Soxbadger

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ May 14, 2013 -> 05:09 PM) Yes, that was a mating gathering. I posted it to show that your claims that culture doesn't determine what us found to be attractive are nonsense. Yet science agrees with me. Strange. Maybe its because your video proved nothing, and the men who were selected were likely more "symmetrical" and thus actually proving my point. But that would require you to actually do the research and learn about biology/evolution, instead of just telling me about how no one ever judges men, and then posting a video of women judging men. Science is bad!

You just seemingly havent done enough research into this subject. Most scientists would agree that symmetry is preferred. You are arguing that fat/thin etc make beauty, which they dont. Symmetry does. http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/20...y-symmetry.html You just keep parroting that men arent judged by sexuality. What world do you live in? But what do all these scientists know, you can properly spell, so you must be smarter than all of them. OMG science, voodoo voodoo. lol

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ May 14, 2013 -> 04:57 PM) I'm not sure anyone understands 13 pages of this argument to be honest. lol I actually was just thinking that. To use a game phrase, that mother is just qqing at this point.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ May 14, 2013 -> 04:39 PM) Here's a pretty good example of our particular culture's sexual ideals and mores not being some genetic trait Im not sure you understand the argument anymore. What you just showed is evidence that people judge regardless of media, etc. That it is natural for humans to judge our mates. I swear to god one of the captions was "That man is handsome" Which just proves looks matter, no matter how Disney dresses up a princess. (edit) Yep minute 1:21 "That man is really handsome"

You keep presuming cultural, when likely at the time it was biological. Before the agricultural revolution, the idea mate would be a lot different than the ideal mate today. Plumpness has been considered a sign of wealth, because at certain points in human history, you had to have money to be fat. I cant speak for anyone else, but my personal preferences cant be cultural. I like cute girls with brown hair. How is that cultural? What makes me like a Mila Kunis, while others prefer Kate Upton? The answer isnt culture, its not that "Oh I liked Kelly Kapowski when I was young so now I like Mila", because even back then, something drew me to X type over Y type. Im not even going to get into your word nonsense. Gender/Sex it really doesnt matter. They are interchangeable, citing a blog wont change the definition: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gender a : sex The rest is your opinion. Im friends with a disproportionate amount of girls, they judge men as much as I judge women. There is no difference between us, except for I want to do girls and they want to do guys. When they go out, they look at guys the same way I look at girls. We are the same, when people actually start accepting that women can be like men, that they can be sexual monsters who are just out for their own pleasure, then we can start having gender equality. But as long as certain people view women with rose colored glasses, like little girls who giggle at the thought of sex, they will always be second class. You keep saying society this, society that. Guess what, SOCIETY IS MEN AND WOMEN. Im not making a strawman, its the natural inference from your argument. Women need more protection because they are not strong enough to stand up against society, television, the boogeyman without our help. I get it, I just dont agree with it. I think women are the same as me. Which is a compliment.

No the whole problem is you keep thinking that Im somehow talking about WOMEN, when Im talking about HUMANS. I cant control that I am an animal that evolved over millions of years. I can not control that I am biologically designed to prefer certain traits in females, some of them being aesthetics. Even though I am educated, even though I am fully conscious of these things, when I see a potential mate, my brain is making decisions based on biology. Gender is absolutely biological. I dont know what "normal" is, Im not in the business of judging normal and abnormal. I hate to say it, but most of the world is driven by sex and mating. This isnt about women, I have no idea why you keep finding it necessary to put it in that box. Men and women are driven by sex and mating. Whether its I want to go to a good college so I can get a good job to get hot girls, whether its I want to play football to get girls, make money to get girls, basically all of society is driven by sex and mating. I guess the main problem is you keep trying to make women and men different, where as I just think of them as the same, humans/people. Interesting the champion of women's rights, is the one who keeps making women out to be different.

AKA Try and reinvent evolution. Oh Darwin, who knew that it would be so simple to entirely change how basically every single animal chooses a mate. Not to mention, it really doesnt matter. Whether its beauty, brains, strength, etc, there will always be haves and have nots in society. Crimson, Where have I said people cant say its a stupid change? I just think its stupid to try and use image issues as a reason to try and force the change. If Disney wants to ruin a character, Disney can do it. Just like if Game of Thrones wants to ruin a character, they can do it. If I dont like it, I can find another tv show. And if the parents dont like it, why dont they stop letting their children watch Disney? No one is forcing anyone to buy Disney s***. Its entirely your choice.

10 little girls are playing Disney Princess dress up. Which one of them gets told they are Merida and then made fun of? She doesnt have to be an outcast, but children are cruel and mean, they will take advantage of any difference. If Peter Pan was going to become a "Disney Prince" it would be laughable to suggest he could do it in his tights. He would obviously have to "grow up". And I have no problem if you want to argue that the character makes no sense. That what Disney is doing is just completely a money grab and a way to take advantage of parents/children by selling them more products. That is completely reasonable. But again, this is Disney's character. If they want to ruin it, destroy it, do whatever, they can. But they dont just do these things on a whim, they do it because they believe it will make them money. And ultimately, that is the consumer to blame. Because if people wanted ugly princesses in rags, I guarantee you that Disney would be selling you them. Disney doesnt care, they just want your money.

QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ May 14, 2013 -> 03:18 PM) They are having a celebration to add her to the official list of Princesses, which is why they did the change. So essentially she is being "promoted" Right. She will now appear in Disney Princess tv shows, Disney Princess movies, Disney Princess live shows. She will be on t-shirts with Disney Princess. My honest belief, is that someone in Disney thought that people would complain that the "strong" princess wasnt as pretty, and thus they tried to make her fit more with the "mean girls." I mean what is better, the 1 girl who is strong and bold, is a complete outcast because she looks different? Or the 1 girl who is strong and bold, looks good when she wants to, showing that you can be beautiful and brave. No matter what Disney does, I can spin it as good or bad.

QUOTE (CrimsonWeltall @ May 14, 2013 -> 03:10 PM) Part of the theme of that movie was...yeah you can. And she's not really being promoted. Her character was a princess, in a movie owned by Disney. I think that makes her a Disney Princess. Well not according to Disney. Disney has certain "princesses" that walk around the park and do princess things. They sell princess clothes that only include those princesses. They have a specific site for disney princesses and it is limited to the ones that they deem worthy. Whether you agree, disagree, think thats stupid, its Disney's brand and its their way of making money. http://disney.wikia.com/wiki/Disney_Princess This is entirely marketing and making money. You now can sell 2 versions of Merida. You have the movie version and then the Princess version. Its just about money. And people have been complaining about Disney Princess since 2006, saying it negatively impacts girls image, the usual argument was "damsels in distress."

Steve, Well she is being "promoted" to a Disney princess. And all of them wear elegant attire, so they had to fancy her up. You cant sell princess if the girl looks like she is dressed as a handmaiden.

QUOTE (illinilaw08 @ May 14, 2013 -> 02:29 PM) Right. It may. Pages ago, you were arguing that if it impacts girls, it must impact boys in the same way. And that argument said that media portrayal would drive little boys to become steroid users. My argument throughout has been that the depiction of male leads is very, very different than female leads. That bulimia and anorexia hit young women at a rate 9x that of males. And that the evidence on the steroid usage was not broken down by gender other than to say that 1 in 3 high school boys admitted using protein shakes to 1 in 5 females. Parents have a huge role. But so do the people your kids see on tv. That's why, coaching and parenting be damned, I thought I should hit a baseball out on my front foot, because that's what Frank Thomas did. Environment plays a huge role. Bullying plays a huge role. But if you can't see that there is a difference in the way that women and men are portrayed in the media, you are being willfully blind. And if you can't see that a correlation may exist between that portrayal and higher incidences of bulimia and anorexia, I don't know what to say. I never argued that it has to impact them the same way. I argued if you are upset about how girls are being portrayed because it may have a negative impact on them, you should be upset at how boys are being portrayed. I dont believe I ever once indicated that it was on the same magnitude. I used steroids as an example because someone implied that image issues were female only, I wanted to provide evidence that it happens to boys as well. I never said there wasnt a difference. I simply have said that if you are upset about how a company is potentially negatively impacting children, you (imo) should care about both boys and girls, not just girls. Because if you only complain about the girls, its (imo) hypocritical. Here is my first comment: My second: I never was discussing whether it happens more/less in women, just that its pretty hilarious that no one ever brings it up about men.

QUOTE (illinilaw08 @ May 14, 2013 -> 02:18 PM) Yeah, it's not just the "ideal" female form that causes healthy girls to have bulimia and anorexia, but they certainly play a role. Why does it happen to women at a rate 9x that of men? I dont know, but sometimes genetically women and men are different, and for all I know women are predisposed to that mental condition. Depression is 2x as common in women. Men are 3x as likely to have an antisocial personality disorder. Is that the media, is it biology, is it 20,000 of human evolution, is it cultural? I have no clue. (saw a typo, made the correction before the spelling police return)

QUOTE (illinilaw08 @ May 14, 2013 -> 02:11 PM) http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/anorexia/...DSECTION=causes Per the Mayo Clinic, among other things, "Modern Western culture emphasizes thinness. The media are splashed with images of thin models and actors. Success and worth are often equated with being thin. Peer pressure may help fuel the desire to be thin, particularly among young girls." It MAY. There is no substantial evidence to prove that it does. The reality is that a parents role/influence is magnitudes more important than what a child sees on tv. And that mother would be better suited speaking to her child and explaining why that child is special for who they are, as opposed to trying to argue that somehow the tv needs to be changed. I guess I just dont start burning effigies unless Im given real evidence of a crime.

QUOTE (iamshack @ May 14, 2013 -> 02:03 PM) You're talking about waifish fashion models now though...that is not the only media ideal...there are all kinds of women on tv now that are healthy but thin looking... You are trying to hit a moving target it wont happen. There are tons of plausible explanations for why anorexia/bulimia exist entirely independent of media culture. If we actually look at what people who treat the disorder say: http://health.usnews.com/health-news/famil...ds-keeps-rising Its pretty much like drugs, blame the media. If only the media didnt glorify drug use, no one would use drugs.

Illini, First we need to separate the modeling. Models are abnormal. Most actresses are not model thin. Many people dont even find that thin attractive. It just happens that clothing designers (who strangely arent the macho men that seem to scare people at night) are fascinated with thin girls that look like young boys... Im not sure I need to explain that one further. Part of the problem with self image issues is that they are created by an individual. It doesnt matter if Im in fact thin, it matters what I think. There is just simply no evidence to suggest that what Disney or any media company is doing, is having a dramatic impact on eating disorder rates. here is an old British study: http://bjp.rcpsych.org/content/186/2/132.full.pdf Youll notice Anorexia stays constant, while bulimia peaks and then falls. I guess my biggest issue is that there really is very little evidence that the media has any actual influence on the rate of these disorders. Mental disorders are about an individual. The most beautiful girl in the world can have an eating disorder. It doesnt matter what the tv tells her, it doesnt matter what people tell her, it matters what she thinks. That is why many very thin girls have anorexia and bulimia, because its not based on reason, its based on a warped mental image. If you want to stop bulimia and anorexia, you are likely to have more success by targeting bullies, etc and trying to prevent children from getting a mental scar early, than you would by yelling about the image Disney portrays.

QUOTE (iamshack @ May 14, 2013 -> 12:59 PM) Here you go again, flexing your intellectual muscles. To quote one of my favorite movie characters, I bet you feel strong and good. Its the last defense of a beaten internet poster. Youre (haha intentional) argument is better than mine, but you dont know how to spell "your" so you are dumb! Doesnt work that way in real life, ideas count, spelling doesnt.

Illini, To the best of my knowledge Disney isnt portraying an princess with an eating issue. I dont know if there is an actual correlation between Disney princesses and the eating disorders. What I can say is that if you are going to argue that the media can impact children negatively and cause disorders, that we should be honest and admit that it likely affects boys and girls equally. Unless of course we are arguing that girls are somehow different than boys and therefore are more susceptible to the media. But I dont believe that, I think boys and girls are equal.

QUOTE (iamshack @ May 14, 2013 -> 12:56 PM) See, this is what I love about you...you constantly rip on all the big bad wolves, meanwhile, you play that very role in here with your intellectual elitism. Its not very becoming either. I find anyone who does that instantly not credible.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ May 14, 2013 -> 12:54 PM) You're assuming EVERY boy is taking steroids to look more attractive or be more confident....or to pick up girls. What about all those kids who want to bulk up for weightlifting, for playing football or a specific sport? You can spin it as much as you like that the goal of every boy who is taking steroid is sexually-related, but if you're familiar with them, you also know they will destroy your ability to get an erection (see Anthony Mackie's character in PAIN & GAIN)...the irony of them making you more physically potent looking but sexually impotent. Well it goes hand in hand. Why do people weightlift, play football? To get girls/boys. Its all the same.

QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ May 14, 2013 -> 12:49 PM) No one would deny that (1) men do it more often and (2) men are more upfront/open about it. But guys are judged all the time and to pretend otherwise is just stupid. Women do it all the time, they just dont do it as overtly. Its a pretty big assumption that its male driven, it actually may be more female driven. I think there are some studies that suggest females are harder on other females about looks than men are about other men. That would mean you need to make women more appealing because both sides judge. Now i cant find the evidence that quick, but it is something I do recall.

QUOTE (illinilaw08 @ May 14, 2013 -> 12:48 PM) Will you, perhaps, concede that bulimia and anorexia are a major helath issue amongst high school girls and that it derives from a standard that makes healthy girls think they are unattractive if they aren't model thin? And that popular culture helps to push an unhelathy standard for women? Absolutely. Ive never said anything contrary. Those are major issues. I just think its hypocritical to scream about how girls are portrayed and not even mention how boys are portrayed. That is my entire argument, that if you are going to b**** at Disney, b**** at them about ALL CHARACTERS, not just female. That seems pretty reasonable to me.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ May 14, 2013 -> 12:45 PM) I saw about 40 separate lines, not any paragraphs. I wasn't going to take the time to break that s*** up. If you actually condense it to a readable paragraph I might! It was your post. I just put in responses. So any complaints should be towards you. I quoted, not my fault if you dont like your own writing.

Shack and Jenks, I wouldnt bother. Weve now just gone into "personal opinion". While some of us can be rationale and admit that EVERYONE is being constantly judged by attractiveness, other people have to make up some argument that "it happens more to women". I just posted evidence about how many boys take steroids due to image issues, but no one cares. Its just simply "PROTECT OUR INNOCENT DAUGHTERS". Screw that noise. Either we protect everyone (and contrary to certain people that includes boys), or we protect no one.

QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ May 14, 2013 -> 12:39 PM) Go to a bar on a Friday night. All the women judge men equally, right? They all talk to the fat uglies as much as the tall muscular guys, right? I wont hire pretty female lawyers. Why? Because I presume that they never have had to work hard and always have been given something. Who is going to stand up for their rights!?