Lillian

How would you gentlemen assess the relative opposing pitching, of the collegiate conferences, in which Bohm, Madrigal and India respectively play? To what degree do you think that factor should be considered?

Between Robert, Rutherford, Basabe, Booker and Gonzales I'm confident that CF will not be a problem, when this team is ready to contend. If the Sox draft Madrigal, either he, or Anderson, might also be added to the list of candidates. Patience, Sox fans!! Oh, and I left off Tilson, though I'm not very hopeful that he will be the answer. it would be interesting to know who most of you think will be the center fielder, in 2020. Ultimately, it is likely to be Robert, but 2020 might be a year too early.

Thank you for entertaining this notion, and helping to begin a discussion, on the subject. Yes, short arms and a shorter bat, should be able to reach the hitting zone, more rapidly, given the same bat speed, simply because the distance traversed is less. Of course, the bigger man is able to compensate by generating more bat speed and thus more power. I'd love to see an article, on the subject, but a discussion, here on this forum could be just as informative, with some of our astute posters. I hope that this discussion won't hijack the thread, but since we have been discussing Madrigal, a thorough examination of the size factor seems appropriate.

I agree completely with those who assert that Madrigal's small stature should not be viewed as a negative, much less a disqualifier. In fact, I have long suspected that there are a couple of distinct advantages to being a very small hitter. The obvious plus is that the strike zone is smaller, thus posing a bigger challenge to pitchers. The other factor is something that I have never read, but am inclined to think is valid, that is that the swing plane is shorter for a little guy. That in turn can result in a similar consequence to the oft cited bat speed. While it doesn't produce the same power, it does allow the hitter to catch up to high velocity pitches. If anyone knows more about this hypothesis, I'd love to hear about it.

You misunderstand me. I am not down on him. I merely think that he is not suited for the role, which some here perceive. He is very likely not going to be a power hitter, or a great SS or third baseman. If he stays at second, and bats leadoff, I think that he has a chance to be one of the best, in that role.

Wouldn't you love to be a fly on the wall, in the room, where the scouts and Hostetler are discussing this stuff? Thank you all for an interesting and spirited discussion. It will be fun to see what happens, on Draft Night, and then going forward with the various players' development.

Don't we need to also factor in the metal, vs. wooden bat?

Yes, he can hit. The question is, to what degree would his contact skills be diminished, if he tried to hit for power?

Some players are very versatile, owing to their wide range of plus tools. A guy like Moncada, could play anywhere. He has speed, power, a good arm and the ability to hit. Madrigal is not the kind of player, whom I view as having that flexibility. He is a prototypical, high a on base percentage, lead off hitter with plus speed and remarkable contact skills. He supposedly lacks the arm strength to excel on the left side of the infield. He lacks the power to play any outfield positions, except CF. I just don't accept his notion that the Sox will be able to find a position for him, because he is such a great player and has a baseball acumen, that is off the charts, or that he is magically going to be transformed into a Jose Altuve, amazing little home run hitter. I have stated it, a couple of times, and in different contexts; He is a potential Gold Glove second baseman and terrific leadoff hitter. If you draft him, you better use him in that role. If you have an idea that you are going to try to turn him into something else, I think that would a mistake. If he is clearly the best player available, which is debatable, and you select him, don't try to convert him into something, for which he is not suitable. If he is ultimately blocked at 2ND, trade him, when the time is right.

That's funny. touché

Asserting that Madrigal should not be selected, with the idea of moving him to another position, is not inconsistent with the valid principle of taking the best player available. If they want to select him fine, leave him at the position, for which he is best suited. If it turns out that the Sox have no place for another second baseman, when he is ready to contribute, trade him. If you don't want to trade a young player, whom you drafted at #4, then don't select him. Many have talked about moving Moncada to third, or Anderson to CF, to accommodate Madrigal, when he's ready. Drafting for need may not be a good practice, but "needing" to mess with the core of a young team, in order to accommodate a draft choice, may not be such a good practice either. Moreover, and to reiterate, there are no clear "best players available" in this draft, with the exception of Mize, and now that seems in question.

Caulfield, that is precisely my point. We shouldn't be looking for another position for our #4 pick. Madrigal is a second baseman. I don't want him moved to a position, for which he is ill-suited. Now, if you think that Moncada should be moved, that's another thing all together. I'll just say, good luck with that.

Moncada and Jimenez are viewed as part of the "core" for the approaching window of contention. Not thinking ahead 2, or 3 years, seems like folly, to me. If we were considering a high school player, and picking in a later round, that logic would be fine, as he would not be expected to arrive, for at least 5 years. However, one of Madrigal's positive attributes is that he is a near ready, college player, who could be fast tracked to the Big Leagues.

I'm still convinced that picking Madrigal, with the #4 pick, is only justified if the Sox are confident that they can keep him at second base. That is where he is a potential Gold Glover. At SS, he no longer represents an elite defender, and that is one position where I prioritize defense, over offense. For those who talk of moving him to the hot corner, he simply does not profile as a third baseman. Therefore, unless the Sox think that Moncada can successfully be moved off the keystone spot, I prefer that they select someone else. Unfortunately, Yoan seems to be determined to play second, where he fancies himself as the second coming of his idol, Robinson Cano.

With Avi out for another month and Delmonico now gone for 4 to 6 weeks, I hope Palka gets extended playing time in RF. You know me, a left handed power bat is always worth giving every chance to succeed. He has acquitted himself very well, so far. If they play Leury in LF and either Engel or Thompson, in CF, they should be able to cover enough ground, to hide Palka in RF. He does have a pretty good arm, and runs surprisingly well, for a big guy.

Yes, and that was playing in Fenway Park.

OK, I give up. I thought that he had made a significant enough change in his mechanics and approach, to get him to the point that he might be a passable number 9 hitter, with great speed and defense. The buzz around Spring Training, which lauded his new approach and how good he looked, gave me hope that he might realize his potential. Then, he had a very good Spring. That, coupled with the fact that he really had been a football player, and needed time to learn to hit, were all "straws" to grasp onto. Unfortunately, he has really struggled, so far this season, and may be just about out of chances. As others have said, whoever plays CF now, is probably merely a "place holder,' with the promising crop of farm hands, who will eventually vie for the job.

Where exactly would you play him?

Good point. That was one of the intriguing factors. If the Sox took him at #4 and he were ranked #5, or #6, I guess that it's of no significant benefit. Would it even be considered under slot? I confess that I don't know exactly how the system works, in that respect. I assume that the money is almost the same between $4 and $5, correct? Here is India's stat line: AVG .384 OBP .525 SLG .780 2B 11 3B 3 HR 16 RBI 40 BB 43 SO 38 SB 11 CS 2

Yes, and earlier today, India hit another HR, with 2 RBI's and walk

You just echoed my point. Of course, you don't "take a guy in a lower tier, because of organizational need". There is no argument there and I'm not suggesting that. I stated that when there are several players, all of whom are rated very closely, with no consensus regarding who is the best, that is when other considerations could be valid. At this point Madrigal and India are a couple of places apart in the ranking. Several mock drafts have Madrigal at #4 and India at #5 or 6. That is clearly the same tier. And if you move Madrigal to SS or 3RD, those same rankings could well end up being reversed. You do make a very good point, regarding staying within the same tier. It really is not as significant what number pick a team has, as how much separates the selections in question. This year, most drafts seem to say that Mize is a clear #1 and it gets very crowded and subjective after him. Therefore, even drafting as high as #2, you can't really state that anyone is clearly "the best player available". There is simply no consensus. Who would you put in that second tier, following Mize?

This "best player available" concept continues to be a source of debate. Here is a circumstance where it gets a little more complicated. Team A is in a rebuild and targets a date 3 years down the road, when they estimate their window of contention will open. They have some really high level, elite prospects, who are just beginning their Major League careers, but are anticipated to be the cornerstones of the rebuild. Those couple of players are pretty much set, as far as their positions go. At the same time, there are a few holes, which are likely to have to be filled, to complete the rebuild. Now, the front office uses a very high draft pick, to take a guy, who is expected to be ready to contribute, just about the same time that their window of contention opens. Unfortunately, he is pretty much pegged at one of the positions, which are already taken by one of those key, young core players, and is not a likely candidate to fill one of the holes. Ok, so you can trade the pick. The problem is that you are trading him, before he has maximized his value, because he hasn't yet logged any significant playing time in the Majors. Nevertheless, he has no place to play, and other teams know that. You therefore end up trading him, from a disadvantaged position, and not receiving full value. From one perspective, it can make sense to think about who fits best, all other things being equal. If you have your pick of several players, who are all ranked about the same, which seems to be the case in this year's draft, what is wrong with picking a guy who fits? It comes down to the simple fact that it may not be obvious who that "best player available" is. In the that circumstance, what is wrong with selecting the guy who could fill a need, versus a player, who will likely be blocked? Perhaps I'm stating the obvious, but so often reading the assertion that; "it's just better to take the "best player available", justifies reiterating that it's not always that simple. Moreover, a player might be the "best player available," at a particular position, but not necessarily, if he moves to another position. Madrigal is a case in point. To me, he is the best second baseman in the draft. If you move him to short, he may be adequate, but perhaps not the best SS available. We know that Moncada is a lock at second base, probably until he becomes a free agent. I really don't want a guy at SS who is not an outstanding defensive player. Therefore, while Madrigal is a very polished hitter, abeit without significant power, he is not an elite SS. If I'm drafting #4, I want a guy who could be elite, at his position.

Just for fun, for me, I'm trying to decide my personal preference, among the college players, which I prefer. Would most of you rank the college arms as follows: Mize, Singer, McClanahan and the college bats: Madrigal, Bohm, India and Bart, in that order?

I love our pitching prospects, and their potential is indeed very intriguing. The thing that really worries me is the injury risk. It has gotten to be such a major issue, in this era. It's a little ironic, in that Tommy John Surgery has saved many careers, yet there seem to be so many more young pitchers experiencing the injury, requiring TJS. They throw so many fewer pitches, yet they get injured so frequently. It seems like you have to have a significant stock pile of good pitchers to help mitigate the risk. I remember the days when Billy Pierce, Early Wynn, Gary Peters and those guys would take the mound, every 4TH day and go the whole 9 innings, unless they just didn't have it. My, how the game has changed.

I think you're right, "Flash". It's hard to have too much good pitching and very expensive, as well risky, to buy it, in free agency.