southsideirish

QUOTE(WHarris1 @ Sep 6, 2006 -> 04:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Is that an achievement? Any manager that comes in here and the players win him a world series is one of our best ever, instantly. Yes, it is that simple. You can say the players win any coach a world championship in any sport. Ozzie has said this himself. However, before the season started last year, not one person gave this team a shot to win, not even its own fans. At the end of the year they are world champions. What does that tell you? It was more than JUST the players. The players had to perform and execute, however there had to be more than just that.

QUOTE(kapkomet @ Sep 6, 2006 -> 04:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Ummmmmmmm... go listen to the podcast, and do a little research before bashing Steff this time. She's just repeating what Jason said in a post already, she's not the one saying anything. /carry on - this is a lively debate repeating is not saying? I'm just saying.

QUOTE(Steff @ Sep 6, 2006 -> 04:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Ya.. cause the players are liars!!! Jason, cut those mf'ers off. The players are that confident in you to let you know they are sick of his act? Yeah, ok! Here little fan, go spread this on the message boards..... We trust you completely. QUOTE(WHarris1 @ Sep 6, 2006 -> 04:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Yeah, I mean he won us everything last year, all Ozzie, how dare anyone criticize him? Where did anyone say not to criticize? People are looking for things to critcize. Such as this article. There was nothing wrong with what he said at all. That said, is he not one of our greatest managers ever?

QUOTE(fathom @ Sep 6, 2006 -> 04:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> You've hinted at the possibility that there are some in the clubhouse that are sick of his attitude. Do you still think this is a legitimate assessment of the environment surrounding the team? If this was really true don't you think we would have heard it reported by now? Wouldn't we have heard this from the local radio baseball insiders? ESPN insiders? This would have came out already if it was truly the case.

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Sep 6, 2006 -> 04:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> But see, at least IMO, it should be the manager's job to keep the team motivated. Think about some of the great managers out there...not all of them are great tactical managers, but a lot of them are great motivational people. You don't look at Bill Parcells and feel like guys are being lazy on his team. I don't think many of Tony LaRussa's guys come off as lazy. There's always talk in the NFL about what's on the Patriots' bulletin board and how that will affect the next game with the Colts. Yes, it's the players job to get amped up. But I always felt like the manager is a big part of making it easy for that to happen. Just think about Ozzie Guillen 2005 if you need any other example...a lot of these same guys...but for the most part, they were able to keep focused on the game, and aside from a few weeks, there was always some level of intensity, there was always something surprising, there was always some big play made by a guy who hustled his butt off. Where is all of that this year? By the way, who are these great motivational managers? Joe Torre? Terry Francona? Jack McKeon? Bobby Cox? Tommy Lasorda? Billy Martin? Earl Weaver? I am trying to look back and find these great motivational managers and I don't see it. Just give me some examples. I would like to see what you mean and what your idea of a motivational baseball manager is.

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Sep 6, 2006 -> 04:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> But see, at least IMO, it should be the manager's job to keep the team motivated. Think about some of the great managers out there...not all of them are great tactical managers, but a lot of them are great motivational people. You don't look at Bill Parcells and feel like guys are being lazy on his team. I don't think many of Tony LaRussa's guys come off as lazy. There's always talk in the NFL about what's on the Patriots' bulletin board and how that will affect the next game with the Colts. Yes, it's the players job to get amped up. But I always felt like the manager is a big part of making it easy for that to happen. Just think about Ozzie Guillen 2005 if you need any other example...a lot of these same guys...but for the most part, they were able to keep focused on the game, and aside from a few weeks, there was always some level of intensity, there was always something surprising, there was always some big play made by a guy who hustled his butt off. Where is all of that this year? To get them motivated to play meaningful playoff type of games? Seriously? I mean there are times to motivate guys, but they shouldn't need extra motivation at this point. The carrot is there. Get the freaking carrot!!! f***! How much motivation do they need! If they do then shame on them. I highly doubt Bill Parcells has to motivate anyone for a playoff game or for a game that could get them into the playoffs. I doubt the Patriots need any motivation to play the colts or the Colts to play the Patriots. If you can look at Ozzie and think that he has lost the fire, then s***, you are better at seeing it than I am. He looks just as intense as he always does when they pan over to him. He is in the game, getting on the umps asses. You have to ask the players where it is this year. Some guys seem to be playing hard and playing for the team. Others don't. Uribe doesn't look like he did last year defensively. Iguchi doesn't look like the # 2 hitter he was last year. Pods is freaking awful. Our pitching blows. I think those things have more to do with us losing than Ozzie's fire and him motivating guys.

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Sep 6, 2006 -> 03:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> If I sat there watching this team and felt like they were playing with an ounce of passion...I wouldn't really care right now if Ozzie was still costing this team games with what I consider to be poor decisions. Last year, Ozzie made plenty of poor decisions (Timo @ 1b), but the team still won. I just don't see fire right now. That's what I wanted from Ozzie when he came in...give the team some balls. In 2005 it worked. My eyes right now see a bunch of people swinging for the fences and not acting like they're willing to give themselves up for their team, and that's what hurts. I agree, but I can't see that as Ozzie's fault or any coach's fault. It is sad and disgusting, but if a player can't get up and have passion for these games that can get you into the playoffs and win a championship then that falls on the player. Come one, do you really need someone to fire you up for these games, these types of situations? I sure hope not. It is just a sad group of players that can't get amped up to play these games. QUOTE(Steff @ Sep 6, 2006 -> 03:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Completely agree 15000000%. For whatever reason, he's lost that fire. Maybe it's too many commercials.. maybe too many tv specials.. I dunno, but it's something and it sucks. He lost the fire? really? I didn't know Oz still played. I would say he and Coop are the two I hear and see that still have the fire. The players seem to think it is just any other game, no big deal. That's f***ed up. I don't know where they get that attitude from, but it doesn't seem like it is coming from Guillen or Coop.

QUOTE(shoota @ Sep 6, 2006 -> 03:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> OMG, the defense of OG is sickening. The arguments made for him are flawed. 16 pages of this? Defense? Arguments made? That is all you have? What is your argument against? Bring something more to the discussion than that crap. Bring an idea at least.

QUOTE(Steff @ Sep 6, 2006 -> 03:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I don't think most will deny he's got the skills... but it's not too far of a stretch to say that he sure is having trouble using them lately. I would still trust his skills and judgements on this team than anyone's on this message board. Fo' sho'.

QUOTE(AlexB2009 @ Sep 6, 2006 -> 03:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Clearly, an idiot doesn't see those things. Example: Ozzie Guillen. now provide me an example of how BA was picked on.

QUOTE(southsideirish71 @ Sep 6, 2006 -> 03:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Brady Clark, was available, can play CF, can leadoff, and is right handed. He would of been a good platoon guy to play in CF and also play in LF. He can leadoff, has a good OBP and hits for a decent average. Was Brady Clark traded? How do you know he was available? Because certain people said so. It is all speculation. You don't know for a fact that he was available. By the way, where did I say what you accused me of saying in your last post? QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Sep 6, 2006 -> 03:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Are we actually 100% certain he was available? Do we also know what sort of asking price he had? Honestly, you only can pay so much for a guy you'd use as a backup/platoon player. And I'm not totally sure if the Brewers even knew whether they were buying or selling at the deadline. Clark is one of the very few options that would have made sense, if Ozzie was so incredibly insistent on having platoons thorughout his outfield. I still think the easiest option would have just been to let Brian Anderson play CF and let Mack/Ozuna platoon in LF. I agree. Not a fan of Pods. I think I would have even tried Sweeney in LF. We would have at least had a very good defensive OF if nothing else. 2 rookies on a team going for a championship is a lot to ask, but it seems better than Pods out there every day.

QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Sep 6, 2006 -> 03:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> The one quote Ozzie has that makes no sense is when he says Anderson hasn't cost the Sox any games this season. If he hasn't cost the Sox any games why doesn't the Ozzeroo get on someone's ass who has? It doesn't look like he is getting on BAs ass. He sees how good BA can be and how much room he has for improvement. He is pushing him to get better. He wants him to go to winter ball to work on things and get better. I think this is a good thing. If he didn't think BA was a good player with the chance of being really good would he be saying these things? I highly doubt it. I would like this if I was BA.

QUOTE(southsideirish71 @ Sep 6, 2006 -> 02:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> He cant hit, or what you really mean is the first 2 months he couldnt hit right. Review the splits and then tell me he cant hit. Now that he is hitting decently, you still put the butcher in CF. Good move. huh, where did I say what you are accusing me of saying? I said that we already have what was avaible on the market, which is why KW didn't go out and do anything. JEEZE! Stay with us here.

QUOTE(hammerhead johnson @ Sep 6, 2006 -> 02:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> No, but Kalapse does. ha ha, green please, green. QUOTE(fathom @ Sep 6, 2006 -> 02:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> No one better than a CF who can't judge a fly ball to save his life? Darren Lewis just rolled over in his rocking chair hearing that. But, we have a good/great defensive CF who can't hit. We have a decent hitting player trying to play CF. I don't believe there was a player available that could do both. That was the problem. Giving prospects or players up to place yourself in the same exact situation just didn't make sense.

QUOTE(hammerhead johnson @ Sep 6, 2006 -> 02:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> What about what you see, southsideirish? I don't see a problem at all. I see more problems with players not executing in certain game changing situations that cost us games than I do Ozzie's moves costing us games.

QUOTE(fathom @ Sep 6, 2006 -> 02:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> If Ozzie wanted a change made to the roster, KW would have found someone for him. On the bright side, we have less than a month with this current personnel. I know everyone thinks I get on Ozzie for every little thing. Personally, I don't believe I do. If I see a game last night where he puts the team in position to win, then that falls on the team and their execution. I actually thought he managed a great game last night, and he made the proper subs in the 8th inning and even tried a hit-and-run. I don't believe there was anyone better. That was the problem.

QUOTE(hammerhead johnson @ Sep 6, 2006 -> 02:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> There are stupid baseball players, you know. We see them every day. But I have already conceded that Ozzie is a natural born leader. He just doesn't have the baseball smarts to supplement his leadership qualities. That is it, point blank. He doesn't have the baseball smarts? I have seen and heard differently from some of the "smartest" baseball managers. Tony LaRussa, Bobby Cox, and Jack McKeon have all stated he has a great baseball mind. I think I will take their word over yours. Sorry. QUOTE(hammerhead johnson @ Sep 6, 2006 -> 02:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Yeah, you have to be a leader of men. I thought that I already conceded that? Don't worry, it will register. You'll see the difference by the time this thread gets to page 30. It takes more than that too. Once you hop back in your time machine you will be able to read the whole post and read exactly what I stated. So you have more baseball smarts than Ozzie Guillen?

QUOTE(fathom @ Sep 6, 2006 -> 02:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Cora doesn't deserve a job, end of story. You mention the point about knowing limitations, and as you see by my sig, that's my #1 rule of managing. I'm sorry, but continuing to put Mackowiak out in CF isn't putting your team in the best position to succeed. Intentionally walking M. Cuddyer to get to J. Morneau isn't putting your team in the best position to succeed. Neal Cotts was in a stretch where he couldn't retire a lefty to save his life. So what does Ozzie do? He bring in Cotts in huge situations to face the dangerous Morneau. Those results were predictable. I agree with Mack and that situation with Cotts. Mack never should have been placed in CF. However, I think KW could have done something to get us a better CF if this was a problem. Ozzie must have felt like he was helping BA mentally. That is the only thing I can think of. He must have seen something in him from one day to the next and must have been trying to place him in position to succeed and get a positive mental approach going. That is the only excuse I can see for that. Cotts was struggling and then he places him in that situation? I didn't understand that. That was a bad move. QUOTE(hammerhead johnson @ Sep 6, 2006 -> 02:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> We watch the games, we can review game film, we can keep up with the rest of the league, we can research splits, etc. I know what all of the players on the Sox are capable of. Does Ozzie? That is what I'd like to know. . I'm sure he does. Just because we do, we can manage this team and make better decisions? Impossible. You and I and everyone here has no idea what this team is actually going through. Ozzie knows better than anyone here does. It goes waaaaay beyond what you see on film and games and what research we do time machine boy. You don't have a feel for the team or each and every game.

QUOTE(fathom @ Sep 6, 2006 -> 02:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> How do you know how good of a baseball man anyone on this board is though? Again, I'm not saying myself or any particular person knows more about baseball than Ozzie Guillen. I've just never been a fan of the argument "if you know so much about baseball, then why aren't you a manager". Good stuff though southside, I appreciate a good debate. No one here has ever done it. Ever. Managing little league and HS doesn't count. I think I know some baseball and I played through college, however I could never manage from this seat and tell what is right or wrong. I know situations, sure. I know what to do and what you should do during situations in a game. But that is not what makes you a good manager. You have to get a feel for your team. You have to be there day in and day out. You have to know your players and their limitations and how they are feeling at a given time. A lot more goes into any given situation than just knowing the percentages of what to do. Plus I would place more blame on Joey Cora than Ozzie. Anyone that is going to send a huffing and puffing Paul Konerko around third base to score when the cut off man has the ball as he is rounding third base is a moron to me. I'm just sayin'. QUOTE(fathom @ Sep 6, 2006 -> 02:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Juan Pierre has been busting his ass over the past few months (salary drive), and he's been playing like the way we'd love to have Pods play still. I couldn't agree with you more that this is a lame bunch of players. Paul Konerko is my favorite Sox player ever, but his actions as a captain have been disappointing. T. Hunter is saying how the Twins are TOO amped up to play the Sox. Meanwhile, PK keeps saying that each game isn't important, as there's still a lot of time left this year. I don't believe PK when he says those things do you? I don't think that is how they really feel. Plus PK has never seeemed like the rah rah captain type to me. Torri Hunter is that type of outspoken excitable player. PK isn't. Juan Pierre or Scott Podsednik? Please there is no comparison. I will take Pierre any day of the week.

QUOTE(fathom @ Sep 6, 2006 -> 02:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I will sadly state that the Cubs have played with more intensity during the 2nd half of the season than the Sox. Of course, they have no pressure on them, and have a roster full of rookies who will always show a little more spark than veterans. There's no excuse for this Sox team to be 5 or 6 games under .500 since the ASB, especially because they've had really no significant injuries this season. How do you know how good of a baseball man anyone on this board is though? Again, I'm not saying myself or any particular person knows more about baseball than Ozzie Guillen. I've just never been a fan of the argument "if you know so much about baseball, then why aren't you a manager". Good stuff though southside, I appreciate a good debate. Ha ha ha. I couldn't get past your first statement without laughing. I will read the rest later. If that really is the case then I blame the players. The players can't get intense enough to play every single meaningful game to get their asses in the playoffs? That is a lousy bunch of players then. I hardly blame the manager. That is a f***ing lame ass bunch of players.

QUOTE(fathom @ Sep 6, 2006 -> 02:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Ozzie had a great feel for the 2005 team, as he almost always put us in a great position to win (except for his use of Marte and Timo). His feel for the 2006 team is pathetic though, and I'm not saying that I could do a better job, but it's pretty naive to say that no person could do anything to help this team besides Ozzie. We're almost 140 games into the season, and Ozzie is making the same mistakes he was during the first week of the season. I will gladly state that he's been the worst manager in baseball during the 2nd half of the season. Where did I say no other person besides Ozzie? I said any White Sox fan. Now if there is a professional manager that is also a White Sox fan, then that is a possibilty. No person posting on this board could. That is fact. Many things can not even be blamed on Ozzie. I can't blame Ozzie for players striking out or groudning into double plays or hitting pop ups in key situations. I can't blame him for blowing late inning leads. I don't see other teams play, but he has not been the worst. He hasn't been as bad as Baker. He hasn't been as bad as that jamoke in Toronto. QUOTE(hammerhead johnson @ Sep 6, 2006 -> 02:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Ozzie is a natural born leader, but that doesn't mean that he's a smart baseball man. Can you see the difference? There are thousands of Sox fans who are capable of making better baseball decisions than Ozzie, but that doesn't mean that they are charismatic enough to lead men into battle. It's like you hopped in your time machine and just arrived here last week. This ain't the 1940s. We have computers and DVDRs and s*** like that. We can see plenty, but we're not leaders of men. That's the difference. No there are not thousands of Sox fans who are capable of making better baseball decisions than Ozzie. It makes you able to manage a team that you don't even know just because you see things on TV and computers? That is asinine. Get back in your time machine.

QUOTE(fathom @ Sep 6, 2006 -> 01:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> This argument loses validity when Mackowiak continues to get put in CF. And you are saying a fan could do a better job and has a better feel for this team than Ozzie does? Because THAT is the argument. Ozzie won a world championship with the White Sox for the first time in 80+ years and fans think they know this team better than he does? Give me an f'n break. You may think you do, but I really doubt you do. There is not one single Chicago White Sox fan that could do a better job with this team. QUOTE(beautox @ Sep 6, 2006 -> 01:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> *correction* ARod went 1-15 with 10K between aug 25-27th against LAA That is a week? Looks like 3 days to me. QUOTE(Hideaway Lights @ Sep 6, 2006 -> 01:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> People are really overreacting to this article Anderson has had a better second half, but even if he is hitting .278 for the second half, that's still not something we should have to live with automatically, especially considering his second half OPS is .749, which is ATROCIOUS for an outfielder. He is also not great at stealing bases. I can't even count the number of times he has been sent with two outs and podsednik up to get a RISP and he's been thrown out by a mile. He's under .500 in terms of SB/SBA. I think Ozzie's point is that he's a mediocre hitter, a mediocre slugger and a mediocre basestealer, and even though he's improved in the second half he cannot rest on those laurels and expect a job to be handed to him next season. Anderson has a lot of work ahead of him, and I think that was the point. Is he a great defender? Sure. His overall offensive game still leaves a lot to be desired. He is still taking bad swings at balls, and he is still not getting good jumps on SB attempts. If I were Ozzie, and I had caught wind that Anderson was considering skipping out of winter ball, I would send the same message. Where are the sources that indicate Anderson has said all along that he was going to winter ball despite what Ozzie thinks? I completely agree. I don't see what everyone is talking about or why they are mad at Ozzie. What did he say? What are you people so pissed off at? I really don't understand. If BA truly did not want to go to winter ball and work, I would be upset with that. If he doesn't go and get work in and try to get better I will not like it at all. He has a lot of tools. He can be a very good player if he works at it.

QUOTE(witesoxfan @ Sep 6, 2006 -> 01:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Uhhh... So instead of doing something logical like posting a 2 month span of OPS, I have to find just one week. Damn, I guess my thinking is just stupid I don't have the time, nor the care, to find a 1 week time period. I found a 2 month time period, and I think that should be plenty suitable, but if not, you win. Oh, so you butted into an argument that maybe you shouldn't have then. I clearly stated one week because that is what was mentioned to begin with. 1 week was always stated. I didn't say you were stupid, but if the shoe fits...... That is up to you if you want to find it or not. YOu possibly should not have jumped into the argument if you didn't want to provide the argued data.

QUOTE(witesoxfan @ Sep 6, 2006 -> 01:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> LOL Didn't Kalapse just point out ARod's second stint in the big leagues, where he put up a .647 OPS? How about ARod's first callup, when he put up an OPS of .445? I'm pretty sure I could probably find a case. LOL That is a one week portion? ok, now find me a one week portion of ARod's career where it was worse than any one week portion of BAs career. Thank you. I could have swore I wrote 1 week. Right? Let's just be consistent here.

QUOTE(RockRaines @ Sep 6, 2006 -> 01:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> How am I drinking the kool aid? A-row wouldnt have produced much better than BA this year. He basically contributes to about .1 percent of what is wrong with this team. If anything, his fielding has overcome alot of our shortcomings in the past several weeks. Garland is obviously more valuable, but that is comparing apples and oranges IMO. I agree. AROW is not better than BA. I wil take BA over AROW every single time. However, I will take AROW over Scott Pods, but I don't think Pods lands us Thome, I am not sure about that though.