ZoomSlowik

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 14, 2011 -> 09:24 PM) The question is, who will offer him more than that? (the heat might also offer more years as they did with Miller) Under the current market climate? That's definitely below what he can get. He's a big man with a pulse, that pretty much means he's worth at least $7 mil. Hell, there are three far inferior big men making more than $6 mil this year just on the Bobcats (Joel Pryzbilla, Tyrus Thomas and Desagan Diop). Under the new CBA, who knows.

WAY low on the Bulls. 62 seemed unfathomable, especially if you had told me the number of games Noah and Boozer would miss. Kind of scary how far actually trying every game can get you in the league right now.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 13, 2011 -> 03:52 PM) For that kind of money? On a rebuilding team? Edit: Under a (possible) hard cap? Gotta agree with Balta here. Boozer is a second tier PF that gets hurt a lot and is an awful defender. There's a reason he isn't on a max deal. That's going to be a BAD contract in a few years.

Bosh for Howard. /league

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 13, 2011 -> 02:09 PM) I don't think the Bulls are all that much better with Taj at PF and an overpaid shooting guard (i.e. Joe Johnson) in the backcourt compared to having Boozer. Um, yeah, they're better. The defense at PF gets considerably better, and Boozer didn't exactly make a huge offensive impact when he got hurt/sucked. And someone like Joe Johnson at SG is a HUGE upgrade offensively. Not only can he make shots, he can create his own. He's not as good defensively as Brewer and Bogans, but those two aren't exactly all-league and offer virtually nothing in the shot-making department.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 13, 2011 -> 02:02 PM) I really dislike the idea of opening up the PF hole again to try to fill the SG hole. Especially considering Boozer's contract size limits who you could get for him to equally overpaid SG's. You're not really "opening up the PF hole". If you play Gibson, the defense gets A LOT better and any offense you lose is made up by adding Dwight.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 13, 2011 -> 01:51 PM) Except a much younger Shaq. And a Shaq that doesn't score nearly as many points. Edit- nevermind, the context appears to be within the 2006 season. Comment withdrawn.

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Jun 13, 2011 -> 12:57 PM) And how do you come to this conclusion without the advanced metrics? They were/are both terrible offensively. They thrived defensively and on the boards. Again, you need to stop lumping Russell into the same tier of offensive awfulness as Ben Wallace. Russell could pass and dribble, Wallace could not. Bill averaged 4.3 assists per game for his career and they frequently ran the offense through him after Cousy retired. Also, his field goal percentages are not as awful as they look when you consider the era. The league shooting percentage was 46% this year. It was far lower in Russell's day due to the style of play. Teams basically took the first "decent" shot they could get, which is why the pace was so high. His first three seasons the league shooting percentage was below 40% and it was between 41 and 44 the rest of his career. He only had one season where he shot significantly below the league average (-2.1% in 67-68) and 5 where he shot considerably over (4.7, 5.9, 6.2 and 5.7 percentage points his first four years and 3.1 points above in his 6th year). His other 7 years he was in the -1 to 1 range. So basically he was roughly a league average shooter in 7 of his 13 seasons, below in one, and WELL over in 5 while averaging 15 PPG. That has significant value offensively, certainly better than Wallace's meager 6 PPG at a 47.5% clip in a far better shooting league.

QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Jun 13, 2011 -> 12:42 PM) Best Canadian center of all-time

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Jun 13, 2011 -> 12:02 PM) He never owned Wilt. His teams owned Wilt. When Wilt had a cast around him, he won. You look at their size, skillset (or lack thereof), they were pretty similar (I'm talking about Wallace here). Even if you put Russell in today's game and give him all the benefits of advanced training, etc, he won't be any bigger than Wallace. Wallace was a physical specimen who fell off a cliff once we signed him for whatever reason. But he had a 4-5 year run that was every bit as impressive as Russell, IMO. Bob Cousy shot 37.5% from the floor on his career. How good could he have been! /JFL Read the Russell/Wilt section of Simmons' book. While he exaggerates a bit (counting Nate Thurmond as a pyramid player that Wilt played with his pretty tacky) and I don't totally agree with his conclusion, Wilt had plenty of legit players on his team later in his career and still didn't beat the Celtics with regularity Again, the Lakers had West, Baylor AND Wilt in 68-69 and still lost to the Celtics. That's three top-20 players of all time by most counts, and Russell's team still won. Again, you're completely ignoring that Russell was a far better passer than Wallace and actually scored points. There's a reason that Russell had a far longer peak and was held in far higher regard.

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Jun 13, 2011 -> 11:51 AM) I totally disagree and I'm pissed that basketball reference doesn't have advanced stats for players from the 60's. I guarantee when you normalize for pace that they're indeed similar. Maybe there's another site out there. Yeah, Russell was better for a longer period of time. I'll give you that. But peak wise, there was no difference. Bill Russell's 11 rings has exaggerated his standing among the all-time greats. If Ben Wallace was even remotely close to Bill Russell, then why does he only have one ring? Could it be because he didn't dominate the league to nearly the degree that Russell did? And don't give me the "there were no big guys" thing, because Russell pretty much owned Wilt for 10 years.

Relative to the era, Russell wasn't that inefficient offensively. Shooting percentages league-wide were in the low-40's and Russell was a fair amount above that ever year. They still won EVERY year. Wilt Chamberlain was probably a better individual player than him, but the Sixers beat them once even though Wilt eventually had guys like Hal Greer, Billy Cunningham and Chet Walker on his team. Plus the West/Baylor duo never beat them and the Celtics beat a Lakers team with West, Baylor AND Wilt in the 68-69 Finals. I don't quite know where I'd put Russell because of the huge difference in eras, but to compare him to Ben Wallace is just asanine. if nothing else, he was a way better passer and played at that level for 13 years, not 5-7 depending on when you think Big Ben started to fall off. He also scored 15 PPG at an above league average FG%, while Wallace was pretty much useless if it wasn't a dunk or putback.

QUOTE (RockRaines @ Jun 13, 2011 -> 11:07 AM) Technically rebounding, scoring, passing, shooting accuracy, and steals. Oh and winning. Larry took 2 more shots per game from the field, and took 1 less from 3. So your possession argument isnt all that great. You summed up what I was about to say in roughly 1/20th the words. Thank you. As for the second part, pretty sure he was saying that about Russell. I'm not exactly a Russell fan and JFL is right about that era being a completely different pace, but you don't end up as the best player on a championship team 11 times by accident. He also won 5 MVP's in an era where everyone still hated black people, so that says something about the respect he had around the league.

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Jun 12, 2011 -> 11:36 PM) Fair enough. I guess I was just blasting Pippen for his idiotic comments a couple weeks ago. I'd have much more respect for him if he would just come out and say he was jealous of MJ. I don't think anybody would blame him. Though I really do think he was a tad overrated. As a scorer, maybe. He wasn't the most efficient offensive player ever. However, he was arguably the best wing defender in the league, a great rebounder and a very good passer. His versatility was ridiculous. He was basically the SF version of Kevin Garnett. "Overrated" is a tough term for me because it depends on where they are "rated", which is subjective. If I'm talking with someone that says Kobe Bryant is the best player ever, I'd be saying he's overrated while the reverse is true if I'm talking to someone that doesn't think he was much better than T-Mac or Vince Carter (yes, extreme examples). Scottie wasn't a guy that was going to win a title all by himself, but with the right kind of team he could probably get one as the best player. I'd argue that he's less "overrated" than Reggie Miller, who basically milked one elite skill and had a number of holes in his game.

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Jun 12, 2011 -> 11:26 PM) I know they weren't a juggernaut. But they peaked at the right time. They were an offense rebound away from at least tying that game 7 and sending it into OT. And LeBron did more in Cleveland with arguably a worst cast in '07 and '09. I wasn't saying Pippen was on the same tier as Lebron, but he wasn't just some garden variety 20 PPG wing player either. The only forwards I've seen with his kind of solid all-around game are Lebron and pre-injury Grant Hill (oh, and I guess McGrady if you consider him a forward, though nowhere near the defense).

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Jun 12, 2011 -> 11:12 PM) So we're going to pretend the Pacers, who took out the Shaq/Penny Magic in a sweep, the #1 seed in Atlanta in 6 games and pushed the Knicks to 7 games (lost 94-90 in game 7) didn't exist? There is absolutely no guarantee the Bulls would've beaten the Pacers, let alone the Rockets, without HC advantage. 1) I mis-remembered, thought that they played them in the conference finals. I editted my previous post a bit. 2) I never said they would beat Houston, just that they would have had a legit shot at a ring. 3) The Pacers weren't exactly a juggernaut, they won 47 games and went 1-4 against the Bulls in the regular season. Reggie Miller was the only reason they challenged the Knicks, and Pippen likely would have guarded him down the stretch. New York was easily the toughest team in the East, I don't really care that Atlanta won 57 games too. Edit- Oh, and Dominque Wilkins didn't even play in the post-season. Atlanta's lineup in the post-season was Mookie Blaylock, Stacy Augmon, Craig Ehlo, Danny Manning and Kevin Willis. AWESOME team! 4) As I editted in, that wasn't exactly a stellar supporting cast either. The starting lineup was BJ Armstrong, Pete Myers, Scottie, Horace Grant, and the four headed monster of mediocre centers.

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Jun 12, 2011 -> 11:01 PM) LeBron is twice the player Pippen was. Get over your hate for LeBron (even I admit he's overrated now. But still great), and your love for Pippen (you're obviously a Bulls fan) and realize no Pippen-led team would've won a damn thing. I still can't get over a 21-year old Kobe serving Scottie's ass in 2000. A Pippen-led Bulls' team with a starting lineup of BJ Armstrong, Pete Myers, Horace Grant and the Cartwright/Longley/Wennington/King/Williams revolving door at center would have had a legit shot at the title if not for a bad call by Hue Hollins.

QUOTE (Palehosefan @ Jun 12, 2011 -> 10:50 PM) They need to somehow find legit talent for the bench, one guy that can come in and average 10 ppg. Playing an expired Mike Bibby, Eddy House, Juwan Howard, etc just isn't going to cut it. They also need a legit talent at PG and C in the starting lineup. Outside of tonights abysmal game, Mario Chalmers started to make some progress. But he still got abused by JJ Barea all series long. From what I can tell, Miami seems to have the 31st pick in the draft, so they might be able to add a legit talent to the rotation. I'm just hoping they somehow can end up with an athletic center that can defender, rebound, and not worry about having to score. I like Chalmers at the point for them personally. He's a decent shooter and usually a capable defender. It'd be hard for them to find much better with their limited budget. You just have to hope he plays a little smarter with experience. If Mike Miller gets healthy, I think he fits that 10 PPG type that can punish people from deep. Someone else that can get hot certainly wouldn't hurt. That center you mention at the end would definitely be what I would focus on though. Joel Anthony fits a lot better as a 4th big. If they can even find a Kendrick Perkins type that can average like 8-6 and defend, that'd be huge.

So who's starting the pool on when we see another actual NBA game? I've got February 1st.

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Jun 12, 2011 -> 10:20 PM) I'll give you Julius. Though his best years were clearly in the ABA. Gervin and King couldn't spell defense, let alone play any. Alex English is another 1-way SF that comes to mind. There weren't many defensive studs that played SF in the 80's. There aren't exactly a ton of elite defensive big men right now. Dirk had Udonis Haslem and Chris Bosh on him the entire series.

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Jun 12, 2011 -> 10:08 PM) Indeed. I think Bird could be an 18-20 PPG scorer. But it would be almost laughable to see guys like LeBron, Marion, Granger, Josh Smith, Gerald Wallace, AK47, etc, draped all over him. Back in the 80's you had Dominique and I guess Worthy. That was it at the SF position. Without even looking, you're forgetting Julius Erving, George Gervin and Bernard King. s***, if you're going down to guys like Andrei f***ing Kirilenko I'm sure there are some other SF's.

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Jun 12, 2011 -> 10:00 PM) Could you imagine Bird trying to get his shot off against the athletic freaks of nature we have in the league today? I'm not saying he would suck. But he wouldn't be as dominant as he was during the 80's. That's for certain. They also used to have actual centers in the 80's and allow you to play defense. Lets not forget that Bird was also a SMALL FORWARD for most of his career.

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Jun 12, 2011 -> 09:56 PM) Larry Bird was slow and had about as much athleticism as Robin Williams. He did his thing during his time. Dirk is great in any time. Dirk > Bird I must have missed the part where Dirk was flying up and down the floor and dominating in transition.

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Jun 12, 2011 -> 09:47 PM) I've seen enough. Dirk is the best player in the league and now a top 10 great. Coldest white boy I've ever seen. Larry Bird would be Kyle Korver in today's league. The first part, possibly. The rest, no. You need more than one ring to be top-10, and Larry Bird was basically Dirk with much better passing.

QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Jun 12, 2011 -> 09:38 PM) Not really his fault IMO. This series came down to effort/heart, not execution Dallas' shooting the last two games has helped quite a bit too.