Balta1701

QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Dec 15, 2017 -> 08:39 PM) Oh no how will you ever survive It took like 4 google searches, many of which turned up the town of Moore, Texas, and Roy Moore getting support from Texans. A link just woulda been nice.

QUOTE (flavum @ Dec 15, 2017 -> 07:25 PM) Moore to Texas for prospects I don't even know who Moore is from the name and now have to go look this up.

So there are an awful lot of hints that the GOP is about to end the investigations into Trump. The President talked about a pardon "not yet" today for Flynn, Congressperson Adam Schiff is noting that they have stopped scheduling any additional hearings into the Russian job in the House and they couldn't have done that without Paul Ryan's support, and a correspondent for Bloomberg at the House thinks that they're about to remove an FBI deputy Director over the Steele Dossier.

QUOTE (GreenSox @ Dec 15, 2017 -> 07:23 PM) I don't think that the Sox are that far off in terms of raw talent....it will just take a year or 2 to get ready. We have the raw talent right now to be better than the 2017 Astros were by 2020. We just need enough of it to work out. We have 1 fewer young stud ready to go around the diamond than them (Altuve, Correa, Springer/Moncada + Jiminez) but we've got a comparable amount of depth, if we can develop some guys...and we have WAY more pitching than they ever dreamed of having this season. Like it's not even a discussion. Their big acquisition was Verlander to fill that need, so we could use one more major player around the diamond.

QUOTE (SonofaRoache @ Dec 15, 2017 -> 02:32 PM) People agree with you. The point is we want to pay him top dollar AND have him here getting acclimated to the city and team, that chemistry is important. I don't think anyone is saying ask for a discount because he would have been here for a year. We simply want an advantage when the money is equal to other offers or a little more. If we wait to FA, he will still see a losing team anyway and without that experience here may not even give us a real look. If Manny Machado can't see that this team is going to be a monster in 2020 then I look forward to beating the tar out of whatever team he plays for.

QUOTE (soxfan2014 @ Dec 15, 2017 -> 02:28 PM) I was just referring to if we're going to be a team that spends that kind of money on a player, I'd gladly spend it on someone who won't be up 30s/40 when it's at the end. I just used Cano as an example. Pujols is another one. I'm much more ok with that example.

QUOTE (soxfan2014 @ Dec 15, 2017 -> 02:24 PM) Eventually, the Sox need to be one of those teams. And I would hope it would be on a player that is a 26 year old free agent than one that is at least 30 likes the M's did with Cano. Robinson Cano has actually outplayed his contract so far with the Mariners. He's been worth more than what he's being paid. That could turn around in the next few seasons, but so far that's not the issue. The issue was that the team signing him wasn't competitive with him, and convinced themselves they could be incorrectly.

QUOTE (Lillian @ Dec 15, 2017 -> 01:57 PM) I'm just wondering how many on this board really want to pay him $35 million per year, through his age 36 season. Personally, that notion doesn't sound very appealing to me, even if it isn't my money. But seriously, is it really necessary? Remember, if they signed him, they could still need to shell out another big contract, for a middle of the order, left handed bat. You all know that I want Moncada as a dynamic lead off hitter. That means that the organization will still lack the balance, provided by a potent left handed bat. Unless you have confidence that Collins will be that guy, who is going to fill that role? I guess that I might be a little more enthused, if Machado hit left handed, but not much more. Paying $35 million per year, to one guy on a 25 man roster, is just something that is awfully hard for me to get used to. I know that he started very young, but it's also hard to justify paying $350 million, for that lifetime .329 OBP. He is not the kind of hitter that Miguel Cabrera has been, or that Joey Votto still is. It's worth replying to this to say with regard to sticker shock - "get over it". Salaries in baseball have more than doubled in about the last 10 years. 10 years ago ARoid got himself 10/$280. Machado getting $300 million in todays' dollars is comparable to someone like Soriano getting his contract in 2006, and we tried to trade for him too, and the Cubs went to the playoffs several years in a row after signing him (and got the team sold).

QUOTE (steveno89 @ Dec 15, 2017 -> 01:43 PM) I just think the money might get to staggering amounts that the Sox will not feel comfortable going to. Mlbtraderumors guessed during a weekly chat Machado's deal ends up being $350-400 million over 10+ years on the open market. Is that something we really want to risk? We could theoretically sign 2-3 still very high quality players for that same money. If we have done our rebuild correctly we should not need 2-3 quality players as much as we would a top flight player. We've done the "needing to sign 3 quality players on the FA market" experience recently, we signed 3 in 2015. Robertson, Cabrera, LaRoche. That was nearly $40 million per year. Haven't we learned from this experience? The FA market is loaded with busts and if you sign 3 guys you expect 1 or 2.

QUOTE (bmags @ Dec 15, 2017 -> 01:41 PM) I 100% believe he will try to double dip on his terms. As much as people say 400 is gonna happen, I think 10 for 350 with the first 5 years paying 200 million with a player optout is highly likely. I would be very surprised to see him at $40 million annual value in the first 1/2 and then have an opt-out after that. The team would want it backloaded to offload a little bit of that risk onto him, and to take advantage of revenue inflation. That'll happen for every team out there, even the Yankees.

QUOTE (bmags @ Dec 15, 2017 -> 01:39 PM) To clarify, while I don't believe in the long-term doom and gloom over parity in MLB, I do think we have seen some NBA-ification in the MLB where players are going to the richest teams even as they aren't offering the best money, but just because they know they will be relevant during the contract and they were CLOSE ENOUGH. If Manny Machado doesn't think we're going to be relevant in 2020 then I look forward to beating whatever team he chooses to play for in the playoffs.

QUOTE (OmarComing25 @ Dec 15, 2017 -> 01:39 PM) Any chance we could do a heavily front-loaded deal with an opt out after a few years? Yes, although most opt-out deals are slightly back-loaded.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Dec 15, 2017 -> 01:25 PM) They are also godsends to ownership if they can help themselves. When Belle opted out, huge favor to JR, when ARod opted out, Yankees would have loved to have passed, same with Sabatthia. Give Machado an opt out after his age 30 or 31 season. And then have the discipline to let him play his declining seasons, even if he has a couple of decent ones in him, somewhere else. And reallocate the funds. I'll still offer them a trade of all the money back after ARod's opt out in exchange for them giving up the 2009 world series title. Do you think they take it?

QUOTE (chitownsportsfan @ Dec 15, 2017 -> 01:21 PM) If you're locking him up for 10 years 300+ million there's no opt out. It would probably be a dealbreaker for me. Having an opt out at say 28 would be brutal. He'd almost assuredly take it and would leave the Sox holding all the downside risk on the deal and none of the upside. These opt outs are poison pills. I have no issue with the opt out. If we're signing him, it's because we're going to win a world series between 2019-2021. That should be the plan, that should be the big board, that should be the "Tar and feather your GM if this doesn't happen" setup. The upside risk is the trophy. That's the only thing that matters. Seriously.

QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Dec 15, 2017 -> 01:04 PM) There are other teams that plan on offering him the most cash as well. He’s going to be one of the most desired free agents in baseball history. I can’t believe you think it’s as simple as offering the most money when the Yankees & Dodgers will be involved. There will be multiple teams that likely end up in the same basic range by the end of the process. Again, his decision will likely come down to non-financial considerations. Our best bet of landing Machado is to form a bond with the player (this is more than just culture) and then be prepared to match any offer he receives. If we go in without that benefit, landing him is going to be an uphill battle. Really, the Dodgers, with Turner at 3b and Seager at SS, are going to be after him? Seriously, where would he play?

QUOTE (soxfan2014 @ Dec 15, 2017 -> 12:55 PM) We're talking about if the Sox matched the top offer (or even went over) and then tried to sell him on other reasons (culture). You're arguing he wouldn't accept due to a s*** record and awful bullpen yet if he is a free agent and had no experience here, he suddenly wouldn't see that? If we think "culture" might matter, then how do we know ours is the culture he might like? I think money will matter and pay him the most and he'll come here, but that means I think culture doesn't matter. For those who think it does...they have to prove that he'll be 110% happy on a losing, kid-loaded team where occasionally the starter gives up 9 runs because he's a rookie or the bullpen rookies blow 6 games in a row. If you believe "The culture thing" will matter, that's the downside risk. People think our culture will somehow be a big selling point, but there's just as much reason to worry. Just pay the guy.

QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Dec 15, 2017 -> 12:24 PM) Not exactly the same, but Cespedes took less money/years to stay with the Mets cause he liked it there. Can you back that one up? Cespedes re-upped with the Mets the first time for a huge 1 year deal because there were so many OFs on the market that it dried up before he signed, and then signed a 4 year deal with the highest per-year average salary for any OF in baseball.

QUOTE (yesterday333 @ Dec 15, 2017 -> 12:20 PM) Well this might be what we are doing. If its an impressive offer with no top prospects then youd have to assume its players on the current roster. Abreu might be part of the package. And I thought I read somewhere that the O's still plan to compete this year. But if we deal Abreu that will screw with the all important culture that we're using to make him stay at a discount...

QUOTE (yesterday333 @ Dec 15, 2017 -> 11:14 AM) What if it was Avi and Flores? Avi isn't under contract when we are set to compete. Is there anybody in the bigs you would trade for him? I would be totally willing to move Garcia on such a deal. That offsets our payroll commitment without costing us anything from our 2020 roster.

QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Dec 15, 2017 -> 11:07 AM) This is a great post. While I think our odds of signing improve by quite a bit more and would be willing to pay more accordingly, you’ve outlined the general idea perfectly. Everyone is entitled to debate how impactful the strategy would be, but it bothers me when people call it nonsensical. It’s only stupid if the team pays a price well above the fair value of the benefit. If the package for him is Bernardo Flores (Who?) I'm ok with it. Anything beyond that is nonsensical. Is that fair?

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Dec 15, 2017 -> 10:36 AM) Good. That will put more heat on him from the right.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Dec 15, 2017 -> 11:56 AM) Are there examples where this has worked in the past with top of the line guys? And if this will net you a guy like Machado, shouldn't the "right price" be pretty steep? I also think if the White Sox have to make this move, it is admitting they won't be the top bidders. KW was upset he wasn't given the opportunity to speak to Ohtani and convince him to take the White Sox $300k. Organizations that don't think money talks are kidding themselves. Playing for a 76-86 White Sox team in 2018 isn't going to convince him to sign with the team if the Sox offer isn't the highest or pretty damn close. If the White Sox are scared that they won't be the top bidder for these guys despite having like $30 million in payroll commitments for 2019 then hoarding every talented player they can get their hands on for 6 years becomes even more important. They ought to have the money to be the top bidder on 2 great players if they want to be. If they aren't willing to be, then the only way to compete is to overwhelm the league with young talent.

QUOTE (yesterday333 @ Dec 15, 2017 -> 11:28 AM) Are there any players in our system youd be willing to trade for Machado? Is there a starting point for you or are you against trading anybody for him? I'm almost against the concept. I guess you could talk me out of Adams maybe? On the grounds of you could get more than that at the deadline even if he has a rough first half like he had last year, but even someone like that is an expensive risk. But seriously I really dislike this as an idea. You're spending $17 million and giving up players for the imaginary idea that he'll do something other than take the best offer made to him on the FA market next year when he's worked hard to get to the point where he can cash in on the best deal? The entire idea sounds like Malarkey to me.

QUOTE (soxfan2014 @ Dec 15, 2017 -> 11:14 AM) Yeah everyone seems to think these guys are going to come up and hit and pitch great right away. *Jiminez will but that's exception*