StrangeSox

QUOTE (Y2HH @ Jun 23, 2015 -> 04:54 PM) I'm sure racism in the south has been solved by the removal of that flag. Again, that's NOT the conversation. I know that's not the conversation, but you and a couple of others keep weirdly pretending that anyone, anywhere is saying that. I'm glad you can finally agree to stop pretending that anyone thinks this or is trying to claim this. That does not mean that we will suddenly have the state government proudly displaying these symbols. And it doesn't end "at home" because people are influenced by many things both inside and outside of the home. While they definitely influence, parents do not and cannot control what their children will come to believe or even what sources of information they'll come into contact with. Blaming it all on Roof's parents just excuses the passive acceptance of white supremacist symbols and ideas and the white supremacist culture prevalent in some places (both in the real world and online). I don't know why you think you can confidently assert that. Y2HH does not get to declare how others use and others perceive symbols with long and proud white supremacist history or the "heritage not hate" apologia papering over the evils of the confederacy and the apartheid south that comes along with it. How and when did the flag with 100+ years of white supremacist history and usage suddenly get cleansed of its racist past? When did the south give up its "Lost Cause"/"War of Northern Aggression" confederate apologia, which I'm pretty sure is still widely taught? I don't think your declaration here actually means anything, but worst-case, a symbol of white supremacy is no longer flying at the SC capitol or as a part of the Mississippi state flag. Even if it leads to nothing else, that's better than the status quo ante.

Nope, still think eliminating state endorsement of white supremacist symbols is part of the "real conversation." Saying "it's just a flag" is telling us to ignore the entire history of that flag and the rotten ideas it represents. There's no good reason to turn a blind eye to that or to tell people who (correctly) perceive it as a symbol of a deeply racist legacy in the south to pretend that it doesn't mean that. That's what it stood for in the 1860's, that what it stood for in the 1960's and that's what it still stands for. I'll again go back to the Germany analogy. The Waffen SS symbol is just some letters. Why can't it just be viewed as a symbol of Germany, no strings attached? Why not fly Nazi flags from government buildings as a symbol of their heritage, not their hate? edit: It's not how "I" choose to view it. It's how, historically and presently, it's been used. It is virtually exclusively white people that endorse that symbol.

QUOTE (Y2HH @ Jun 23, 2015 -> 04:36 PM) Yes. Sorry I don't fit the old mold and view it as a racist symbol, even if that was its historic use. Today, it's just a symbol of the south. It doesn't make me want to hate black people. Well, the white south, anyway.

QUOTE (Y2HH @ Jun 23, 2015 -> 04:29 PM) If it's in the home, and you tell your kids it's because you love slavery or hate black people you'd have a point, but I don't think the majority use that flag as that anymore. I don't even view it as racist so much as a symbol of the south, so it's not doing a very good job of teaching racism. It is literally the symbol of a white supremacist, slave-owning and then apartheid south. Romanticizing that history provides excuses for it. That's the reason South Carolina started flying it in 1961. It's the reason George Wallace adopted it in his presidential campaign. It's the reason it saw a big resurgence starting in the 1950's. Continuing to embrace that symbol is at best passively excusing the evil it has stood for throughout its existence.

i hate you

QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Jun 23, 2015 -> 03:18 PM) Because it's providing some excuse, like maybe he wouldn't think like he does/did if he didn't live in a town that used a racist flag proudly. It's akin to people clamoring to remove Penthouse or something from print after a terrible rape or sexual assault because it's a mysogonist and sexist magazine. One has nothing to do with the other unless you're willing to say that it contributed to it in some way. It "fostered" the view. "Maybe white supremacy would be slightly less widespread if we stopped publicly endorsing symbols of it" doesn't seem like much of a stretch. When white supremacist history is coddled and soft-peddled, it's going to foster white supremacist views. The analogy to Penthouse doesn't work because Penthouse isn't a symbol of pro-rape ideology, wasn't central to the rapists' self-proclaimed motivations and isn't proudly displayed by the state government where the atrocity happened. Some are, now, after a pretty rapid shift (Haley's first reaction was that she didn't see a problem with it). As recently as last year, a big majority of SCer's supported flying it. Many still try to downplay its legacy. Probably because it was a white supremacist terrorist attack on a black church, he openly embraced the flag and the ideology it represents, and it looked particularly awful for the flag representing his ideology to still be flying at full mast while the US and state flags were at half-mast directly behind Haley when she gave her first press conference. I don't disagree with that, but really I don't care so much what their motivations are if their end-result of their actions are good. I think those moves are far less important than ending state endorsement of the symbol, though.

QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Jun 23, 2015 -> 03:02 PM) Also, I sure as heck don't want my kids to be like Pete Rose.

QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Jun 23, 2015 -> 02:53 PM) So again it plays a part in this and his somehow, in someway, to blame. Which takes some of the heat off this guy, even if its just a little bit. How does it remove any of his culpability beyond recognizing that culture and other peoples' ideas influence us all? The flag isn't "to blame," but it is a symbol of the ideology that led him to do this. But that there is even a "controversy" in taking down white supremacist symbols from state buildings is indicative of the problem in the first place. People rightly want the flag taken down. Should the media not report on that? Should they just tell black activists "that's not important, talk about something else"?

Every generation has complained about "lazy kids these days looking for easy street!"

QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Jun 23, 2015 -> 02:42 PM) Then stop talking about it. The removal of white supremacist symbols from government buildings is part of the "real issue." No, you're the ones claiming it's all just a big distraction here. You tell us what we're all being distracted from.

QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Jun 23, 2015 -> 02:39 PM) That's where you and I differ. You're not talking this guy out of his hate. You're not re-educating him. He's not a logical person, clearly. But if you want to keep on with that pipe dream, go ahead. Just know he felt compelled to act because no one else has. He wanted to make an example to start a race war. Maybe if he knew that this sort of act would never get any coverage, he wouldn't have done it. Nobody is specifically concerned about one individual. It is obviously larger than that, and it's about the climates and cultures that breed the Dylan Storms and how to work to end those. Pretending that they don't exist, don't matter and cant' influence anyone isn't the way to address them.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jun 23, 2015 -> 02:37 PM) So what is being done? Southern Poverty Law Center has been advocating against radical white supremacist groups for years and continues to do so now. Groups like #BlackLivesMatter have formed over recent events and will continue to advocate. The NAACP continues to advocate. What is it that isn't being "done" that you think would or could be if people weren't trying to get a symbol of white supremacy taken down?

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jun 23, 2015 -> 02:36 PM) Pretending the flag is the problem I don't know how many ways it can be said that nobody believes that. The flag is a symbol, and people want to see a symbol of hatred expunged. Nobody is under the delusion that this will somehow magically solve racism.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jun 23, 2015 -> 02:35 PM) The assumption that calling this a distraction means you want to see the flag fly is insulting. Insisting that people who want to see symbols of white supremacy removed from government buildings are only talking about distractions and don't care about "real issues" is insulting.

QUOTE (Y2HH @ Jun 23, 2015 -> 02:34 PM) So in either case, no progress gets made...so what did this actually accomplish other than get people talking about Walmart? A symbol of white supremacy gets taken off of government buildings and becomes more universally recognized for what it symbolizes. I'd say that's at least a small amount of progress.

QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Jun 23, 2015 -> 02:32 PM) I think it would be far healthier for this country to ignore this s***. Don't give this guy the time of day. Don't show his picture, don't spread his name, don't cite to his website, etc. It's a tragedy, the survivors deserve some recognition, but leave it at that. Making it a story, in particular a story about race relations or a stupid flag, only emboldens these crazies to commit these acts for publicity. I think it would be monumentally stupid to completely ignore the reasons that people do things, the ideologies that drive them and the sources of those ideologies and just chalk it all up to 'crazy'. Nobody "made" it a story about race except the guy who killed nine black people because of their race and his racist beliefs. You cannot separate that from the story, and you cannot separate the legacy of white supremacist violence in this country.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jun 23, 2015 -> 02:26 PM) So what else is being done? I am not seeing anything of value. Did our President have a big discussion about race relations that I missed? Did the governments of MS and SC bring sides to the table to address the extremist points of view? Everything I see has guys taking down the flag, calling it a victory, and walking away. What would you like to see "done?" What would it even mean to "bring sides to the table to address the extremist points of view?" Sit down with some white supremacist militia groups and discuss ideology with them over a cup of tea?

QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Jun 23, 2015 -> 02:27 PM) Seriously? Have you been hiding under a rock the last 30 years? The nation has the patience of a 2 year old with stuff like this. As soon as another story hits in a day or two, this thing will be forgotten. How's that Baltimore police story coming along? Lots of movement there i'm sure. So let's say instead nobody said a word about the flag and we just talked in platitudes about "race relations" and "this psychotic lone wolf." What are we left with when this thing is 'forgotten'?

QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Jun 23, 2015 -> 02:26 PM) No one with a brain objects to that, it's the distraction that I have an issue with. A majority of Carolinians object to it. I think people who keep insisting it's a "distraction" have an issue with the desire to see it taken down. What is it a distraction from and why aren't you advocating for that?

Lost in all of this "who cares, symbols are meaningless" protestation about taking down the flag is an argument that taking down the flags somehow precludes anything else. I don't see why state governments displaying symbols of white supremacy isn't a "real issue." I don't see why removing symbols of white supremacy from government displays isn't a step in the right direction. I don't see how removing those symbols harms further advances in any way. Why shouldn't we care what people who support flying white supremacist symbols think? They're every bit a part of the "real issue" as anyone else, and in states like South Carolina, they represent a majority (in 2014, 61% of South Carolinians felt the flag should still fly and 42% felt 'strongly'). Denial of our history and our legacy is central to those ill-formed perspectives, and coddling Lost Cause nostalgia and ongoing Confederate celebration only adds to that.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jun 23, 2015 -> 02:18 PM) Nah, now you just pushed sales underground and made it more profitable. Great argument for WalMart selling Waffen SS gear and Nazi paraphernalia.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jun 23, 2015 -> 02:16 PM) Unless you are trying to tell me that the confederate flag motivated him to kill, over everything else, then yes, this is not the thing we should be talking about. Gun Control at least makes sense to discuss, because that at least had the potential to stop this. The rebel flag? Not so much. Think about it, with police brutality, we actually talked about police tactics. Man goes and kills a bunch of black people, shouldn't we be talking about race relation, instead of symbology? Nah, this will distract people from the real issues because no one is comfortable with actually talking about race relations in this country because some one will get offended. That state governments still fly a symbol of white supremacy and that so many try to make excuses for it is emblematic of race relations. If it's this damn hard to get a symbol taken down over objections, why do you think the people who oppose removing white supremacist symbols are at all interested in "actually talking about race relations"?

QUOTE (Y2HH @ Jun 23, 2015 -> 02:15 PM) See, this I have no issue with...I get this. It's that it's being taken further than that, and it feels downright cheap now. I haven't seen many activists calling for WalMart etc. to stop selling this merchandise. I understand that it seems opportunistic, but I still accept that crass commercial motivations or not, it's a positive good if a symbol of white supremacy becomes unacceptable to display prominently and to sell for profit.

QUOTE (Y2HH @ Jun 23, 2015 -> 02:13 PM) I'm sure all the white supremacists in the world will now reform their wayward ways and become good people since they lost their icon. Can I post a few more times and a few more quotes from people explicitly saying that this isn't some magic bullet that will solve everything and that nobody believes it is? At the very least, the states of South Carolina and Mississippi will be reforming their ways and will stop flying a symbol of white supremacy. It's an incremental step, but it's a step in the right direction.

QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Jun 23, 2015 -> 02:07 PM) Shoot, this is some good PR. Walmart, Ebay, and now Amazon. The white supremcy flag was fine last week, but "Oh! A national story?! We're not cool with it now either!" The fact that it still works on the American people really saddens me. The fact that so many Americans seem to have more of an objection to calls for taking the flag of white supremacists off of state capitols than to the flag itself is pretty pathetic.