Soxbadger

Wow seriously? Its a message board, I dont respond to every single sentence in every post. I clearly feel bad for his loss (go read the numerous posts in this thread about how the tragic loss is why I dont feel right about the celebrations), so I felt it was absolutely unnecessary to reference it. I feel bad for everyone who has died, on both sides, there will never be anything that any of us can do to bring them back or to make their family or lives whole. But if you are going to attack me and than put a sympathetic statement in it, I feel I have every right in the world to respond to that statement. He called my arguments ridiculous and than said I needed to get off my high horse. What else can I do but laugh? As I said before, it goes without saying, but Im not simply going to let his claims go without a response, because he is sympathetic. Just as I would expect that none of you, would let me off the hook, just because something bad may have personally happened to my family. Fair is fair, the rest of his comments stand alone, and I merely responded to only those comments. You want to take it completely out of context, fine, but there is no evidence or suggestion that I was laughing at his sorrow. Not to mention, as soon as it was brought up, I entirely clarified my position. If you really think its so horrific, Ill gladly edit out the "lol" but that is just how preposterous it was that I was commenting on his loss. It is so beyond anything that I could imagine, I never even thought anyone would interpret it that way. My mistake, and I clarified.

Because I wasnt responding to his personal loss. Obviously I feel horrible for that, I thought that went without saying.

(I have retracted the "lol" part of this post as it was being incorrectly characterized as a response to the impact on his immediate family, as opposed to the correct context, that his statement that my argument is ridiculous and at the same time saying I should get off my high horse, made me laugh. Sorry for any confusion) How dare I. Perhaps you should go back and read the context of my first statements. I only got involved because others *gasp* dared to attack certain people for questioning whether or not celebrating was necessary. Here is the extremely offensive and "HOW DARE YOU" comment I made: damnit, that is pretty abrasive and out there. I have no clue what people are even reading in this thread, because I countless times have said that I dont care if people celebrated, I just dont think its the most prudent choice. I then took the crazy position that World War II or the Berlin Wall were a bigger events than 9/11. Youre right, these are all positions that are not understandable. Lets just cut to the chase: I couldnt agree more. I actually understand both sides of the argument, I have at least 1 time stated that I would have celebrated if I was there. So who is on their high horse? The person who admits that the other side has merit and that they would have done similar? Or the person who says "HOW DARE YOU" have your own independent opinion that is not the same as me.

6, id have to imagine Atlanta will win 1 game at home.

No problem I never thought it was directed at me, so I wasnt sure why I needed to respond to it. Ive just been trying to avoid real work by this thread. I felt the celebrations were an interesting phenomenon (and as I already admitted had I been there I probably would have done it), and I was kind of surprised at the reaction.

How do I respond to what? I think I am the great patriot, I love America as much as anyone can. America is the only reason I exist, if not for this country I would not be, if not for this country millions or billions may not have existed. I would never (unless I was just trying to set some one off) attack some ones patriotism, so I dont know how to respond to that post. As for feeling patriotism over the last 10 years, I felt more patriotic on 9/11 than when Osama was killed. I even felt more patriotism in the original Gulf war when Saddam was attacking the Israeli's and Kuwaiti's. Killing Osama didnt make me feel like a patriot, I feel like a patriot when I think of all those who have fought for the rights of others, all those American's who sacrificed their lives so that others can be free. I guess I felt no reason to respond, because it wasnt possibly directed at me.

The Berlin Wall coming down was real, this is symbolic. Terrorism is not going away because Osama is dead, Osama just reminded us that when there is no one worse than the US (USSR, Nazi, etc) we are the biggest target and we are the ones that will take the hate of the world. The only question is next time will we respond the same way. It may not be tomorrow, it may not be for a thousand years, but there will be another domestic terror attack. People forget that before Osama there was The OKC bombing done by US citizens, that they tried to blow up the WTC previously and failed, that there was the Unabomber. Osama just happened to be the guy that came up with a plan that went bigger, that was inevitable. Its just tragic that people will kill other people to send a message, and killing Osama isnt going to stop that, no amount of killing ever will.

We are hated and it makes me sad for people who hate me for a silly reason that makes no sense, when I sit here and often times defend them far more than others would. I just hope there is one of them that sits there and defends me. Osama hated me, he wanted me dead, but I pity him, because he wasted life on hate, when he could have really helped people by using his vast wealth and message for good.

I said Korver was the key before the series, and I stand by it. He is the only Bulls shooter that really would scare me, you just cant forget him and that draws so much attention away from Rose.

He (is Osama) changed the world forever. In comparison after World War II things went back to normal.

Man that is what Im talking about. The US dropped the atomic bomb, thousands of people died in an instant. Most of the entire Jewish world was wiped off the face of the earth. The US and USSR entered a Cold War, the first of the wars (Korea) would result in the deaths of millions of people. The reason I have to come off so damn hard, is that there are people who I really respect making 9/11 way more important than it was. I could live with it being the worst terrorist attack in history, I could live with it being an event that made us feel less safe. But to say that it caused a bigger impact than World War II, is just elevating it to a level it cant be. 9/11 is more comparable to Pearl Harbor, than to the entire war.

I doubt it will cause damage. I just think we need to be more mindful of our actions. Im no better than anyone else and if I was there I probably would have got caught up in the moment. I guess I want to finish Osama's legacy and that begins today, it begins when we focus on the terror that can be done by anyone to innocents, that what happened to us on 9/11 is what makes us like them. We suffer, they suffer, we should all hope that one day we all realize that no one gains by senseless violence. Osama did not gain, the US did not gain, the people Osama wanted to help did not gain. We all lost. Yesterday was justice, but I wish he wasnt dead. I wish he had been captured and was forced to live in a cell for the rest of his life. I was sad to hear that we killed him, he deserved far worse. He deserved to live to see the rest of the world forget him as he rotted in a jail.

Ive never said it wasnt fine. I just dont think it was the most prudent choice.

QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ May 2, 2011 -> 09:22 PM) First, you're completely ignoring the positive consequences of his death. You don't think his death - getting rid of the face of islamic terrorism - isn't going to be a positive? You keep claiming this negative consequence without addressing my point that they're using his death for propaganda anyway, so how does celebrating it going to make much of a difference? When you link me a video that shows people burning the Quran and screaming death to all muslims, then i'll agree with you. That's not a good thing. But people chanting USA because they finally caught the guy responsible for 9/11 isn't going to change anything. Second, I appreciate the fact that you want to minimize the importance of Bin Laden, but that's just not reality man. It's been a decade. He's the most wanted man in the world. That's not legend, that's not a myth, that's a fact. People will remember last night like they remembered 9/11. It was a historic event whether you like it or not. First, hes the face of Islamic terrorism because we make him be. Now that he is dead, there will be another face of Islamic terrorism. Killing Osama isnt going to stop the fact that there are people out there that want to kill us. The celebrating may not make a difference, I just think that it doesnt matter, so why take the risk. I guess I know that it makes me morally uneasy, so if Im morally uneasy and I cant see any definitive reason to do it, I tend to not do it. Second, its up to us to create the narrative. I dont like what he did, I dont like that a single American was killed, but in a historical context, Osama is not this super villain that deserves to be in the same breathe as Hitler, Pol Pot or any one else who killed millions. There are plenty of countries where leaders kill hundreds of thousands. The only difference is that Osama killed thousands of Americans. I get it, when 9/11 happened I wanted my pound of flesh, but 10 years later, after watching the fall out of wanting that flesh, I ask myself, in the end was it all worth it. When I dissassociate myself from the emotion, the answers are far more clear, I am glad he is dead, but he is nothing to put on a pedestal.

What else can you look at but the numbers? Since the Civil War, the US has suffered very few domestic casualties. It was a historical inevitability that some time, some where, we would get hit. We should all be glad that Osama was a small time fool, because if he had been really as bad as we make him out to be he could have killed so many more people.

Hes the #1 terrorist because of the US. Look at the kill totals, Bin Laden is small time. Even Saddam has way more kills than Bin Laden. Who cares if the US govt ranks him 1 or a million, I care about death totals. The reason he was #1, is because he actually had the audacity to take on the crown. I understand what the US did, we made an example of him. You kill one of ours, we kill ten of yours. I get this mentality more than I care to admit, but now that we have him, we need to put him in his real historical context, a lucky b****. With all of his money, with all of his access this was all he could achieve. Hes a failure, unless we make him out to be "THE GREATEST TERRORIST TO EVER LIVE"

Your argument is that there will be terrorists anyways, so who cares what we do. I dont need to respond to it because its flat out nonsense. We all know that our actions can have consequences, and you cant say that there is not a person out there who would otherwise not been a terrorist, but for seeing how America reacted last night. And if there is even a .0000001% chance, than im going to play on the safe side. I can get drunk for no reason, I can shout USA USA for no reason, I can be proud of the US for so many things. I just dont agree with being proud for killing a man, it makes him a myth, it makes him a legend, it puts him in a historical context that he does not deserve. He is no myth, he is no legend, he is just a man, and I dont celebrate the death of men.

Because its not a huge victory. its a Pyrrhic victory. Osama is a small time b****, he never even killed a 100,000 people. He just happened to kill our people, and when that happens it is natural to want revenge. But revenge does nothing but kill more people. This whole thing started because we all wanted revenge, blood feuds never end well, some one has to be the one who buries the hatchet (how is that for a run of cliches).

Its not an absolute, its just if it could cause 1 more terrorist, who may kill more people, why do it? (edit) That is the rationale argument, the moral argument is clearly against celebrating. All you have to do is look at the quote I posted about what god said to the hebrews after they left Egypt. You dont cheer for the suffering of others. Thats been a judeo christian rule since almost 6000 years ago.

So, what good came from the celebrations? All it may have done is piss people off, there is not one thing that the US concretely gained by going out and celebrating as if we actually won or accomplished something. I can point to a concrete example of why this could not only hurt America's perception, but also could result in more American deaths. What can you point to as a concrete example of how this will help Americans? If you and your friends want to go to a bar and get drunk, good for you. But going out and acting like that, when we know how many innocent people have died at both Osama's and the US's hands because of this nonsense, does nothing more than fuel the flames Ill celebrate when they pull the troops out of Pakistan and Afghanistan, Ill celebrate when they end the War on terror. Until then, we still have men and women out there who are risking their lives, we still have innocent civilians being killed on both sides. Its not over, and until its over, Im not celebrating, because I dont celebrate the death of anyone, I celebrate those who do great things, I wouldnt give Osama the honor of celebrating. Celebrating his death does nothing more than make him out to be more than he ever was. Just stupid person who got lucky, hes no super villain, hes nothing.

If you cant see how this will be used by,a terrorist, than there is nothing else to say. In my recruitment video, Id show a picture of dead civilians and then US people cheering and shouting. Propaganda isnt about the truth, its about what I can make the truth Regardless it isnt about the terrorists, its about us. I thought we were better, I thought we came from a nation that feels the suffering of all of those who suffer. Maybe we are no better. But that doesnt mean I cant strive to be better.

I never said I could make a compelling argument that they are the same thing. I said I could make a compelling argument why some one dancing on the street over a soldiers death was similar to some one dancing on the street over Osama's death. If a soldier killed your family (accidentally) and then he was killed, Im sure there are people that would dance in the street. It doesnt matter what the intention is, it matters what the end result is. Both men caused the death of innocent lives. I am just not so bold as to blindly believe that I am on the right side. For all I know, we are the ones going to hell. Its easy cheer when you have always been the majority, it is much harder to cheer when you are in the minority and you can remember (not personally but historically) when people were cheering the death of your people.

The greatness of our country was on 9/11, when in the face of death people did heroic things. Killing Osama does not compare to that greatness, killing Osama does not make America great. The list of NY FD and PD, the people on the plane that fought back, that is America's greatness. Every time I see a picture of NY that includes the Twin Towers, I think of America's greatness, it is in the spirit of those who were willing to sacrifice everything for someone that they had never met. If that is not greatness, than I do not understand the word.

Where did I say they were the same? I said Im not sure its "okay". Or are you saying who cares about collateral damage as long as its ordered. IE We shouldnt care about all the innocents the A-Bomb killed because we didnt really mean to kill all those civilians, it just happened. Like I said, anyone can do what they want, just remember when you are dancing on the streets about some one's death, they will be dancing about yours. As long as you are fine with that, dance the night away. I personally am not fine with that. As for Christian or not, who cares.

You can draw any line in the sand that you want to try and say Osama's actions are better or worse than some one else. At the end of the day, death is death. Im not sure I follow that its okay for a US serviceman to kill an innocent civilian because he is acting on US orders, as opposed to Osama killing an innocent civilian because he believes he is acting on gods orders. Those arent my beliefs, but I could make a pretty compelling argument either way if I really cared to. The simple fact is I dont believe in dancing on other peoples graves. I feel sorrow, for all those who have suffered for the unnecessary fights. And that is on both sides of the fence.