on the South Side for his career without crippling us in finances (we could concentrate on getting rid of Koch/Konerko). I'm a big fan of the low market rumors, it only helps the White Sox compete with the bloated sharks (Yankees, Red Sox, Mets, Dodgers). I hope you're right. ApplingsRevenge

Grinders....Williams wanted grinders.....I hope Erstad isn't one of those, LOL! We need grinders that stay off the DL.

Ordonez in the current market is not worth only 8 million per year, that's ridiculous. However, 14 million is ridiculous as well. I would offer Maggs a 5 year, 55 million contract with incentives pertaining to bonuses based on playoff appearances, World Series appearances, etc. I'd offer him this before the winter meetings. If he doesn't take it, move him now, because he doesn't want to be here.

I agree. For Perez, it would have to be Lee. We might get that one straight up though, Lee is on the cusp and the Dodgers desperately need hitters. I would do it.

I think Magglio for Percival and Erstad would be disastrous for us. I don't think it gives us anywhere near real value for Ordonez. I am definitely in for moving Ordonez because we cannot afford him at our present payroll that seems to be inflexible. Ordonez for Soriano makes more sense for the talent return, Soriano's strikeouts included. He at least provides the possiblity of greatness with some guaranteed power production at a reduced price. Percival? Great pitcher, but you don't trade a player like Ordonez with the primary return being a closer. Erstad? His career's ship has sailed, ladies and gentlemen, and with that salary, don't you think the right move would be to just keep Everett for 1 million more per year? Williams should quell his erection for Erstad (if the rumors are true), sign Everett (sigh...I know it won't happen) and move Ordonez in a few weeks when the bidding goes up. Worst case scenario: Ordonez stays with the Sox, which is fine with me if we negotiate a REASONABLE extension to keep him here for the next 4-5 years. ApplingsRevenge

Who cares? It's our game, and the better other countries play, the better for the game. I'd love to see golden rocket ships (ala Simpsons) take the World Series to Australia and Zimbabwae for playoff games before it's all said and done. Imagine a game seven, the Chicago White Sox vs. the Calcutta Runners for the right to play the winner of the Los Angeles Dodgers vs. the Copenhagen Knights..... I apologize. I just got home & I've had a few drinks. However, the globalization of the greatest game ever invented I'll stand behind. I won't stand behind my drunken state. Go Sox. ApplingsRevenge

Anyone want a laugh? Go to the MLB Cub board site and check out the thread titled something like "Championship or Wrigley?", meaning would you get rid of Wrigley for a World Series title. Those dopes almost to a man said the park was worth more than a World Series title. No wonder the Tribune Company scalps tickets to Cub fans, even their diehards admit that they're basically tourists in a building. Too f***ing funny. What a bunch of assheads.....

I wouldn't vote for Lee for a Gold Glove, but I'll definitely agree that he has improved a great deal in the field. I just don't see him chasing down balls & making great plays, he catches everything that comes to him now (except in the filthy Metrodome, what a white roofed disgrace), and is fearless in the corner (he used to be a sissy on foul balls in 2001-2 in my opinion). Not Gold Glove, but above average with determination. Crede has Gold Glove written all over him, soft hands, good arm, good sense, good instincts. Crede just needs to hit .270, 20, 80 and he's irreplaceable at 3B for the Sox in my opinion.

LOL! I hear ya, but I think Reinsdorf got the best of both worlds for himself on this one. He keeps his Hall of Famer around and gets the manager he wants. I just want them to get along, and if that means Frank doing the little things, he should listen.

I'll admit that I'm worried that there will be problems between Thomas & Guillen (the Guillen ridiculing Thomas when they played together for taking grounders at short comes to mind). I think JR's pick was hired, and I think that sends a message to everyone (Thomas included) that the sometime lethargy surrounding the team 2001-present will not be tolerated.

CW, I think the ultimate goal of an Ordonez/Soriano trade would be to clear up salary concerns for the short term (2004). However, I hold out little hope of a long term contract for Ordonez unless the FA market hits rock bottom (it seems to be on the way, which is good). Let's hope rock bottom is in the next offseason. ApplingsRevenge Right I understand that, however I think people are getting ahead of themselves just assuming that we are going to dump salary. I know that Kenny has said the payroll will be about the same as last year, but that doesn't mean the only solution is trading Maggs. We do know for sure that someone is going to be traded this off-season, however I feel it would be a grave mistake to trade Maggs when we have guys we're wasting money on like Koch and Konerko. CWSOX45 I agree that dumping Koch & Konerko would be the better move, but I think that we might have to pay a percentage of their salaries to get that done, which defeats the purpose of decreasing payroll to pay Ordonez & make moves in the FA market.

I own a Baines jersey, would like get a few more, Steve Kemp and Jerry Dybzinski come to mind, LOL!

CW, I think the ultimate goal of an Ordonez/Soriano trade would be to clear up salary concerns for the short term (2004). However, I hold out little hope of a long term contract for Ordonez unless the FA market hits rock bottom (it seems to be on the way, which is good). Let's hope rock bottom is in the next offseason. ApplingsRevenge

I don't think Ozzie would be fired early unless there was a disastrous turn of events (100 loss season for example). He's got a 3 year contract, he'll be with us for 3 years. To be honest, I was surprised that Manuel was even fired, simply because of the fact that he still has to be paid. If nothing, the White Sox are a very fiscally responsible organization.

I'm still hoping for the Ordonez/Soriano trade, but I agree with you Rex. The possibility of an Ordonez/Soriano & Johnson trade is zero, and your reasons illustrate the point completely. I once thought this trade possible, but Johnson's upside has pushed me into the other camp. ApplingsRevenge