Soxbadger

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ May 10, 2012 -> 01:30 PM) Option C would be to have some personal standards support neither. Right, you are trying to argue that the best position for gay people is to do nothing, which will result in them getting no rights. Do you not see how that is so backwards? I expect you will never vote again, so basically your voice will never be heard. If you prefer that, that is your call, but it just seems silly. (edit) Here is an example of your position: Im waiting on the side of the road because my car broke down. A car stops and offers to help, but the only reason he is offering to help is for self-gratification. I turn down his offer for help because I am looking for someone who only wants to help me out of kindness and does not want any reward. I guess its just better to sit there on the side of the road forever, then get help from someone else for the wrong reason?

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ May 10, 2012 -> 01:29 PM) Except when it was that marriage was only between a man and woman. And he admits he was wrong and he changed his mind. So what, have you never been wrong before, have you never changed your mind? Do you believe we have to stick to every single original position we ever take regardless if the facts or circumstances changed? Because its just so tiresome to care about flip-flopping, I dont care at all. Every politician is a flip flopper, probably every person in the world has flipped on a subject at one point. If you actual care to learn and educate yourself, you are bound to one day change your opinion. Thats not a bad thing, hell Ive always said one of the bravest things any President has done was George Bush Sr., when he raised taxes even though it went against his position. . It seems you want to live in an Utopian world where we have Philosopher Kings who run the US out of kindness instead of greed and self-motivation. That just isnt reality, and while it may be great to be idealistic, if you want results, you cant live in a dream.

Once again to recap, if you have 2 options: Option A- Flip flopping liar who does not support my position. Option B- Flip flopping liar who does support my position. The option is B, they are both flip flopping liars, so that being equal, you go with the person who has the BEST chance of doing what you hope for. In this instance, there is 0 chance Romney will support equality, so it just doesnt matter why Obama did it, because there isnt another legitimate option who is doing it for more altruistic reasons.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ May 10, 2012 -> 12:07 PM) If you are willing to lower yourself to "they have no standards, so why should I" level, that is fine. I'm not really interested. What are you even talking about? I have clearly supported gay marriage, I didnt do it to get money or to help my polling, I did it because I believe in equality. Where have I said "If they have no standards, why should I." Ive never even suggested such a position. Just more obscuring and smokescreen.

Jenks, Ha damn your edit hit exactly on the point I was making.

QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ May 10, 2012 -> 11:48 AM) But i'm not sure how you can't also look at Obama a little differently - someone without much of a backbone and who will whore himself out to win votes. What if you always looked at Obama and every other politician this way? It really doesnt change anything if that has been your perspective all a long. If he had a backbone and didnt whore himself out to win votes, he wouldnt have been President, he wouldnt have been a Senator, hed likely just be some random guy arguing on the internet like we do. I guess thats the part Kap seems to be missing, that I never trust or believe politicians in the first place. Or bah bah bah.

http://www.blackheartgoldpants.com/2012/5/...sconsin-edition Some joke Nike Combat uniforms, the link is to Wisconsin, but they also have Iowa, Indiana, Michigan, Nebraska.

In case anyone didnt get it, heres Barack's email: ------ Today, I was asked a direct question and gave a direct answer: I believe that same-sex couples should be allowed to marry. I hope you'll take a moment to watch the conversation, consider it, and weigh in yourself on behalf of marriage equality: http://my.democrats.org/Marriage I've always believed that gay and lesbian Americans should be treated fairly and equally. I was reluctant to use the term marriage because of the very powerful traditions it evokes. And I thought civil union laws that conferred legal rights upon gay and lesbian couples were a solution. But over the course of several years I've talked to friends and family about this. I've thought about members of my staff in long-term, committed, same-sex relationships who are raising kids together. Through our efforts to end the "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy, I've gotten to know some of the gay and lesbian troops who are serving our country with honor and distinction. What I've come to realize is that for loving, same-sex couples, the denial of marriage equality means that, in their eyes and the eyes of their children, they are still considered less than full citizens. Even at my own dinner table, when I look at Sasha and Malia, who have friends whose parents are same-sex couples, I know it wouldn't dawn on them that their friends' parents should be treated differently. So I decided it was time to affirm my personal belief that same-sex couples should be allowed to marry. I respect the beliefs of others, and the right of religious institutions to act in accordance with their own doctrines. But I believe that in the eyes of the law, all Americans should be treated equally. And where states enact same-sex marriage, no federal act should invalidate them. If you agree, you can stand up with me here. Thank you, Barack

Drugs are nothing more than a creation by God, since God is good, would his creations not be good as well? How do we rectify a good God doing bad things? What about all of the first born Egyptians that God murdered for the crimes of Pharaoh? Is that fair? What would we say about a God who murdered all first born Americans due to the acts of Obama or Bush? If we do believe in the Jewish God, then we must realize that God is a trickster and vengeful. With that in mind, one must wonder if the Jewish God is truly "good". I mean, what type of good God screws Job just to prove a point. Philosophical arguments are fun.

Greg, The white light, seeing your relatives, your basically in a dream state with very little comprehension of reality versus fantasy. If you have ever had a vivid dream you would know the experience, the difference is that when you wake up from the dream, you go "Oh I was dreaming", when someone has a near death experience, they usually are trying to give it more meaning or rationalize it, thus they try and argue its something more than a dream or illusion, when that is what it was. If you have ever take a hallucinogen youll see just how warped the human minds perception can be under the right circumstances. Near death your body is being flooded with natural drugs, etc, so its likely (imo) you would experience something that resembles a hallucination.

Greg, It is saddening. No belief that Ill ever know my grandparents, that one day I will never see my parents again, it is sad. But it is life. What is the point? Who knows? The point for me is to try and change the world to make it better for everyone, maybe Ill succeed, maybe Ill fail, but the hope will be that one day my child can do more than me, and that will be my legacy.

QUOTE (kapkomet @ May 9, 2012 -> 09:52 PM) You should. That's part of the problem. Here. I'll equate it. Mitt Romney is a reprehenisble asshole for flipflopping on abortion to shake down people just for that reason. So, if *I* believe that abortion is murder, I'm supposed to rush right out and love me some Mitt? WOO HOO. Not. He's a douchebag, for the same reason. Mow, if he had that same conviction and wasn't trying to shake down money and be a whorebag, I might be more apt to believe him. This is still nonsensical. You dont support someone for changing to your position. Do you find reasons to complain when your team wins? Like damn, AJ caught a break on drop 3rd strike, the Sox didnt really deserve to win the World Series, so im not going to celebrate because its reprehensible? The whole idea of being a sheep is doing what you are doing, your standing by meaningless constructed principles instead of focusing on the bottom line. It doesnt matter how you get the result, it matters that you get the result you want. If any of these people had principles they wouldnt be in politics, you dont get to a national stage without selling out, it just isnt possible. So I can hate all politicians and sit in a corner pouting, or I can take the victories when they come and do my best to ensure that even if Obama doesnt believe in it, that it happens anyways. Because that is getting what I want, and I sure as hell dont give a damn what Obama really believes, or if he truly wants gays to be equal.

Kap, You by far are my favorite poster. You are really the only person who is either 1) so hilarious that you realize how hypocritical your poster persona is in an attempt to convince us with opposite thought or 2) you are so unreasonable that you cant even see the nonsense of the argument. Usually people start to crack and give up, but you just keep on chugging as if your argument actually has merit, which is why you basically ignore every post except a few where you can change the subject. "Youre sniping, no youre sniping, no one ever responds to my posts, they always just take them out of context, no you do that, no I dont you do." Thats basically all you post. You still havent even said whether you support gay rights or not, and youve posted what 20-50 times? How is that even possible.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ May 9, 2012 -> 09:09 PM) And Obama has spent a lifetime hating. Now that gets forgotten, and then by some miracle it gets added to the party platform on the same day. The thing is if he is willing to change this one there is no reason to stop him from switching again. You are right, there is no reason to trust Obama. But if given 2 options: 1) We are going to change and do what you want or 2) We arent going to change and we arent going to do what you want. Dont you take option 1, even if it may not come true? There is no other alternative position, the Republican party is not promoting a more pro-equality position, so why should any rationale person care about the reasoning. No one is even mentioning that the people were holding the money back to try and force Obama's hand. Politics are dirty, its about results.

Gotta start somewhere, Brad Pitt held up signs for Polo Loco.

QUOTE (farmteam @ May 9, 2012 -> 08:39 PM) I should stop being surprised in the Buster when people do not read what I've written and then respond to what I haven't said. Its easier to be evasive and attack, then actually take a position and defend. Cant pin someone down on in the internet.

QUOTE (kapkomet @ May 9, 2012 -> 08:30 PM) No, I don't. I'm glad you "settle" for being used. If it's a principled stance, so be it. This isn't. Nonetheless, you are all in love again because we have a leader who loves to play people's emotions instead of being a real leader. It's sad you can't see that. No whats sad is that you dont see that every single leader in the history of mankind did the exact same thing. You actually somehow believe that these people get into power and then do something for the good of humanity. That is what being a sheep is. /sigh

QUOTE (kapkomet @ May 9, 2012 -> 08:24 PM) No, a definition of a sheep is just allowing yourself to be sucked in, saying RAH RAH RAH!!! by a weak sauce president who is using a sensitized issue for a political prop and to shake a group down for more money. You all are praising a stance that may be right or wrong (which you keep assuming my stance but you don't know) that is 100% allowing your position to be used. He did it TODAY because the pollsters told him to. Quick. Call GMA, because now I'm for gay marriage! (sic). It's a disgusting, purely political bald face move. I'm glad you all support using gay people like that. I sure don't, and frankly I don't have a problem with the issue at all. But I sure do mind it for a political prop and you all cheer it on ... so hisssstoric!! I dont know your stance because you are to afraid to say it. Unlike the rest of us, who are willing to stand by their position, you meekly refuse to say what you believe. Man up, Im so sick of your cowardice. You know how easy it is to attack people and never offer a solution? A child can do it, I could train a 6 year old to argue this way, only the weakest minded person is persuaded by it. Because anyone who actually thinks for themselves, asks the follow up question: WHAT DO YOU THINK? Just come out and say it, instead of dancing around the issue. As for the rah rah, let me guess something about you, you are a christian male. Because when you are a minority, and when your life has been s***ty for thousands of years, you dont give 2 s***s about the reasons why you get youre freedom. I dont hear a lot of Jews worrying about the fact that Israel was given to them as blood money for the World War II. I dont hear a lot of blacks complaining about Lincoln only freeing them because it helped with the Civil War, I dont hear a lot of people complaining about LBJ doing the right thing even if he didnt agree with it. Why? Not because of your nonsensical premise that its because they are sheep, its because they arent sheep. And they arent willing to let people like you try and convince them that some how their life is better because they arent been given rights. You know thats a thing right? You remind me of John Calhoun, his basic style of argument was similar to yours. He rationalized that slavery was actually better for slaves, because if you compared them to people in Africa, some of them could read and they all had Jesus Christ/Christianity, which is far better than being free in a jungle. And that the reason why Northerners wanted to free the slaves wasnt because they were altruistic white people, its because it would cripple the South. So you know what those slaves should have done, they should have refused to accept freedom. Those damn northerners using them for a prop, how terrible of them. I a gentle Southern Slave owner refuse to agree with this, the South actually left the Union because they did not want to be a part of using black people like that. QUOTE (kapkomet @ May 9, 2012 -> 08:26 PM) Oh, and you know, LBJ was bigoted before he turned into a race hero, right? .... ..... ........ It's not (the) issue, it's that you all just jump right in and drain the swamp with someone who has no moral compass whatsoever. See above, baah.

I understood your position. I just wanted to make it crystal clear why Kap's position is so terribly illogical and give a specific historical example of the exact same situation using Lincoln (I would almost bet that every historical shift in rights was tied to some sort of political gain or deal to keep power, even the Magna Carta. Its not like the King of England just decided "Oh lets give them rights", it was a deal to keep power. I guess I just am shocked that either Kap is extremely naive or just so divisive of a person that even when Obama does something to give people rights, he still wants to turn it into a negative, I just cant stand people who cant give their opponents credit or respect for the good, its a terribly petty trait.) Anyways its really offensive to me and one of my best friends is a lesbian, and if you are friends with people who are not "normal" you understand just how real these issues are. To make light of this, to try and turn it into a bad thing, that just is not going to stand. If I am sheep, then this sheep will roar.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ May 9, 2012 -> 08:04 PM) One reading this thread might note that despite repeated prompting, there has been an absolute refusal to say that even if the motivation is bad, the decision is the right one, by these posters. A reasonable reader might well conclude that what truly angers those posters is that the Presidet no longer supports that legalized bigotry, and that is why they cannot condemn that bigotry despite prompting repeatedly. I think its more about fear. Change is coming, social inequality can not last.

Farmteam, Hes no crusader for gay rights, but hes the first President to support it, so you cant deny his role. Its like Lincoln, he was no abolitiionist, in fact he wasnt even strongly against slavery to start, but circumstances changed and thus he freed the slaves. History doesnt care about reasons, history cares about results. If Obama can get gay people equality, it wont matter the reason. To argue otherwise is nothing more than trying to create a smokescreen to obscure the actual facts, which is why Kap relies on the lowest possible form of argument, insulting the other person. You call a person a sheep, when you have nothing, when you cant respond with an actual argument, when you can not actually articulate a position. If he wants a sheep, he picked the wrong battle.

Farmteam, Even if it was done 100% for political gain, isnt that better for someone who has been denied rights, than for him to do nothing, which is seemingly what Kap prefers? Thats how ridiculous the argument is.

Once again, this is nothing new. Every minority has been used as a prop, so what, the ends justify the means. Thats Machiavelli, basically the opposite of your nonsensical personal attack, which is the epitome of a weak argument by the way. Calling someone a sheep in an attempt to try and get them to change their position to show they arent a follower, weak sauce. And I dont care what spectrum he preaches from, I dont care about his principles, I care that a people who have been denied rights in this country. So lets recap: You said he sold me down the river, but in actuality he didnt. You now are trying to move the goal posts into a new argument that hes using gay people as a prop (who cares, I sure as hell dont) but at the same time actually going to be trying to give them rights. If that is a prop, I guarantee every gay person would prefer to be a "prop" and get rights, than to prefer to be treated like they are in the great state of NC. Youre comments are unsupported nonsense, you cant even respond. I cant believe how bitter people are in the world that they are going to try and convince people that its a bad thing that Obama is supporting gay rights, because Obama isnt doing it out of the kindness of his heart. Youre position is embarrassing if you believe in freedom and equality, it shouldnt matter what reason, all that should matter is that it happens. (Edit) Was this the brilliant argument that was used in the 60's to try and beat the Civil Rights Act? They are only giving you rights to get your vote and money, dont fall it for it!!!!! Dont vote for LBJ, he only wants to give you rights to get reelected!!!

And Ive never been called a sheep before, so that was a new experience.

Explain to me how he sold me down the river? By taking a position I agree with, to gain more money, how is that selling me down the river? Who are "you people". Because all I see is an argument for why Obama did it for the wrong reasons, I have yet to see how this will in any way turn out negatively for people who support gay marriage. Please explain how it is negative for people who want equal rights for all humans, I just cant understand your position, it makes 0 sense.