StrangeSox

QUOTE (Whitewashed in '05 @ Sep 13, 2011 -> 04:02 PM) Best.Ever. So glad I can say I got to see him. Without a doubt. How much longer will he keep it going? He's been dominating pretty much the entire time I've followed baseball.s

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Sep 13, 2011 -> 02:23 PM) And evidently the Democrats hold these views as well. Apparently they just hide them better or something. To a much smaller extent than the tea party does, but it's sad that the general population's views on Islam are what they are. As has been said several times itt.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Sep 13, 2011 -> 01:48 PM) I understand the preponderance of benevolence assumptions in the Democrats actions here, but with a significant number of dead Muslims out there as a direct results of the Democrats policies why is it so crazy to assume that the significant portion of the Democrats who hold "anti-Muslim views" aren't the one influencing policy to the point where these dead Muslims are the results, yet the Tea Party, who has no power or party of their own, is apparently instituting "anti-Muslim policies"? Those two beliefs aren't very consistent together. Who's saying that the Tea Party has actually instituted these policies? The discussion was that the tea party holds these views. eta I don't attribute Bush's invasion of Iraq as something driven by anti-Muslim sentiment. To ignore all context and treat "supporting (Muslim) rebels in Libya" or "expanding operations in Afghanistan" as equivalent to opposing a mosque being built in your town or holding McCarthy-esque hearings on Muslims is just silly.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Sep 13, 2011 -> 01:26 PM) Aiding the overthrow and leading bombing of a predominantly Muslim nation in Libya, sending your military to an attack on another sovereign nations soil without permission in Pakistan, expanding war in another Muslim country in Afghanistan? Those policies and actions are different from xenophobia and "muslim radicalization hearings" and that sort of crap. We didn't support a muslim-led coup against a muslim dictator in Libya out of anti-Islam feelings. Missed?

Buehler? Buehler?

So production flat-lines while demand rises and prices increase.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Sep 13, 2011 -> 12:58 PM) So your basis is being made off of almost the exact same percentages of make up of the Republican Party, as hold "anti-Muslim" feelings in the Democratic Party. I don't know what you're saying here? I've explicitly said I'm talking about the tea party and not Republicans several times. Where's the dem anti-Muslim policies or politics? Fighting Sharia law and the islamification of American isn't really part of the Democratic party politics, but its pretty common in the tea party.

QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Sep 13, 2011 -> 12:59 PM) I view those as disagreements in religious belief or practice, not hate towards individuals. They don't trust them to teach elementary school and find them to be un-American, but they don't dislike them. really, that sentence makes sense to you?

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Sep 13, 2011 -> 12:50 PM) If a third of your party believes something, it doesn't shape its politics? Interesting. The democrats haven't really had a bunch of anti-Muslim politics come up lately, no. Off hand, 25%? But its sort of irrelevant since I'm talking specifically about the tea party.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Sep 13, 2011 -> 12:46 PM) It doesn't excuse it, but it does mean it is much more mainstream than it is being painted as. In the respect you are talking about, that means the Democrats have strong prejudicial resentment politics at their core as well. Not really, since 1) it represents a minority of Democrats and 2) it isn't shaping much of their politics and policies.

QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Sep 13, 2011 -> 12:45 PM) Again with the "They" crap. "They"=the majority of tea party respondents to poll questions, not every single individual tea party supporter. Can you explain how those bullet points can be true but somehow still doesn't lead to the conclusion that "the majority of tea party respondents to poll questions" dislike Islam?

The original NPR story I heard the day of Solyndra's closing included information about the $1B from a prominent Dem/Obama backer.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Sep 13, 2011 -> 12:37 PM) And again, the sad part is that a sizable portion of the Democrats surveyed agree. But that gets lost in the torches and pitchforks for lynching the Tea Party. I already agreed that it was sad to see a decent majority of Democrats sharing those views. That doesn't lessen the support for the narrative that the tea party has strong prejudicial resentment politics at its core.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Sep 13, 2011 -> 12:27 PM) I won't argue with the second part, but the beginning is just hyperbole. In the case of Europe, they don't really have a choice. In our case, we don't have to add to the spending we already have. Not enacting stimulus is not the same as austerity or the calls for expansionary contraction from the GOP this year. You've agreed recently (during the manufactured debt ceiling crisis) that enacting large spending cuts in the near future is a bad idea.

QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Sep 13, 2011 -> 12:25 PM) Well, hate and "unfavorable opinion" are two different things. And really a question like that just elicits an "Americans are number one, everyone else isn't" kind of answer. That doesn't mean they hate them and wish ill upon them. Well you've explicitly made Muslims an "other" or "out" group now from Americans, so I think that reinforces the point. Again, what leap? They think they're un-American. They think they're actively trying to impose fundamentalist religious law. They think that they are not an important part of American religious background. They're opposed to the "ground zero mosque" They have an unfavorable opinion of Islam They're uncomfortable with Muslims teaching elementary school, praying in airports or having a mosque near their home. But none of this amounts to disliking Muslims. Ok.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Sep 13, 2011 -> 12:17 PM) And to me that involves adding more trillions of deficit and debt on an annual basis. The lesson is out there. Whether we choose to learn from it or not is our own choice. Agreed, the lessons, both recently and historically, are that austerity measures in the midst of stagnation or worse are really, really dumb ideas but that it's also important to reduce or eliminate deficits when the economy is performing well.

If you look at Page 29 of the report linked earlier, you'll see a graph "% with a favorable opinion of Muslims" broken down three ways, R-D, con-lib, and Tea Party (agree/disagree) roughly, the numbers appear to be: R: 45% D: 70% Con: 48% Lib: 73% Tea Party: 40% approve/ 60% disapprove So again a pretty strong majority have an unfavorable opinion of Muslims.

QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Sep 13, 2011 -> 12:05 PM) Where did like/hate get into this discussion? Have you never vehemently disagreed with someone without disliking/hating them? I think BS brought it in? anyway we're not talking about someone, we're talking about large groups or ideologies. How can a highly nationalistic person view a group as un-American and not dislike them?

The US is in no danger of default unless we actively choose to do so. Austerity programs still actually hurt the economy and make unemployment and deficits worse during a recession.

QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Sep 13, 2011 -> 11:06 AM) Liberal values are at odds with conservative values that I agree with. So we disagree. There's no "hate" element there. I don't "hate" you or "dislike" you because you think differently. A group that tends to strong nationalism and wears its patriotism on its sleeve feels another group is at odds with American values. How does that not imply that they dislike that group?

QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Sep 13, 2011 -> 11:02 AM) First, "most" as you described it is comparitive, as in, most compared to others. I was saying most as a percentage, which I would take to mean most, as in, say 80% or more. Most and majority are synonyms. You've invented a non-standard definition here. Yes, it's such an unfounded leap to assume that people who believe Islam is at odds with American values hate Islam, especially when said group is also likely to be highly nationalistic. People shy away from hate, fine, can we go with "have an intense disliking and irrational fear of" Muslims?

QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Sep 13, 2011 -> 10:47 AM) First, no, it isn't. ma·jor·i·ty (m-jôr-t, -jr-) n. pl. ma·jor·i·ties 1. The greater number or part; a number more than half of the total. (mst) adj. Superlative of many, much. 1. a. Greatest in number: won the most votes. b. Greatest in amount, extent, or degree: has the most compassion. What gives you reason to reject the Brookings/PRRI study that shows that is is indeed a majority, and a 2/3's majority for "Islam is at odds with American values"

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Sep 13, 2011 -> 10:41 AM) The problem is you have built an artificial and unrealistic governmental dependance in the meantime if you country has gotten to the point that debt has become that big of a problem. Of course spending cuts hurt people, the problem is you have to cut if it has gotten that bad. It's the mountain of unrealistic social spending that caused the problem in the vast majority of the European countries here, and that is what is there to cut. They don't have things like large defense programs to point fingers at. In these cases it is all about too much social spending and building a cycle of dependance on it. Looking at Europe will show you many of the reasons we need to get our house in order before we get to that point. Austerity solutions that actually raise unemployment and lower GDP for at least 5 years don't help solve deficit problems.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Sep 12, 2011 -> 02:40 PM) We haven't exactly done things the conservative way either since Obama took office, so it is kind of hard to just blow them off during this recession. How do you know the problem isn't backwards here? IMF: Austerity boosts unemployment, reduces paychecks

QUOTE (BigSqwert @ Sep 13, 2011 -> 10:08 AM) *prepares for an all out assault in this thread* Well that's just kind of a bizarre one to walk out on. The praise was a little much, but it'd be pretty hard to argue that it was a bad movie. Although to be fair my wife's uncle walked out on it as well, but he had no idea what it was going in.