Balta1701

(Raising arms extremely high up in the air) Oh, oh, I can think of someone!!!

And even if Rick Hahn says they would never do that, Machado could have been traded by then. There could be a new GM and ownership by then. 4 years from now he gets traded to the Yankees and the Yankees want that money to spend elsewhere at the end of his contract, he doesn't make the lineups. Imagine Ellsbury with that kind of contract structure. Or Pablo Sandoval. Hell didn't the Red Sox do exactly that to Hanley Ramirez?

Just for one comparison, Jim Thome would not have made those options.

They were 2 difficult to obtain vesting options that a future GM could easily avoid.

Remember how it went down with Machado. Machado's agent had demands that were higher than $300 million until Monday. Once the Padres came in and the offers got close, at $280, he called the other suitors and said the Padres offer was at $280. He didn't say he'd sign for that but he let other teams in on the deal. Then on Monday, he called all 3 teams and offered to sign for $300. One team said yes. No team had an offer as high as $300 even though they would go that high, not until the agent said the player would sign for it. When Scott Boras is ready and he knows it is close, most likely in the next few days, he will do something very similar, I'd guess with a number around $330, and the Phillies will say yes.

5 years is not a bad time at all for the opt out from the player's side. The strike/lockout is 3 years from now, so a 3 year opt out is idiotic for the player because they could opt out into the strike. A 4 year opt out is ok, but you also have no record of how free agency has responded to the new CBA in a normal offseason. 5 years from now, there's a full year's record of contracts out there - if the market is still depressed like it is now you stay in the deal, if the market has recovered to 2015 levels you take the opt out and make another $50 million in your career.

He cited Kinsler's veteran presence as a reason why they thought Machado would be a good fit in their clubhouse.

We did wait and we saw what happened yesterday. We waited 2 months and we saw the end result of their #1 target, a guy who was a better fit for the organization's needs than Harper.

My God, Phil Rogers is more intelligent than the White Sox organization.

They tried, but in a manner that was incompetent. If that was because of limits from ownership - it was still incompetence on the part of the GM that let those limits stand. If it was because of their own incompetence, well, then they're incompetent. Blaming ownership limits to let Rick Hahn off the hook does not work here because a competent GM would deal with those limits for this player. No one should get away with blaming ownership and letting Rick Hahn (and yes, Kenny Williams) off the hook. This is their failure more than ownerships - what fraction I don't care, but it's Rick Hahn's failure first and foremost.

Honestly it was still somewhat depressed. $300 was at the low end of people's guesses. No one really thought it would honestly go below that at the start of the offseason, but people thought $400 for Harper and $350 for Machado could be plausible.

Longoria to fill their 3b hole?

The other point that needs continually stressed is that this is a commentary on the General Manager also. If ownership sets limits that are going to hurt the franchise, limits that are arbitrary and capricious like "no opt outs" and "must stay below $275", the general manager's job is literally to work with ownership to get done what he needs to get done. If the limits are dumb like those are, he needs to work with ownership to make them understand that the market does not work this way. He needs to work with ownership to help them see how mandatory that player is to fit into his plan. He may need to bargain with ownership - fine no opt outs but ownership you need to be prepared to go to $350 million guaranteed to make up for it, or fine $300 million guaranteed and I'll keep the payroll below $70 million this year to make up for it by letting Abreu go. Ownership then will go "you can't let go of abreu" or "we can't go that high" and the general manager will negotiate with ownership - this player is more important to my world series teams than Abreu is in 2019 so I will let Abreu go and it's worth it" and they come to some sort of arrangement. Ownership won't be happy about spending money or breaking records, but they will be happy in 2 years with a playoff run. You can read a story of how a competent general manager made this happen in today's press articles, because this is literally what Preller did. Identified a player they could use, available at a good price, ownership did not want to commit that money, and he worked with ownership to make it happen. That story is in print right now, and that's how a competent general manager handles these sort of restrictions from ownership. So yes, complain about Jerry being cheap, it's part of the story. But an effective general manager can still operate a well run business with those restrictions. We do not have that.

You and the other 2 remaining believers in this organization will literally get to watch it happen this year as Alonso has a vesting option after 550 plate appearances and he won't reach that number, and the union won't be able to say a thing about it.

You can literally go right now and read articles about how it was Preller's faith in Machado and Preller's competent work in San Diego that convinced ownership to spend the money when they were hesitant to do so. It was in my morning newspaper, 2 paragraphs about it. A competent general manager doesn't just work with limits set by ownership, he helps ownership understand what the right limits need to be, and works with ownership to make those limits reasonable. If ownership wasn't going to go with a fair deal then he needs to help ownership understand that and he needs to make other pledges to ownership - fine ownership, if you won't go to $300 million right now, what if I let Abreu walk and save $18 million this season alone?

Just like the organization, you completely fail to understand how wrong you are. In every single way.

He still did bet on himself. For anyone who says he's lazy or won't work hard, he's got a year 5 opt out in there. If he bets that he'll have 4 all star appearances in the next 5 years, that's a great move - it comes after the CBA and strike/lockout, so he's got security through that, and a chance to go out and add maybe $50 million to his career earnings with the opt out.

One question for the Harper thread. I don't believe the White Sox organization has any idea what they did to their fanbase yesterday. The only way they actually shut up and pay for Harper, IMO, is if they truly realize that their miss on Machado is a singular event that will do a huge amount of damage to their fanbase. If they understand how many people said "that's it, that's the end of the rope I'm giving them", that might motivate them to take more aggressive actions. Does anyone see any evidence that they understand the damage they did yesterday? So far it seems the insiders are playing the same game, and we're hearing that the White Sox haven't even been in contact for weeks. The only way that they recover is if their response is one of panic; they realize that even if they're good in a few years, the damage they did right now will leave them no fan base left to return, so they panic right now and offer a professional contract that they would not offer Machado. Anyone see any evidence they're responding like that? I don't.

And on top of that, he has the much more player friendly 5 year opt out. If the organization is going to insist on no opt outs as a rule, then they are offering the player a less friendly deal, so the guaranteed money needs to be higher. A 10/$300 deal with a 5 year opt out is a better deal than 10/$300 guaranteed. If you're going no opt outs you have to offer an even higher guarantee. 10/$340 with no opt outs and you have a solid chance at the best deal.

Absolutely f***ing not. Those incentives only were attainable if the guy is still an all star at age 35. One injury and they're not. You're a trainer. How healthy do ballplayers typically stay in year 15 and 16 of their careers? A smart, intelligent GM would probably maneuver their way out of them. If RH wasn't the GM any more, or if Machado was traded, all the GM has to do is platoon the guy for 1/4 of the season to avoid those triggers. We are almost certainly going to do exactly that with Yonder Alonso's deal this year. He has an option for 2020 that vests with, hey, whaddya know, 550 plate appearances.

They didn't even put their best offer on the table until another team had already beaten it. What do you think they're going to do? Tell Machado's side in January that here's a $225 million deal, take it or leave it, and you expect them to say anything other than "We're leaving it"? Even if they'd gone with their true best offer of $250 million at that point, the player's side knew they could get a better deal from the Phillies at least, and that other teams would probably come sniffing around if it really stayed at that hugely discounted level.

Just go with the answer that they're really this dumb. That hypothesis is 100% consistent with everything that we know. They don't understand modern contracts, they don't understand negotiations, they aren't professional, and they think that bringing in a guy's chums and all being a happy family is more important that running a professional business.

They're not that smart. Either they thought that the agent was lying to them, or they thought that one season with his buddies was worth a $50 million discount, or maybe worst still they could have believed the bullcrap they spewed on Tuesday about how they thought an offer at $250 with team options was better than an offer at $300 with a player opt-out. None of those leave them looking good.

That Nightengale article says that they were told the bidding from the Padres was at $280 days ago and they said they were comfortable at $250. Then on Monday he called around and said they would sign at $300, the White Sox said "We're comfortable at $250" and he signed for $300. I can't remember how many times I said that the White Sox needed to wait until Machado's side gave a reasonable offer that they'd say yes to, and at that point accept the offer. That happened specifically Monday. They turned it down cold and are now making excuses. They gave a reasonable offer that they would sign and the White Sox's front office said no.

Yes.