StrangeSox

QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Aug 19, 2014 -> 04:17 PM) Are these the same witnesses that said he was shot in the back as he was running away? Which doesn't seem likely now? These are the same witnesses who said the officer fired at Brown as he was running away. They initially believed he had been hit in the back. Being wrong about whether or not he was actually hit from behind doesn't really call the whole situation into question. That's pretty messed up. You should absolutely care if he ran away and if the officer fired at him while he was fleeing or if he put his hands up. Attacking a cop isn't carte blanche for the cop to summarily execute you for assault.

QUOTE (DrunkBomber @ Aug 19, 2014 -> 04:15 PM) If the reports of the police having guns fired at them and molotov cocktails being thrown at them is true than I dont really blame them for being overly cautious. There might be a peaceful group protesting but its not really reasonable to expect the cops to be able to fully know what every mobs intentions are. When there are people going around lawlessly looting stores, shooting at cops, starting fires unfortunately they ruin it for the peaceful protesters. Im all for freedom of the press as well but in this case it seems like a handful of media outlets are going out of their way to fire up the crowds. Then there are also situations like this where a journalist is straight up getting attacked by a mob of looters. Its possible the cops asked them to leave to avoid stuff like this to prevent them from getting hurt and they refused to listen. there was no rioting or looting going on at the time of many of the incidents of overreaction.

QUOTE (RockRaines @ Aug 19, 2014 -> 04:14 PM) Thats a hell of a jump. If I am walking through an area where there are riots and I dont listen to multiple warnings about gassing and then get gassed, then it would be more accurate to the scenario. quit making that bad, wrong assumption that there are constant riots here. There weren't riots anywhere near the al jazeera crew--I don't think there were any riots that night period. There definitely weren't riots inside of McDonalds. The guy with multiple M4's pointed at him wasn't rioting.

QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Aug 19, 2014 -> 04:10 PM) While those types of cops out there exist, and they're mostly control freaks and assholes, you still bite your tongue and follow their instructions. And you do that because you know that it's just going to be a bigger pain in the ass if you speak up. My wife and I just had this happen to us over parking (standing) in a handicap spot for literally 5 seconds. I wanted to scream at the cop and get his badge number and raise hell for being an asshole about the whole thing. But ya know what, I didn't. And after 3 minutes he gave us a warning and let us go. And while I was pissed, it was done and over with and life moved on. Had I been an ass about it, it would have been 100 times worse i'm sure. Sure, but think of it as a form of victim-blaming. You could change a few words and it could be advice to just take any criminal action short of death passively because you might just anger the person into harming you even more otherwise. It's not that it's necessarily wise to criticize an officer, it's just that there's zero reason to accept that there's a decent number of officers who would react to being questioned or called names by beating, tasering or shooting someone. Think about that; he's trying to at least partially justify physical violence in response to insulting a cop. Why should any of us find that acceptable? Only if they're petty authoritarians will they lash out because someone dared to question them.

QUOTE (RockRaines @ Aug 19, 2014 -> 04:02 PM) What's a legitimate warning? You need to move to another area-yes sir. Since when is listening to police about moving optional? By this logic, every police action is justified by default. Reporting on police abuse and overreaction? The police can just tell you to "move along, nothing to see here" and then gas you with impunity.

QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Aug 19, 2014 -> 03:56 PM) And as we discussed one of those witnesses admitted that she left to go get her phone so she really didn't see what happened. Who's the second? I'm only aware of that woman and the partner. The stories are starting to mix together. There was Piaget Crenshaw, who saw the shooting and then got her phone to record the aftermath. I haven't seen anything indicating that she did not see the shooting, and I can't find anything on google. There was also Tiffany Mitchell, who told a story very similar to Crenshaw's version of events. There was one tweet from a local reporter. We have zero information other than someone with the police told her that. Why should we have any level of confidence in such a vague tweet? The struggle beforehand has been part of the story since the beginning. I don't know what you mean by victimless crime here, you must have meant something else. Brown stole some cigars. He also apparently struggled with the officer, possibly trying to reach for his weapon. But at some point, Brown turned and ran. That is not in dispute at this point. Once that occurs, the police officer isn't justified to keep firing at Brown. If the officer shot and killed Brown in an unjustified shooting, then he was just another criminal, someone who committed a far worse crime than stealing a box of cigars.

QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Aug 19, 2014 -> 03:51 PM) And yet doing that would stop about 90% of the problems with cops. As I said before, if you feel wronged, be civilized and use the court system. Don't exacerbate the problem and get yourself in a worse mess than is necessary. This assumes that you can have faith in internal affairs audits or judicial proceedings in these sorts of cases. Didn't bmags post something about there never being a single officer-involved shooting ruled unjustified in Wisconsin, ever? You'd be surprised! But more to the point, it makes cops out to be dumb babies incapable of controlling their emotions. If you can't do your job without resorting to violence because someone argued with you or called you a racist, then find a new job.

QUOTE (RockRaines @ Aug 19, 2014 -> 03:49 PM) LOL, the video starts at the firing of the gas, most likely after many warnings were given to clear the area. Once again there is no way they fired gas without warning. This assumes that their demands and warnings, if they had happened, were legitimate in the first place. Either way, the best defense that the police managed to mount in that case was that "it wasn't us! we don't know who fired it! either way, it definitely wasn't intentional!" http://www.ksdk.com/story/news/local/2014/...r-gas/14042747/ There wasn't anything going on in the area and the police haven't even tried to justify their actions in that case. They've been arresting journalists and protesters, detaining them overnight without any charges. They've dispersed peaceful crowds with tear gas and sound cannons. They've had dozens of deadly weapons pointed at unarmed civilians. Like I said, this isn't even controversial. The state police were brought in because of the overreaction during the first week.

QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Aug 19, 2014 -> 03:35 PM) It's really not though. You've got a big kid that both witnesses and the cops agree attacked the cop in question. That alone makes him the least sympathetic victim possible. But on top of that, the big rallying cry was an unconfirmed - and at this point I think completely discredited - "my hands are up, don't shoot!" situation. That never happened. The only evidence of that was a witness statement coming from Brown's partner in crime. That is false. At least two other independent witnesses said the same thing. Why do you feel that the shooting was completely justified at this point?

QUOTE (RockRaines @ Aug 19, 2014 -> 03:35 PM) so they never told the people to move for a legit reason, they just pulled up to a crowd and gassed people? LOL, come on. Yes, they absolutely did just that, just like when they arrested journalists for being in a McDonalds and slammed them into the pop machine on the way out the door. I mean, this isn't even controversial at this point. The ridiculous overreaction is exactly why state police were brought in, because the county SWAT assholes had no idea what they were doing. edit: here is video of the al jazeera incident. notice the wanna be rambo in the background pointing his M4 down the street at the journalists who ran back from the tear gas. http://www.ksdk.com/videos/news/local/2014/08/14/14042891/

http://gawker.com/cop-pens-touching-op-ed-...wont-1623985263 This mindset is absolutely part of the problem, that police are never to be questioned and always to be obeyed.

QUOTE (RockRaines @ Aug 19, 2014 -> 02:55 PM) They are also reporting that the police are using unjust force when the media wont listen to them for their own safety. When the police ask you 25 times to move back or to go to another location because there is violence, you refusing and then inhaling tear gas is your own fault. I don't know why you keep depicting the situation as that. Maybe that has happened in some cases, but there's already a bunch of incidents of police arresting or gassing or assaulting journalists and non-violent protesters who are nowhere near a violent crowd.

QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Aug 19, 2014 -> 02:50 PM) Are you serious? Go read the first 5-10 pages of this thread. It was a constant argument about how s***ty police are and how this guy murdered a wonderful, saint of a human being in cold blood. I'm sure there were plenty of unwritten disclaimers that those opinions were all pending confirmation of what actually happened, right? I read through the first six pages and there wasn't anything like that. There was strong criticism of the actions of the police, but that criticism was related to the after-shooting actions, not the shooting itself.

QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Aug 19, 2014 -> 01:37 PM) And the anger and frustration was based on unknown information. The people in the neighborhood saw "black kid shot dead by cop" and immediately concluded it was unjustified murder. The news media grabbed ahold of that narrative and ran with it. Never once have I read or heard anyone from the media say "that's just what one witness says, we don't actually know the full story yet." Well, it's been multiple witnesses that said that, plus leaving his body laying in the street for four hours, plus the police immediately circling the wagons that drove the initial events. The news media was barely covering the story the first weekend, so it doesn't seem correct to say that the reaction was driven by the media. edit: do people really need disclaimers that "a witness says" isn't meant to be a 100% accurate and complete report of the events?

the police said days ago that Wilson suffered facial injuries in the struggle, I'm not sure what "the media" did wrong there? edit: the national media ignored this story for several days. there was anger and frustration in Ferguson well before it became a national news story.

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I haven't seen a rubber bullet, but I have a bag of that exact earplug in my desk. They're about 3/4" long and are made from a very soft foam rubber.

QUOTE (RockRaines @ Aug 19, 2014 -> 11:31 AM) Last night there were no shots apparently. Previously they have only used bean bags or rubber. he's referring to this: http://www.news.com.au/technology/online/h...f-1227029281902

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Aug 19, 2014 -> 11:30 AM) Were they shooting the ear plugs at them again? that was pretty funny

QUOTE (RockRaines @ Aug 19, 2014 -> 11:22 AM) You can easily see it with your own eyes if you turn on the TV and watch live feeds. The police are trying to balance between allowing a protest and keeping people safe. A shooting happens literally a block away from the crowd so the police try to move the people out of the area to stop any further violence. The very notion that the Police are trying to tell them to do anything, even if its for their own safety is all of a sudden the craziest thing ever. If someone at that moment threw another molotov cocktail and it happened to injure those peaceful protesters or media the Police wouldnt be doing enough. I'd love to hear options on how to better ensure the safety of innocent people vs the violence that can and will occur every night. It a miracle it hasnt been worse. I admittedly have not seen the live coverage since Friday. For the first week, the police response was a drastic overreaction. Things may have changed for the better since then, but the response during the first week is still an issue. QUOTE (bmags @ Aug 19, 2014 -> 11:25 AM) But, I don't know if this is ss's point, but it also could have been a lot better had the response not been so heavy handed and tonedeaf to the original peaceful protests. There have been too many cooks in the kitchen, they set up Johnson, well received, they immediately cut his legs out from under him. That is a part of it. If you take a strong, heavily armed posture, you're going to raise tensions and set everyone on edge from the get-go. There was rioting that first Sunday, and the county police decided the best response was a crackdown on everybody and anybody, including journalists. M4s and woodland camo pants are not needed on the streets of Ferguson, MO. That isn't riot or crowd control gear.

Going back to whether Wilson chased after Brown or not, I just saw this from Piaget Crenshaw, one of the first witnesses and one of the ones who claims Wilson shot Brown with his hand in the air. So, setting aside whether Brown turned around and put his arms in the air or turned around and gestured and charged at Wilson, it does seem like Wilson ran after Brown.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Aug 19, 2014 -> 11:00 AM) So what are your thoughts on residential solar? You guys probably are not getting this yet because of your location, but we've had massive advertising this past year for residential solar. Basically, the company installs a rooftop system free of charge but makes you sign a power purchase agreement for 20-30 years. The utilities are not pleased with this because we're the ones who've paid (and continue to maintain) for the infrastructure (the distribution system) to make this possible. I've seen solar everywhere in the country except for the Midwest. Even up in the New England area, there was a ton of residential solar, and the Pacific NW as well. I'm 100% in support of a more distributed energy system, and rooftop solar seems like an important part of mid- to long-term energy infrastructure. I understand the basics of the distribution system funding issue, but I'm not sure the best way to address that.

I mean, how on earth could you say that this isn't an overreaction: These are protesters on the streets of an American city. This isn't a war zone. Hell, veterans from actual war zones have pointed out how stupid this posture is.

QUOTE (RockRaines @ Aug 19, 2014 -> 10:51 AM) They arent "tear gassing journalists" they are shooting tear gas into an area of violent protesters after many warnings that its going to happen. No, they have tear gassed journalists who were setting up equipment next to their news van. I posted the pictures and videos and links pages ago. This was last week. I also watched some of the live coverage last week. They were shooting tear gas into completely peaceful crowds. Because they have a right if not a duty to cover the news? Because you're being silly when you paint everything as a "violent mob?" They have pointed a bunch of deadly force and unarmed people. That in itself is an overreaction. The pictures and videos have been posted in this thread and they're easily googled. They did return fire in that shooting that IIRC was unrelated but in the area a week or so ago.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Aug 19, 2014 -> 10:38 AM) Especially now, with some of the threats that power plants have come under recently. Taking down the signage is more to keep low-level stuff away, pretty much just protesters, e.g. Y-12 incident.