kapkomet

QUOTE(lostfan @ Mar 19, 2008 -> 07:02 PM) Now that I think I get your point of view, I agree. I would make the case that they're misunderstood but I'm convinced that Jackson and Sharpton are in it for Jackson and Sharpton and that's the only reason they do anything. They aren't leaders, they're opportunists. Woohoo! You go! I can't stand these two, and it's not because of their race.

QUOTE(DrunkBomber @ Mar 19, 2008 -> 07:01 PM) I wasnt trying to compare Obama to those people. I was just saying that those types of people are one of the biggest hurdles to accomplishing the goals that were the point of the speech. Mkay. That I 100% agree with.

QUOTE(southsider2k5 @ Mar 19, 2008 -> 03:23 PM) Or Paul McCartney needs the money to pay for his divorce... They shoulda had him on. I heard him live at some BBC event last week - he's starting to lose it a little - a remarkable difference then two years ago in terms of the quality of his voice. Kinda sad.

QUOTE(DrunkBomber @ Mar 19, 2008 -> 06:51 PM) What in your opinion is valuable to the conversation? When ever this issue is discussed it always goes the same route, public schools, poverty etc. Obama did do one thing which was acknowledge we are at a stalemate about this topic and there are underlying issues that are too taboo to discuss so people are scared to. Im not trying to come off as racist or offend anyone myself. Im trying to clear the air. The things Ive talked about are things that have always bothered me and I think if nobody ever discusses the issues they will never be resolved. I dont know where youre coming from and you dont know where Im coming from and I think once people learn to understand others that are different from them is the first step in accomplishing this goal. Im sure there are lots of things that people of every race or religion dont understand or like about other races or religions but if everyone is too scared to ask or talk about it the barrier will always be there. We can all sit here and discuss lack of funding for public schools and whatever else but even though I disagree with what Obama said, I do agree with the idea of trying to end the racial tension that has always existed that people are scared to confront because they dont want to be labeled a racist or bigot. And again, class has much more to do with the divides that exist then does race. It's because poverty exists in predominately "minority" races... which is where the race comes back to bite us of all socio-economic classes.

QUOTE(DrunkBomber @ Mar 19, 2008 -> 06:26 PM) I dont need a second interpretation of what Obama said in his speech. He didnt say anything. All he did was acknowledge problems and tried to play both ends of the spectrum. If you want to compare this speech to a historical event I would compare it to Houdini making an elephant disappear in a crowded room before comparing it to anything MLK said. The man is surrounded by racists, including his wife, and that reflects upon him no matter how he tries to spin it. He chose to go down this path and bring this discussion back so he better be able to back it up. He might have said he could see why people would be angry about affirmative action but he didnt say he was going to do anything to be apart of the solution. I dont want to hear anything about race from this guy in terms of knocking down barriers until the double standard is eliminated. With idiots like Jesse Jackson, Al Sarpton and even Pastor Wright being able to spew their hate and promote racism without consequence in this country nothing is going to get accomplished. I can safely say that Obama is nothing like Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton and even Pastor Wright. Now, to what extent he can "do something about it" is debateable. The reason that Jesse and Al are (closet) pissed off at Obama is because he's doing this without their help. Think about it.

*YAWN* s***, we get it. She lies, people dies. Or something.

QUOTE(Athomeboy_2000 @ Mar 19, 2008 -> 05:08 PM) It just keep coming... http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/200.../19/785983.aspx Nice drive by media work. Now that Limbaugh's on board for the Hillary-will-eat-Barack-Obama-up-so-we-don't-have-to-tour, all of a sudden crap starts leaking? What a joke.

QUOTE(Athomeboy_2000 @ Mar 19, 2008 -> 12:42 PM) Hillary's Nasty Pastorate GMAB. Facist bible thumpers and Hillary Clinton unite to explain UFO sightings!

QUOTE(southsider2k5 @ Mar 18, 2008 -> 09:11 PM) The two Davids were the big highlights tonight. Other than that, there were some weird arrangements. I thought they all just plain sucked last night. It was one of the worse AI's this season for sure.

I'm glad to see the rays of sunshine that is getting blown out of people's asses in this thread. Let's just move the damn team to Tampa and get it over with, since they suck so bad in March. Oh wait a minute, that was almost tried once before... Granted, it's not totally rosey, but it's certainly not the "let's blow everything up", yet. We can at least wait until May 1 for that, can't we?

QUOTE(lostfan @ Mar 18, 2008 -> 10:33 PM) I'm mixed (you guys all probably figured I was black so I never bothered to mention it, I figured my own race was irrelevant though) and to get where I'm at, quite honestly, no white person has ever "held me back." And to be honest I've never had an N-bomb dropped to my face... anonymous morons on the Internet notwithstanding. The number of white racists I've met is actually pretty small, and I've even lived in the South. But at the same time I haven't gotten a thing because of affirmative action, everything I've gotten is on my own. I say all this to say I try to go out of my way not to paint with that "white people" brush because all it does is divide and turn people off, and shut ears. I only speak about race in a historical context and if I talk about today it's on a "macro" type level. So, as far as what you're saying here, I agree with you. And your point of view is shared with most "minorities"... thank goodness. It's the vocal "minority" (pardon the pun) that causes trouble.

QUOTE(lostfan @ Mar 18, 2008 -> 10:25 PM) Slavery turned to Jim Crow laws which led to 100 years of direct oppression which did not formally end until it was forced to the Civil Rights era which was the beginning of the end of it all, but certainly not the end... all of which has set back the black race as a whole back decades and decades from where it could've or should've progressed to. And yeah, the people that did this were white, and they lived in America. Maybe I should clarify... the root of the divide between white and black in this country comes from slavery. Right. I agree with that. But I think it's used by quite a few African-Americans as a crutch to inflict racial divides (on that side), which is where we get back into Wright and his speeches about "rich white folks". It's nice to blame "White America" but in reality, everyone has a chance if they want it. It's all on whether you want to be a victim.

QUOTE(DrunkBomber @ Mar 18, 2008 -> 10:20 PM) Slavery was also started before the US existed. Slavery has nothing to do with anyone alive and and is used as a cop out. Obama is pimping a great idea hypothetically but its not gonna change in the near future. If he wants to get rid of the racial divide its going to take more than a speech. Things like affirmative action and the Rooney rule should be immediately terminated because that isnt equality. Maybe Obama can sit down with the individual who didnt get into Princeton because of the spot that was reserved for affirmative action and then he can explain ending the racial divide and equality to that person. To know what route his wife had to go to get into school BECAUSE of the color of her skin instead of qualification and then to see her senior thesis and to hear her say this is the first time shes been proud of the US shows a great deal of lack of appreciation for the system that got her into college. Even the thought of a 1% possibility that he may deep down harness similar thoughts to the people close to him in terms of race terrifies me that he might get into office. Good post.

QUOTE(lostfan @ Mar 18, 2008 -> 10:02 PM) Obama's not Mexican, and didn't have a Mexican pastor saying inflammatory things. And furthermore, slavery was around for centuries before illegal immigration was a problem. Hence "original." The effects still linger to this day, for a lot of different reasons. Read my response to what you highlighted, not what race Obama is. You said "the root of our social problems come from slavery"... that's not true, in my opinion. Now what you're trying to turn this into is [racism is] "the root of our social problems" and that's not true either. And "white people" started racism? That's ... um... a little conceited, to put it gently. (note, I can't remember if you said that originally, lostfan... I'm tired... but whoever said it, I stand by my point. G'night y'all... tommorrow's another debateful day... )

QUOTE(lostfan @ Mar 18, 2008 -> 09:55 PM) Dude, seriously you are REALLY making something out of nothing with the "original sin" comment. Focus less on the specific words used in an almost 40-minute speech and focus more on what he was actually saying - the root of all of our social problems today come from slavery. This should pretty much be common knowledge. BTW invading Iraq had nothing to do with stemming the tide of radical Islam ala Afghanistan but that is a whole other argument. Um... no. What does that have to do with, say, immigration? We aren't "enslaving" Mexicans, are we? Health care, now we're shunning all but the "rich white folks", right? Anyway, I digress. The "original sin" comment, Alpha, wasn't meant in a "religious context"... so I don't agree with that premise. But, I do think that it's pretty good rhetoric to create a racial divide, which was his point.

QUOTE(whitesoxfan101 @ Mar 18, 2008 -> 09:24 PM) I still think this pastor is going to get him killed in Pennsylvania with all the white, blue collar votes, however his speech today was very good. To see a politician not throw somebody who caused him trouble under the bus, openly talk about race, and actually seem genuine and honest was so shocking that I am not even sure how to react to it. I still don't agree with much of any of what he says politically, but he did a great job today on what is an ignored issue. The whack job far righties (as seen in this thread) are going to react negatively, but one thing that is for sure is people on the far right politically have no idea of what they speak when it comes to race (that comment will get me flamed, but sorry, it's the truth) so that's not all that relevant. This whole thing might turn out to be a blessing in disguise for him in the sense that Obama was forced to actually say what he thinks on a major issue (race) instead of saying blah blah blah I have hope, and I was pleasantly surprised by what I heard today. On a side note though, the fact that the press stood and applauded after the speech bothers me. I know these people have agendas and all, but that's ridiculous. Whatever happened to no cheering in the press box? Oh really? So, I consider myself more of a "righty" then a "lefty" and now, I have no idea of what I speak in regards to race? Nice broad brush... and it's bulls***.

QUOTE(Mplssoxfan @ Mar 18, 2008 -> 05:51 PM) Are too an Obama-bot! If you read about page 7 of this thread (without me even really thinking about it) I gave his speech in a more succinct way.

QUOTE(Alpha Dog @ Mar 18, 2008 -> 05:24 PM) But he is being vague. And spinning. 20 years in this church, and he has NEVER heard him utter these things? This was his spiritual advisor, the man who brought him to God, the man who married him and his wife. You may be bowing to his holiness, but I find that very hard to believe that he has never heard these things before. That, is spin. And his statement "Did I know him to be an occasionally fierce critic of American domestic and foreign policy?” Obama said. “Of course. Did I ever hear him make remarks that could be considered controversial while I sat in church? Yes.." What about the clips played 'could be' controversial? They ARE controversial. If he was to be as frank as you gushed about, maybe he could have admitted that they WERE controversial, bad, etc. See my post, Alpha. He didn't say that AT ALL. And I'm not an Obama-bot. The stupidity of this is mind-boggling. (nevermind... you actually quoted it... but it's definitely getting twisted around. To some, those remarks aren't controversial, sadly enough.)

QUOTE(NorthSideSox72 @ Mar 18, 2008 -> 05:20 PM) Its not a big deal, except that some people want to make it one. These are the people who have no interest in what Obama was trying to get across - they are more interested in dissecting the individual words to death, trying to find something to criticize. And if I recall, actually, he said in the speech he HAD been there when he'd said some incindiary things. He admitted it.

QUOTE(NorthSideSox72 @ Mar 18, 2008 -> 05:16 PM) I quoted two posts, referring to both. Angela's Oreo post, and Mr. G's hyperbole. But I guess CNN had some expert saying this was the case. Therefore it must be true. Sorry, Mr. G, I take it back. I know how you love your CNN! Yea, oops. I'm there now.

What is the big deal? Maybe I'm missing something here. Obama's claiming that he's never been there when Wright said something like this that's rhetoric? So what? He's heard it, his speech today says he has, but who cares whether or not he was attending when things like this were said? Obama hasn't been at that church for at least his time in office if I had to guess, right? What's the big deal here?

QUOTE(Athomeboy_2000 @ Mar 18, 2008 -> 04:59 PM) FOX is already beginning the spin. Even though he said he never heard any racist / anti-america comments (even though he said he wasnt present at the SPECIFIC comments brought up over the weekend) he is now admitting to having heard them (which he said he didnt) who is HE? Obama?

QUOTE(NorthSideSox72 @ Mar 18, 2008 -> 04:55 PM) This thread WAS civilized. There is no need to call anyone an "oreo", nor is there any reason for the laughable hyperbole that will only serve to enflame people. Tone it down please, lest other actions become necessary. Nevermind...

QUOTE(jackie hayes @ Mar 18, 2008 -> 04:17 PM) I don't think it has anything to do with "street cred", and I don't think the media would lash out. I just think it will sound hollow. It's a copycat move, it's weak and desperate. And she's not a very good speaker, anyway. I've never, ever seen her speak even half as well as what I watched today. Obama's the inspirational candidate, Clinton's the practical one. If she tries to become inspirational, she'll fail. She just doesn't have that ability. Right on. I just posted the same sort of thing, a little differently, though.

QUOTE(jackie hayes @ Mar 18, 2008 -> 04:11 PM) You have to wonder what Clinton will do. She claims to have not watched the speech yet, which strikes me as a mistake. She also may make her own speech: which strikes me as an even bigger mistake. http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2008/03/18/po...ry3948776.shtml Add in the news that Florida apparently won't revote, and Hillary's all of a sudden much worse off than yesterday. Which I didn't really think possible, but there it is. She is now a follower... which falls right into the Obama campaign's playbook. I'll tell you, what you have witnessed over the last four days is nothing short of brilliant from Obama's campaign. It's almost like they wanted the flames of his pastor "fanned" so he could make this speech. Think about it. It falls right in line with him "taking back control" in basically three days time. Pretty interesting stuff, and now Hillary's following along.