Dick Allen

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Feb 5, 2014 -> 01:36 PM) You may as well see if they're no good though, right? People were sure that Chris Sale's arm was going to fall off in the rotation and nobody expected Quintana to last more than 2-3 starts and make his way out like Pedro Hernandez did, but sure as shoot they're both still there. If you don't ever try guys, you'll never know what you have. Rienzo and Surkamp and Axelrod have been tried and convicted of being not so good.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Feb 5, 2014 -> 01:26 PM) You have lambasted the Dunn signing as one of the worst ever and, in hindsight, it is. So what happens if they sign someone to a similar AAV to a position that is not of need and he flops? It's just a drop in the bucket? No, it's an absolutely terrible signing. The risk is extreme if he bombs. Regarding why people are not afraid of Abreu: first, they are afraid of him bombing. Secondly, it filled a position of great need for the Sox and hopefully locks up 1B for the next 6 years. The Sox do not NEED a starter right now and they don't necessarily NEED a starter next year. You don't make luxury signings at this stage in the team's development. They NEED a starting pitcher just as much as they NEED a first baseman. Just ask Balta. The Sox have plenty of 1B/DH. And as you admitted, chances are the Sox are going to have to rely on guys like Paulino who has pitched 140 innings exactly never in his MLB career, and after him are guys who you admittedly said are probably no good with Rienzo, Surkamp and even Axelrod. They will always need pitching. If they didn't need pitching, no one in their right mind could say they aren't contending for a playoff spot.

QUOTE (Stan Bahnsen @ Feb 5, 2014 -> 01:07 PM) He certainly was here in CO for awhile. I was his biggest fan. Consistently 96-98, even at games' end, with 6-8 inches of armside tail. If he had command of the FB, he barely needed the slider, which was always inconsistent, even in his best days, but was terrific when he was "on". Haven't seen anything close to that guy in the years that have transpired since. Don't know what happened - injuries didn't seem too severe. Some suspect roids, but all is speculation. Maybe Coop can help, but he'll never be what he was. That said, Ervin could be a gas can with the way the ball flies out of the cell, so if it's a choice, go with Ubaldo. I read a scouting report on him. It said his delivery got all out of whack. He changed it last year, taking some MPHs off his pitches but increasing his command. He got rocked in April, but was lights out the rest of the season.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Feb 5, 2014 -> 12:56 PM) At the same age, Ervin Santana's ERA in the big leagues was in the mid 4's. Ubaldo Jiminez put up an ERA over 5 during his 26-27 year old seasons. Actually as a 26 year old Jimenez put up a 2.88 ERA with 19 wins in Colorado. The guy has magic stuff. His problems were/are mechanical. I don't think even think the people here that want to argue with me if I say 2+2=4 would argue with me if I said that any logic that says Rienzo is anywhere near Santana or Jimenez is flawed.

QUOTE (Stan Bahnsen @ Feb 5, 2014 -> 12:52 PM) Hardly. Just acceptable risk for degree of return, as well as obvious need. I think the White Sox don't want to sign guys they don't want. Seems logical enough. I'm not worried they'll show a Marlins-like frugality, and neither are you. Come on, man. In my mind, Jimenez at $39 million is far less a gamble than Abreu at $68 million. And I love the Abreu signing. We will see what Jimenez ultimately signs for. It may be more. It may be less, but if you can harness his delivery, and that is something Cooper is known for, he is one of the better pitchers in the game.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Feb 5, 2014 -> 12:46 PM) Wait, so they used 15 guys last year as starting pitchers and are going into the season with more obvious starting pitcher candidates in the minors than they had last year? Clearly you make a convincing case to add starters. After all, we're better off with a 9 man rotation. Sure, if you want to watch guys like Axelrod and Rienzo get lit up, all is fine.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Feb 5, 2014 -> 12:37 PM) And wow, they used him as a starting pitcher in the big leagues for several months last year. Following that logic...he's potentially a young big league starter in their eyes. They used him out of neccessity not neccessarily because they wanted to. They used 15 guys last year as starting pitchers. That's 10 more than you think teams need.

QUOTE (Stan Bahnsen @ Feb 5, 2014 -> 12:31 PM) No, not nil. You'll either eat $40M (if it's a lot lower than that, I may even get on the trolley), which WILL impact your abilities next FA season, and/or you'll be forced to play someone who isn't one of your best 5, at least for awhile. Kinda like Dunn, who you enjoy so much. Not nil. And if Abreu bombs you eat $68 million, yet no one is worried about that. If the White Sox don't sign guys because they may bomb, they will become the Marlins. Nice and safe and profitable.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Feb 5, 2014 -> 12:30 PM) How on Earth can you state "Rienzo has been pitching in the Sox organization since 2007" as a knock against him and a reason why we shouldn't believe he can be a starter and then disagree with my interpretation of you arguing he's been in the org too long? I can't even figure out a semantic game that makes sense there. The White Sox should know what he is by now. He is soon to be 26. Is that easier for you? Considering once you hit 30, you believe guys are just about done, your arguing is funny.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Feb 5, 2014 -> 12:22 PM) I am glad I am not the only one who appreciated his age not being outrageous enough so the year he started pitching in the system was used instead. He'll be 26 in June.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Feb 5, 2014 -> 12:21 PM) Rienzo was one of those international signees everyone wants us to make lots of and spent those first 3 years in the Dominican Summer League, and now we're down on him for "being in the sox organization for too long"? Why on Earth are we signing international players if that's such a bad thing? I don't know that Rienzo will have long-term success but he has a better profile to build on than Axe...particularly a better fastball. First off, I never said he was in the organization too long. That is just more of your imagination. I said he has been around pitching since 2007. The organization should have an idea of what he is and what he could be by now, and I really doubt if we were able to listen in on the Sox front office evaluating him, it would be he is going to be a legit starting pitcher at the major league level. As I said, maybe a reliever. Axe shouldn't do either unless the game has already been decided. Rienzo is around 25 years old, hasn't been particularly dominant in the minors, and was tagged pretty well last season in his debut. Lots of pitchers get tagged in their debut, but Rienzo doesn't have anything that really sticks out as extraordinary or exceptional.

I watched a 48 Hours episode on this case a few years ago. I don't remember much, but 48 Hours did use their own investigators and at that time, I think Knox was jailed, it was concluded by them, that she was not just not guilty, but innocent. A lot of things in the prosecution's case did not and could not add up. I also think the crime scene was beyond compromised.

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Feb 5, 2014 -> 11:47 AM) This makes sense if you think guys like Surkamp and Rienzo are definitely s*** like Axelrod. But if you think they have upside, you have to let them pitch in order to reach it. Again, just just lost ~100 games -- if they have a s*** season in 2014, it isn't going to be because they don't have veteran pitching depth. I think Surkamp and Rienzo are like Axelrod, at least as starters. I don't know if you really have to see much to determine that. Rienzo has been pitching in the Sox organization since 2007, and Surkamp was drafted in 2008 and the Giants waived him, and the entire NL and the Astros passed. They might have a couple of decent games, like Axelrod did. But eventually the league will catch up to them. As relievers, picking their spots, not facing guys multiple times, getting away with reducing their repetiore, they MAY have success. But to assume they can be long term starting pitchers on a good team is a reach IMO.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Feb 5, 2014 -> 10:40 AM) So the idea is to spend $40 million for a team that won't contend, on a pitcher because we need an extra pitcher in case of injury. Again, the idea is to increase the talent level of the team, and to create real depth. Not Dylan Axelrod depth. Depth to me is guys you would confidently put on the mound and guys other teams would actually give you something of value to acquire. If John Groce let the TKE intramural team join the Illini as walk ons and called that depth, everyone would laugh. That, is Dylan Axelrod depth. Also, it may save you money if you plan on signing a free agent next year. If you want Homer Bailey next offseason, but Magic Johnson does as well, you are either out of luck or writing checks that will be a lot bigger than the checks you would be writing for Jimenez.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Feb 5, 2014 -> 10:07 AM) In all fairness, it's a testament (negatively) to the state of our minor league system that Dylan Axelrod was more or less the best starting option for the first 2-3 months last year. That said, the White Sox minor league system produced a plethora of relievers the season before, as well as Quintana and Santiago (at least smart scouting in the case of Quintana)...and then Johnson last year, so that's 3 quality starters in 2 seasons that are offsetting the poor allocation of resources into Dunn/Danks/Keppinger. And the depth with Rienzo/Surkamp/Paulino and eventually Beck means they can allocate those $10-15 million they were going to spend on a pitcher somewhere else, not to mention the savings created from likely trading Alexei Ramirez and in all probability DeAza and/or Beckham as well. I don't call guys with just a minute chance of being effective pitchers on good teams "depth". Guys that make you quesy just putting their name on the line up card. It is OK if you don't plan on winning, but the White Sox plan on winning. Rienzo has never been that great in the minors and really had a tough time keeping the ball in the ballpark when he was called up. Surkamp to me is left handed for Axelrod, and the Paulino love is unreal. I think I posted the last time Paulino pitched which was June of 2012, Paulie was hitting .376 with an 1.100 OPS. Paulino was really good in 6 starts in 2012, he was injured in the first inning of start 7, but basing his future success after major surgery on a guy over 30 on 6 starts is crazy. Maybe they catch lightning in a bottle, but chances are, he is going to have his struggles. He does resemble Bartolo Colon at the waistline, so I imagine some shots will be directed that way in gamethreads when they happen.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Feb 5, 2014 -> 09:06 AM) Will Jimenez make the White Sox a playoff contender next year? How do you plan to replace Dunn/LH bat, catcher, SS/2B (we can assume Semien for one of those positions, probably, but can't be sure as he wasn't even on most top Sox prospect lists coming into 2013) and any weaknesses at the back end of the bullpen? First off, money is not an issue. The White Sox were prepared to part with $120 million earlier this offseason including a $20 million posting fee. If Jimenez signed for 3 years and $39 million, that is half covered just with the posting fee. Dunn's salary is off the books next season as well. Adding to the White Sox stable of pitchers doesn't hurt you in any way, and especially if you have to deal a decent one to pick up another piece. The only way this is a bad move is if Jimenez bombs. I don't think he will.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Feb 5, 2014 -> 09:02 AM) Edwin Jackson You aren't giving the White Sox pitching coach a glowing endorsement if a pitcher as talented as Jimenez is sure to fail.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Feb 5, 2014 -> 09:18 AM) I would take 74-78 wins in a heartbeat if Sale/Quintana stayed 100% healthy/productive, EJ looked good, all the young hitters progressed AND Courtney Hawkins and Anderson looked legitimately like future superstars in the making. If all that happened on the major league level, they would win more than 74-78.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Feb 5, 2014 -> 09:08 AM) Wait a second...so the White Sox's rotation would be "Sale, Quintana, Danks, Jiminez, and EJ"...which one of those are we expecting to go down with this long-term injury? If we're planning for that...isn't one of the likely onest o go down...Jiminez? Whether they sign Jimenez or not, there are overwhelming odds a White Sox starting pitcher spends some time on the DL in 2014.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Feb 5, 2014 -> 08:38 AM) Congratulations. You just completely, utterly ignored every single word I said. Well done. Well done and applause. You seem to have a fetish that some others have on this board, and actually like to watch guys like Axelrod take the mound to get hammered time and time again before you are fairly certain they shouldn't be in a playoff contender's starting rotation. As I stated, there will be plenty of starts to go around if pitchers show they are worthy. Paulino has never pitched 140 innings in a season and is coming off a missed season. It is very unlikely he can or will make 30 starts. Rienzo has to prove he belongs. He hasn't yet. A stint in the bullpen or some more time at Charlotte could be good for him. Others will go down with injuries or if everyone is pitching well another team will need someone, because it pretty much happens every year except once . In 2005 the White Sox only used 6 starters.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Feb 5, 2014 -> 08:24 AM) Plug whatever name into that slot you want. It works just as well for Paulino, Rienzo, and so on. And if they earn a job pitching on the major league level, they will pitch. Teams that have only used 5 or 6 starters the entire year the past 50 years, can probably be counted on one hand. If you are good enough to pitch, you will eventually pitch. If the White Sox are so talented with starting pitchers that there is no room for someone of Jimenez's ilk, they are definitely a playoff contending team.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Feb 5, 2014 -> 08:16 AM) GMAB. That's not what anyone has said and you know that. They've said "we have the kind of pitchers we need right now". Erik Johnson might well not outpitch Jiminez this season. He's a rookie, rookies often struggle and take several years to develop. But that doesn't mean we should immediately decide not to give him the opportunity to start that learning process. Who said anything about not giving Johnson a chance?

QUOTE (GreenSox @ Feb 5, 2014 -> 12:47 AM) We aren't in a position to give up draft choices for an inconsistent pitcher. Arroyo is a mediocre innings eater..don't need that. The Sox need to get into a position to compete for many years. Stockpile prospects and draft choices...don't give up draft choices or trade away every ready prospect who we have to keep in AAA to plug some hole with a mediocre/declining veteran. I would be more inclined to sign Jimenez if his price dipped that low. His problem was his delivery. He changed it and is far more consistent. He was dominant the last half of the season and was dominant in Colorado. Cooper's emphasis is on repeatable delivery. Jimenez took a couple of MPHs off his stuff last year and was really successful after an awful start. If he was available for 3 years at $13 million a year, despite what some think, he is a far better pitcher than Paulino (and actually younger too), and will most likely be a far better player than the currently #43 pick while increasing the White Sox talent level and pitching depth to cover for trade, non performance and injury. If the White Sox really have 5 to 7 pitchers as good as Jimenez as has also been claimed, they are going to be winning a lot more than 71-78 games. Obviously Hahn has said he is not signing anyone linked to giving up a draft pick, so unless he is posturing, the point is moot. But I think, if the price gets to this point and he doesn't change his mind, he is making a mistake. Scott Kazmir costs $22 million. Next year or the year after, you may be competing to sign guys with the big boys again and that doesn't work out so well. The Sox got Abreu because they sat out on him.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Feb 4, 2014 -> 02:02 PM) A Sale or Quintana injury and that's easily projectable as a loss total. That doesn't mean the young offensive players haven't made progress, necessarily. If you have to worry about Sale coming back from an injury, and the team loses 90 games, I don't call that progress. Considering the White Sox aren't doing the rebuild the Twins or Cubs way, the major league record actually means something during this rebuild. If this team wins close to 90 games or more, there is no way to describe it other than great. If they lose 90 or more, it is going to depress a lot of people.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Feb 4, 2014 -> 01:51 PM) If Semien, A. Garcia, Eaton, Davidson and Viciedo all have good (or stronger than expected seasons), it's still possible we could lose 90 and it would be a satisfactory season, as long as there's not a major injury to the pitching staff. That would also likely mean Ramirez, Beckham, Dunn, DeAza and the catcher's spot are disappointing (along with Danks and the closer's role), which isn't completely out of the realm of possibility, either. If the White Sox are bad enough to lose 90 games, the development is not going to be satifactory.