Princess Dye

Am I right that this is most people's guess: Sox shopped Quentin. Offers were underwhelming. They now are leaking this 'not trading CQ' thing pretty fiercely because they know they can't get value. Now deciding whether or not they'll get an OK reliever via FA or move some prospects. And perhaps looking into some deal where they can at least save $1-2M by dumping Teahan + cash on someone?

They wouldn't leak this if they weren't going to go thru with it. Merkin writes for whitesox.com, right?

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Dec 11, 2010 -> 03:48 PM) Didn't he first say they were "asking for a lot"? IIRC, Lee went with the premise being some talent coming back, but the Sox took a hit in the talent dept. for the trade to free up salary, and in essence added others because of it, so they were considered part of the trade. He's already contradicted the tweet has spent 4 or 5 tweets defending after KW told someone he was full of s***. He's bound to be correct on one of these guesses sometime, and watch his reaction when he is. Having heard Cowley say this on 670, my take was that he was bringing up the Carlos Lee trade not as an example of what we'd get back, but just in terms of trading an established hitter for need-filling impact. He didn't really use that example to discuss specifics.

It's absolutely great when you have a guy acting like a douche publicly in papers,online or radio, instead of having to hang out with a douche. That way you can monitor what they're doing from afar and be entertained by it. This is how I can find B&B entertaining as well. Then when you realize that these professionals, each with their own douche personality thing, is more a ratings/clicks-deriving plan of theirs, the heavens can open up for you and you can stop taking things so personally from afar.

QUOTE (ChiSox_Sonix @ Dec 9, 2010 -> 11:39 AM) Which is why they should let him try out a corner OF spot in Charlotte this year. Don't half-ass it and move him all around either. I love his bat and think it justifies giving this a shot. Yeah, major league LF in 2012 would be a great goal. A wonderfully Juan Pierre-less goal indeed.

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Dec 9, 2010 -> 11:35 AM) Do you really think he can play a legitimate 3B? Look at him. Cmon, now. Don't be naive. Aramis Ramirez is big and made huge midcareer strides defensively. Viciedo has the arm. He's 21. I'm not promising anything but I'm also not seeing minor league time as rotting just b/c i'm impatient.

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Dec 9, 2010 -> 11:31 AM) So he rots in the minors? Makes no sense. Or he kills in the minors and expands trade options for him. He's young. He also could go to the minors, work on his fielding and replace OV/Morel in 2012. Or mid-2011. Ozzie seemed willing to play him there a bunch. Another option is he's a major league bench bat spelling people frequently at several positions. PK needs to be preserved.

QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Dec 9, 2010 -> 11:29 AM) Its been noted that Flowers got some hitting advice going into 2010 that conflicted with there the org had him going before that, and its screwed him up. I have every reason to believe he's going to hit again in 2011 like he did in 2009. He's not some throw-in, he has a lot of value with that bat and playing catcher even if only somewhat well defensively. Encouraging. Yeah, I mean even though I'm willing to deal him, I think he could net substantial relief help as a principle in the deal. As long as we're thinking about moves now and not waiting a year.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Dec 9, 2010 -> 11:23 AM) You're going to rule Flowers out simply based on the parameter that he is in our system? C'mon now. Yeah I've never gotten this. People would rather blame our org than the player. Especially with a player having such spotty history as Flowers (failed drug test) I think we have to look directly at the player as responsible.

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Dec 9, 2010 -> 11:22 AM) That was last year. Different set of circumstances now. Mainly the giant anaconda in the room named Adam Dunn. Maybe. But Viciedo is the insurance policy at OF/3B/1B, especially long term 1B with Paulie being here 3 years. It just seems like with his current contract, Viciedo is not the type of guy KW would trade off, b/c DV's not a drafted farmhand and instead more like one of KW's crafty acquisitions.

Based on how tightly they held onto Viciedo last trade deadline (when they were desperate enough to even pay Manny tons per game)...there's no way they trade him now for a reliever.

Would it really be "sell low" right now with Flowers? Sure, he had a down year. But also some of the mystery evaporates once he's this age (25 shortly) Interesting parallel is Lillibridge. Had some impressive years as a youngun in Atlanta's farm system. Then at age 24 he had his first bad year. Was traded the next year for pitching while there was still some value to him. Now he's 26 and you wouldn't be able to get a bucket of balls for him.

If you're reading his work, commenting on him and clicking his page, then he is not only doing his job but succeeding at it. There's some kind of misconception that his "job" is to correctly predict every FA transaction.

QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Dec 8, 2010 -> 01:43 PM) Jerry Reinsdorf is not a crazy rich old guy. "crazy" meant more for exaggeration purposes.

This is kind of on a tangent, but lets discuss JR and how he runs the team. For years my Cub fan friends wanted a crazy, old rich guy to own their team. JR definitely fits that bill. Last year we see he's willing to throw millions from out of nowhere at the last second to get Damon. But then we don't see that money get put into the team somewhere else before spring training. This year, they seem to be setting us up for one thing, and then suddenly they hike payroll up to record setting levels. Yes maybe some of that was emotion-driven, but it was still for a player coming off MVP candidacy. Maybe I'm naive but I basically don't worry about 2013 because we have one of those owners who (yes, sporadically) will just throw a bunch more $ at the problem. And this time it comes off a down year in attendance. What needs to improve is how KW sometimes spends that money, and thats an entirely different problem. Maybe that's why I don't care enough about 2013's $6M. That, and the fact that I can't (unlike others) assume D-Lee is going to find that pop he used to have. A lot of what you guys say makes sense, but that part of it you have to admit is hope-based. That he returns to '09 form. His 19 HR from '10: not enough.

QUOTE (bigruss22 @ Dec 8, 2010 -> 01:23 PM) Did you see DLees great 2009?? You're paying more for a lesser player with defense in consideration. If you're fine with an obvious fan bias getting in your way I guess this discussion is lost. I saw Lee's '09 but with older players I'm sure a FO doesn't like seeing a sign of deterioriation, be it injury related or not. I actually am not this huge Paulie fan, either. I wanted Lee for 2yr/16M. We'll see what he gets and if it's giant savings or not.

QUOTE (bigruss22 @ Dec 8, 2010 -> 01:16 PM) Unless, of course, they target the wrong player and it comes back to screw them. Than no, I don't want my team to be like that. I guess. But it's funny that this debate crops up regarding Konerko vs. D-Lee, two guys who are the same age and very simliar stat-wise. I like the one with the more recent great year, i'd pay extra if i'm sure my owner is willing to keep payroll high... but that is I guess me.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Dec 8, 2010 -> 01:06 PM) I'm saying you should only be willing to pay the player for what you think he is capable of over the life of the contract. Not what he did last year or the year before that. PK's home runs from last year will achieve nothing for the 2011 team. And yet teams pay for past performance all the time. Well honestly I would respect a GM that runs their team that way, but do you want to have a respectable strategy, or have a strategy similar to those of several consistently winning organizations? I have to look at winning teams that stray from the bargain spending philosophy and still win. They pay what it takes to keep their target from going to another team. I want to be one of those organizations. I'd side with you if I doubted JR was committed to winning and paying, but right now he's possibly going to set our payroll record, so I am hopeful for 2011-2013. We're not a bunch of over the hill guys. There's a lot of in-their-prime on this roster.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 8, 2010 -> 01:00 PM) Derek Lee is a career .315 hitter with a .915 OPS against AL pitching. Fair enough. Last year vs. AL .221/.299/.382 (68 AB). I guess we'll see which way his career goes from this point on.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Dec 8, 2010 -> 12:48 PM) Last year gets you NOTHING in this contract. Get that through your heads, people. If Paulie's year last year means nothing then I guess it's impossible to combat your point. I'm basically saying that the extra 6M in 2013 is worth it to me if it means I'm getting the better player. PK does his damage against AL pitching. Lee should do better against NL pitching if he's going to be my 1B on a championship team. Great organizations very often have to pay a guy an extra year who may be past his prime. If you are a team with a dedication to winning-level payroll year in year out, that is one of the risks. I'm not saying you pile up crappy contracts, but as someone said earlier, right now we have this 2014-2020 payment and the money we're on the hook for regarding Linebrink. Over time, that's not a lot for someone like JR.

QUOTE (bigruss22 @ Dec 8, 2010 -> 12:41 PM) You shouldnt give a contract over $30 mm because the player isn't "bad." JR paid because of loyalty, not because of a baseball decision. The way you tell it, Lee had the MVP caliber year last year, not PK. And Lee was in the NL. I'd have been all for Lee if the price were going to be super cheap. But what Lee put up stats-wise is clearly below PK's current functioning level. Also, again, jersey sales are of worth to the Sox. That's basically advertising for them. They want tons of Sox jerseys all around the city. Dumping PK means these jerseys are no longer worn out and about, starting conversations around the city (and north side). Jersey-wearers are walking commercials for the White Sox, and this is an area they want to improve to help buzz for their team. Lee's worth in creating buzz for the team to me is lesser than what it means to bring this core from last year back, plus adding Dunn. To create optimum excitement in the fanbase, you want the team leader staying (obviously foremost is that he's still effective on the field). Teams do care about getting their logo out there, they go through pains to present it in various ways for a reason.

Every year there are tons of young kids buying new jerseys. Paulie is the team's leader, one of the most likely jerseys for these new consumers to be into. Lee would be coming in as an unknown. Lets also remember this -- even though I'm not one of them, there are those people out there who will run out to buy the new Sox road grey simply because the sleeve change on the old one is now unauthentic.

QUOTE (bigruss22 @ Dec 8, 2010 -> 11:44 AM) Jersey sales are part of league revenue sharing, so really no change. Attendance depends on if this team wins, pretty simple. Tickets are sold before the year starts as well as during the year. Also minor point, but having your team's jerseys all over the city is part of getting your brand out there and winning the battle of Chicagoans' entertainment dollars. It indirectly brings in revenue. A new Lee Sox jersey would sell, true, but the excitement created by Konerko/Dunn as having monster potential together is going to have its impact as well. I think we're about to see it.

White Sox looking for one lefty, one right for bullpen. But may have to trade to create $ space. Dave Van Dyck twitter Unique closer/setup man with Thornton/Sale. They'll apparently carry a third lefty who will be more of a situational guy and Sale will be that shutdown guy setting up perhaps.

QUOTE (bigruss22 @ Dec 8, 2010 -> 11:38 AM) YOu just helped his argument then you know. Having another contract that expires along with others next year gives you flexibility to re-up with players or to blow it up. And with everyone leaving, these extra draft picks wouldve been nice to help rebuild the system. Plus, as you mention, Dayan would be ready to fill in after a year. DLee was just a flatout better option. On the surface we can say this, but in truth we have no idea right now what creates flexibility or doesnt. Does having Konerko jerseys to sell create payroll flexibility for next year? Does increased 2011 attendance create flexibiliity more than Derrek Lee contract savings do? Those are possibilities. Paulie gets paid because he builds on last year's team to create excitement (read: ticket sales) for next year. Bringing in Lee alienates the silly no-Cub-should-ever-be-a-Sox people, as well as hampers excitement about the 3-4-5 in our lineup a bit. People with those beliefs buy tickets, as well as the people who consider PK their hero and their kids' hero. In JR's world payroll flexibility is more complex than just saying, oh crap, that's 6M in 2013 that we won't be able to spend. Right now he has to create excitement for the 2011 ballclub and sell a bunch of tickets. This Paulie move is a way of infusing some buzz into the fanbase. Signing D-Lee would be saying: come buy tickets for our Rios/Dunn/Lee 3-4-5. That's good but not sending the message that this is a clear improvement on last year. EDIT: and if you're talking about increasing payroll flexibility for 2012 to have some huge spending spree...i dont even know what to think about that. I'm happy getting away from the world of trying to nab the Torii's/Fukudome's year in and year out and being passed up. I'll miss our compensatory picks, but I wont trade all-star 1Bs for possible Kyle McCullochs.